You've got to have a big book that it's written in, if you want to be taken seriously. That's the key.
Israel - The Right to exist as a State?
- Thread starter Goober
- Start date
The Native American "holocaust" happened before the media could latch onto it, not to mention the fact they dont own the media like the jews do. Every time the Israels do something or someone speaks out against them they play the holocaust get out of jail free card.
People who believe this issue is "complicated" or "difficult to understand" should read your post. In two sentences you have summarized everything that's happened since 1947. What makes it complicated are all the distortions and contradictions which result when Israeli apologists attempt to portray 60+ plus years of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by a regional super power against a powerless and oppressed people sound like self defense against overwhelming odds.
Goober asks if Israel has a right to exist as a state. I would say yes, provided that Israel finally meets the agreed conditions for UN recognition.
Except Israel never met these conditions:
Israel blocks/restricts access to many Holy Places.
They have militarily occupied Jerusalem, declared it their capital and are in the process of cleansing it of residents who aren't Jewish.
Israel has not allowed a single refugee to return home. They have never paid a cent in compensation. Instead, they confiscated their property. People lost their businesses, bank accounts, farms, and most of their possessions. Confiscated homes were awarded directly to Jewish immigrants. Israel razed hundreds of ethnically cleansed villages to the ground and built Jewish only colonies over the ruins including ancient burial grounds and cemeteries.
Today, Israel is about as "peace loving" as they were when they declared independence.
Lehi (Hebrew pronunciation: [ˈlɛxi], Hebrew acronym for Lohamei Herut Israel, "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel," לח"י - לוחמי חרות ישראל) was an armed underground Zionist group in Mandatory Palestine.[1] Its goal was to forcibly evict the British authorities from Palestine, allowing unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state. It was initially called the National Military Organization in Israel.[2] The Lehi is also referred to, after its founder, Avraham Stern, as the Stern Group or (the name used by the British) Stern Gang.[3]...
German cover letter from January 11, 1941 attached to a description of an offer for an alliance with Nazi Germany attributed to Lehi.
...In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. It offered assistance in "transferring" the Jews of Europe, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine. Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig. Lubenchik told von Hentig that Lehi had not yet revealed its full power and that they were capable of organizing a whole range of anti-British operations...
...On 6 November 1944 Lehi assassinated Lord Moyne in Cairo. Moyne was the highest ranking British government representative in the region...
...January 12, 1947, Lehi members drove a truckload of explosives into a British police station in Haifa killing four and injuring 140...
...During the lead-up to the 1948 Arab-Israeli war the Cairo-Haifa train was mined several times. On February 29, 1948, Lehi mined the train north of Rehovot, killing 28 soldiers and wounding 35. On March 31, the train was mined near Binyamina killing 40 civilians and wounding 60....
...On 9 April 1948, independently of the Nachshon operation but with the agreement of the Haganah, about 120 members of Lehi and Irgun attacked the village. They massacred between 100 and 120 inhabitants of the village, mostly civilians.[38]... ...According to Morris, "the most important immediate effect of the atrocity and the media campaign that followed it was how one started to report the fear felt in Palestinian towns and villages, and, later, the panicked fleeing from them."[40]
Another important repercussion was within the Arab population of neighbouring Arab states, which, once again, increased its pressure on the representatives of these states to intervene and come to the aid of the Palestinians.[40][41]...
...The conflict between Lehi and mainstream Jewish and subsequently Israeli organizations came to an end when Lehi was formally dissolved and integrated into the Israeli Defense Forces on May 31, 1948, its leaders getting amnesty from prosecution or reprisals...
...17 September 1948, Lehi assassinated UN mediator Count Folke Bernadotte who had been sent to broker a settlement in the dispute. The assassination was directed by Yehoshua Zettler and carried out by a four-man team led by Meshulam Makover...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)
My point is that Israel was founded by terrorists who started an ethnic cleansing war which continues to this day. Israel has never been "peace-loving". Not then and certainly not now.
United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza conflict
Therefore Israel has never met the original conditions they ageed to for UN recognition. A good analogy would be buying a brand new car for an agreed price and then never paying a cent. How many car dealerships would go along with that "agreement".
That's why I'm in favor of revoking Israel's UN recognition until they finally meet the agreed conditions for recognition. Until then they should have the same level of UN recognition as Palestine.
Last edited:
Canaduh
Your quote "the fact they dont own the media like the jews do. Every time the Israels do something or someone speaks out against them they play the holocaust get out of jail free card".
I had hoped that hate would not creep into this forum -
But Canaduh I have the opinion you would be quite comfortable at an Aryan Nations meeting. Well would you
EAO
You are always in favor of anything that punishes Israel - The reality you cannot face is they both got into it and they both have to get out of it - You are in favor of Israel being a State but Israel has made offers - Blaming everything on Israel is unrealistic and simplistic and shows a clear bias of hate. -
You are always in favor of anything that punishes Israel - The reality you cannot face is they both got into it and they both have to get out of it - You are in favor of Israel being a State but Israel has made offers - Blaming everything on Israel is unrealistic and simplistic and shows a clear bias of hate. -
Israel has a right to exist like America has a right to exist.
All countries has a right to exist.
Palistinians has a right to live in peace and all they have to do is lay down their weapons and give up.
All countries has a right to exist.
Palistinians has a right to live in peace and all they have to do is lay down their weapons and give up.
I think that's the sticking point, the giving up part.
Many people will fight long and hard to reclaim what was taken from them. The middle east will be a battle zone until both sides learn to compromise and co-exist.
Ten Penny
A common thread that runs thru many posters is that Israel does not have the right to exist because it was literally destroyed and conquered by various countries over the many and I mean many years.
If that were valid then we only have to look at the 20th century to see how the world has changed - many countries that had disappeared suddenly existed and set their own course -
It is only Israel that has to continually justify their right to a State - Yes it disapeared but it became a reality on May 1 1948.
How many countries were told that if they declared themselves a State that they would be wiped off the map and we know what was meant by " wiped off the map" mass genocide-
If you check Every Arab State in the region declared War on Israel - and against all odds they won -
Not one Military strategist thought they would survive a War -
6 million Jews against 90 million well armed Arabs that could openly procure arms from most countries quite easily.
Clearly they never considered that when you now everyone will be slaughtered if you lose - well that was what drove a rag tag Israel Military to win. - If anyone doubts what would have occurred then check your history
Prior to the French -Prussian war of 1870 when the War was over and reparations were made by the losing country - very little land was lost - But this War was different and set the path for future wars - German absorbed Alsace - Lorraine -
The same occurred after WW1 & 2 -
I have included some maps to show how much the world changed and you will see massive transfers of land as part of the reparations - Germany is a prime example.
http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/ottoman_empire_1914.htm
Ottoman Empire 1914
WHKMLA : Historical Atlas, Germany Page
Germany 1914
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/russia/haxrussia.html
Russia 1914
http://www.troy.k12.oh.us/~THS/Social_Studies/PDF/Spheres.pdf
China 1914
http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/imperialism_asia_map.htm
Asia 1914
http://www.scribd.com/doc/217593/Map-The-World-in-1945
World map 1945
When did that ever work? Can you give some historical examples where giving up led oppressed people to freedom and justice?
Do you think that tactic would work in other situations? For example, do you think that's the approach the Canadian military should take against the Taliban.
Also from your answer, it appears the you believe all Palestinians resisting Israel are armed and violent. Are you aware of Bil'in?
Israel has a long record of abusing unarmed non-violent protestors. See for yourself:
YouTube - Israeli soldier shoots unarmed prisoner
That's how the Israeli military treats unarmed non-violent protestors. The soldiers in the video were taken to court but their charges were dismissed and the officer got a promotion.
But if you sincerely believe Israel's leaders would offer Palestinians a fair and just peace if they were unarmed, then please explain why that didn't happen between 1949 (ceasefire) and 1964? (when some of them became armed and formed the PLO) During that time, Palestinians were mostly unarmed and waiting passively for freedom and justice. Despite promises by Israel, the US and the UN, that never happened. Instead Israel passed laws to seize all their property, razed hundreds of villages to the ground and built Jewish only enclaves thoughout the region. If what you say is true about Israel then Palestinians should have won freedom and justice during that 15 year period. Instead Israel screwed them over and over and over... while the UN ignored their complaints. That's why some of them became armed in 1964.
Let's cut to the chase. Israel has no intention of ever giving back what they've taken from Palestinians or compensating them for their loss. Their longterm goal is the complete annexation of Palestinian land. Palestinians are a "problem" for the Israelis and none of their "solutions" include Palestinian freedom and justice. If these people are ever going to have freedom and justice they are going to have to fight for it.
I don't support violence, but I do support the approach taken by the villagers of Bi'lin. In order for their non-violent approach to work, people have to be aware of their struggle and care. You are now aware, but do you care?
bilin-village.org | News
I think it has something to do with the legality of UN Resolution 181 in the first place and that document wasn't followed even slightly by the Jews. Making refugees of the existing population voided that paper, that was their only claim to being there today.
The God imposed exile is to last until Christ's return, that is an event that cannot be mistaken for anything else than what it is. If the dead haven't risen then God is not involved. No end-time event can last longer than 10 years. Christ flattens the whole of Israel, builds His temple (complete with living water in the form of a wide river) and then the Jews are invited home. If it doesn't follow that pattern then God is not involved, oh almost forgot, every sinner (murderers, thieves, etc)in the world would be dead.
How many of the 13 are within one days travel?
Against: 13
Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.
UN General Assembly Resolution 181: Palestine Partition Plan of 1947
The 'war of Independeance' was 5 1/2 months old for the Jews already, that is how long they had been killing Arabs or making them refugees in violation of UN 181.
"
According to Benny Morris, the result of these five and a half months of fighting was a "decisive Jewish victory". On one side, the "Palestinian Arab military power was crushed" and most of the population was fleeing or had been driven out. On the other side, the "Haganah transformed from a militia into an army" and succeeded "in consolidating its hold on a continuous strip of territory embracing the Coastal Plain, the Jezreel Valley, and the Jordan Valley". The Yishuv proved it had the capability to defend itself, persuading the United States and the remaining of the world to support it and the "victory over the Palestinian Arabs gave the Haganah the experience and self-confidence [...] to confront [...] the invading armies of the Arab states." [161]
On 14 May 1948, David Ben-Gurion declared the independence of the state of Israel and the 1948 Palestine war entered its second phase with the intervention of the Arab state armies and the beginning of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War."
http://wapedia.mobi/en/1947–1948_Civil_War_in_Mandatory_Palestine?t=5.#5.
Its possible to be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic. I think you read too much into his post. He's just observed that everytime Israel commits yet another horrendous atrocity, the news ignores it and prints yet another story about the holocaust instead.
For example:
January 29, 2010 Google News Search
Results 1 – 10 of about 13,642 for holocaust
Results 1 – 10 of about 3,587 for goldstone
Results 1 – 10 of about 974 for rwanda genocide
Why does the news have 13,642 stories about a 60 year old event, yet far less about the Goldstone Report which is about recent Israeli atrocities? Even the Rwandan genocide doesn't get nearly as much attention as the Holocaust. Can you name another event as old as the holocaust which has more than 13,000 active google linked news stories?
Personally I interpreted his observation along this lines:
I doubt Finklestein would be any more comfortable among an "Aryan Nations" than Canaduh.
If you really want to discuss this issue civilly, you are going to have to stop assuming that everyone who is shocked and outraged at Israel's ongoing war crimes and crimes against humanity must be supporter of the Aryan Nation.
Israel has a right to beg leave of the world to exist as soon as it is defined by fixed permanent borders. How can anyone agree to the undefined.
I criticize Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity, not any religious group or race. I have only supported the universal application of international laws, treaties and conventions. Israel has gotten away with murder literally and repeatedly and my posts on this subject are about justice and freedom. I have never said anything negative about Jews or Judaism, because I fully support freedom of religion.
Speaking of simplistic, how is it that everytime someone criticizes Israel you automatically assume they are anti-Semitic. For all you know, Canaduh could be Jewish.
For all you know my dear Sainted Aunt had a set of nuts - Please be realistic -