H1N1 Vaccine - An American Perspective

[TenPenny]

Vitamins and other herbal remedies work but it is up to us to study which to use and when. We are a culture of pill poppers, 90% of which is useless.

So you'll take your 'vitamins' and 'herbal remedies' in the form of pills, while you complain about pill poppers. You do realize that the main difference between 'herbal' remedies and pharmaceuticals is that pharmaceuticals are more controlled, and produced under strict rules, whereas herbal rememdies are whatever the hell someone wants to put out and call a remedy.

 

[JLM]

I notice though that you completely ignored my points on the actual article.

Lively discussion is great so long as one can actually look critically at the article.

See, the big issue I'm having is that people assume someone is either NATURAL, or PHARMACEUTICAL. They assume that one listens exclusively to one or the other. Which is bunk. The majority of remedies in my house are natural ones. I avoid prescriptions unless my natural route doesn't fix something (diet, exercise, herbs, etc).

But even I know pharm is sometimes necessary, and saw several flaws in the logic and the numbers he was using for his argument. For that people assume I listen only to one side. Lame.

I think most people are a portion of each, Karrie. I've been on a minimal dose of a drug for many many years just to prevent my blood pressure from veering beyond the high side of normal. Through lots of physical activity and sensible eating I been able to remain strong and healthy, but I think if I gave up that one drug I'd be putting my health at some risk and if I quit the eating and exercise routine, I'd probably go to hell pretty fast. What's important is to take care of what you can first with lifestyle and if that doesn't quite do teh trick then take the medicine. Even if the medicine is a bunch of subversive crap, at least when getting plenty of exercise your body can better handle the crap.

 

[gerryh]

Incidentally, the "facts" I put on my post #30 were just copied out of the article, as someone mentioned there were no facts. I didn't create them, but I do agree with them.

Sorry...again I say, you have shown no "facts" to back up YOUR or the authors contentions. Both you and he take figures given by the CDC and then EXTEND them with no factual support for that extension, only your own biased suppositions.

 

[JLM]

Ha, ha...good point on '59, JLM. Confusing ain't the word for it - it's mind-boggling to try and sort out all the wheat from the chaff. As far as I know, the human body hasn't evolved or changed much since the 50s, but the stuff that goes into it these days certainly has. I'm not just talking about the food, but all the "fixer-uppers", both prescription and over the counter medicines, supplements, etc.

On the precription side of things, I personally believe the drug world has gone a bit nuts. For example, all these super bugs we hear about are coming from overuse of prescribed antibiotics, from what I can gather. When the drug companies design a stronger antibiotic, the bacteria mutate and get stronger to overcome it. Then, it's back to the lab for a stronger antibiotic, and...well, it's a pretty vicious cycle. I have heard that one of the reasons for this widespread prescribing of these things is that the average immune system isn't as strong as it used to be, and needs "help" in fighting off infections and certain diseases. And that is likely because of the deteriorating quality of the average diet...too many processed foods, as one example.

Apparently Vitamin D (D3, I believe) is quite effective at boosting the immune system and many people take it in the winter when we have less sunshine (in Canada). My understanding is that sunshine helps the body to produce Vitamin D. Anyway, most of the "tinfoil hatters" (or whatever that term is) believe that Vitamin D is more effective than a flu shot in fighting off the flu, simply because if the immune system is strong enough, it'll ward it off...in other words, do its job. And Vitamin D doesn't have side effects, if taken properly.

Well, that's one side of the discussion anyway...

While most of us were raised to believe what "the doctor" tells us and never question things (after all, the doctor is a trained professional), the growth in naturpathic medicine in the past few years has been incredible. As far as I know, those folks don't recommend vaccines in general, but I could be wrong (and I'm sure someone will help me there by pointing it out!)...

Here's why I started getting interested in the subject - a few years ago, my brother suffered a heart attack and had to have triple-bypass surgery. A bit of a life-changing experience. He didn't have that bad a lifestyle...ate a lot of organic foods, didn't smoke, didn't drink heavily (except when we got together for a bit too much wine now and again), and generally didn't eat junk food.

As I was his "next of kin" (he's never married), I was with him for most of the tests, surgery, etc. The specialists told him he would have to be on statin drugs for the rest of his life, and so he went along with that for about a year. The side effects of those drugs were pretty hard on him...basicially turned him into an "old man", with lots of muscle pain, etc. He ended up being barely able to walk. The doctors told him that was just the price he had to pay...

Well, being a bit of a bull-headed type (unlike me ), he went on a bit of a personal crusade to figure out what this was all about...to make a 2 year-long story short, he signed up with a naturopathic doctor and started to figure out ways to get off the drugs (he was on some other ones, but I can't remember what they were). The regular doctors told him he would surely die (one of them was really adamant about it), but as brother said, "I'd rather be dead than live with the side effects, so to hell with you" and he opposed them head-on. Well, "ignored" might be a better word.

He read everything he could get his hands on, questioned everything, (he's a Chartered Accountant and lis good at details!), and eventually took the step to get off the drugs. He doesn't take a great variety of supplements and eats a good diet, exercises, etc., but the real payoff is that he's healthy...tests check out great all time, he feels great, is physically active, and is enjoying life again. It's been about 3 years now since he got off the drugs.

An experience like that - and close to "home" - does open one's eyes to the whole picture. My brother has continued his interest in all things healthy (food, vitamin supplements, etc.) and he still studies, questions, researches all the information he can find...he doesn't take it all at face value, but I think he has ended up with a knowledge level far above the average person.

He doesn't have a lot of respect for the way drug companies peddle their wares these days...that's not to say they're all bad, but when you get to the point where some of them want people to take drugs to "prevent disease", you have to wonder if perhaps it's gone a bit too far.

They didn't do that in '59! :lol:

This thread has promoted so much discussion that I'm thinking about putting one up on "energy healing"...I'm a step ahead of my brother on that one, and I am sure it will promote some lively discussion! Coming soon... ;-)

There is one other little problem that I don't think anyone has touched on. Eons ago when we went to the doctor we went because we had no idea what was wrong with us and generally speaking we listened to him and followed his advise and generally we recovered (but that was before the days where we had so many other things screwing us up) Now days a lot of people go to see the doctor to tell him what's wrong with them, hoping to get some advise that they'd like to follow. I remember years ago one doctor told a patient "if you are not going to do what I tell you there is absolutely no use in you coming back to see me", can't remember just which way that one went but anyway the advise was good. Today there is too much of a desire to serve the public and make them comfortable rather than make them well.

 

[karrie]

Sorry Karrie, I certainly didn't mean to ignore any points here. Been running like crazy around here, in and out of the house. I'll be re-reading everything soon...

A quick note though...I do happen to believe the article, but it's not the first or only one I've read on the subject...there are lots of them out there. I certainly don't expect everyone to believe them, as we're all entitled to our own opinions and we will follow them, of course. I didn't put up the article to start a bunch of fights, insults, and name-calling either - to me, that's a waste of time.

I thought it was an interesting and timely (and yes, a bit provocative) look at the subject, and that it was worth some discussion. I have no interest in forcing my opinions on other people - but a good discussion always has some value as it never hurts to look around and see what's going on outside of our own sphere of opinions.

Incidentally, the "facts" I put on my post #30 were just copied out of the article, as someone mentioned there were no facts. I didn't create them, but I do agree with them.

My big issue country boy is that, yes, the FACT is that the author is right... the vaccine will not lower your risk of dying from H1N1 if you catch it anyway. But he pretends that's something people aren't told. They tell you that when you get the vaccine. You still run a risk of getting it, and if you get it, then it will be just as virile as it is in someone who doesn't get it.

What the vaccine does do, is lower your risk of contracting the bug, but not to "ZERO" as the author asserts (again, his emphasis, not mine). He completely fabricates that 'fact'.

And my further issue is that many of the numbers he plays with from that point on, are supposition, not FACT. He states clearly at the beginning of the article that there are no fact based numbers to work with.

 

[VanIsle]

I heard that the H1N1 vaccine saves more lives than it takes. The problem is that the vaccine takes lives so it is a important choice one has to make.

I personally know ten people that took the H1N1 vaccine and three were bed ridden for two weeks and they felt they were hit by a truck in constant pain but compared to getting the H1N1 one usually ends up in emergency ward with a breathing machine hooked on and the ones that don’t get to emergency they just die

My family in this city alone is 12 strong. All of us had the shot. Not one of us got sick. Some were down with some kind of flu before they had the shot but no one was severely ill. We all had both the H1N1 and the seasonal shot at the exact moment. While I don't know if this is true, I have heard that BC was the only province to give both shots at the same moment.

 

[Cliffy]

So you'll take your 'vitamins' and 'herbal remedies' in the form of pills, while you complain about pill poppers. You do realize that the main difference between 'herbal' remedies and pharmaceuticals is that pharmaceuticals are more controlled, and produced under strict rules, whereas herbal rememdies are whatever the hell someone wants to put out and call a remedy.

You don't seem to understand the concept. I don't pop herbal or vitamin pills (I usually use herbs I pick) unless I need them due to illness. I also take pills from the pharmaceutical industry because I have congestive heart failure and have not found suitable herbal substitutes to date. What I'm saying is we need to balance our intake with education. We need to take responsibility for our own health and use systems only when needed. Our medical system is falling apart because people run to their doctor every time they have a cold or hang nail. Gawd! They even have a pill for restless leg syndrome (which I used to suffer from but never took a pill for). There are long waits for some procedures because the system is being abused.

 

[karrie]

There is the balancing side of that too though Cliffy.... with people feeding fear into others so that they avoid the system even when they, or someone they love, needs it.

I personally took the path of 'healthy people don't need vaccines'. It seems pretty straight forward to me when dealing with flus, etc. Healthy people can afford to develop an immunity naturally.

But then my son was born. And with every chest infection, he was in the hospital, fighting for every little bit of oxygen he could get. If I wanted to, I could cave in to the warning about the vaccines, the proclamations that it does not good... that you'll die no matter what... and not get my son a vaccine for a flu that could easily kill him.

Or, instead, I can read an article critically, point out the many ways the logic in it is flawed, and realize that it makes more sense to make these decisions based on individual need, than it does to attempt to boil it all down to some 'guesstimates'.

 

[JLM]

You don't seem to understand the concept. I don't pop herbal or vitamin pills (I usually use herbs I pick) unless I need them due to illness. I also take pills from the pharmaceutical industry because I have congestive heart failure and have not found suitable herbal substitutes to date. What I'm saying is we need to balance our intake with education. We need to take responsibility for our own health and use systems only when needed. Our medical system is falling apart because people run to their doctor every time they have a cold or hang nail. Gawd! They even have a pill for restless leg syndrome (which I used to suffer from but never took a pill for). There are long waits for some procedures because the system is being abused.

Bingo, Cliff- you know it and I know it but there is just no way to explain this concept to someone entrenched in the "Drugstore Mentality".

 

[talloola]

Bingo, Cliff- you know it and I know it but there is just no way to explain this concept to someone entrenched in the "Drugstore Mentality".

I shop the drug store at times, and I shop the naturopathic
pharmacy, at times, and I use herbal remedies at times,
there is some good in all of them, at times.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Doctors have their place in any health regime but they only look at a part of the picture and for the most part treat symptoms.

You need to change doctors, that's not at all how our family physician behaves, and we've never had a family physician who behaves that way. The good ones are every bit as holistic as your favourite naturopath.

...a cure is dependent upon how much you believe in the remedy, the practitioner and in yourself...

No, that's completely wrong. We can prevent many diseases by vaccination--mumps, measles, chicken pox, smallpox, diphtheria, pertussis, viral meningitis, etc.--and it works regardless of what you believe. We know how to cure a lot of things too, and those techniques also work regardless of what you believe. Would you seriously argue that if you're diagnosed with congestive heart failure and get a bypass procedure that what you believe about the efficacy of that treatment and the doctors doing it will affect the outcome significantly?

 

[JLM]

I shop the drug store at times, and I shop the naturopathic
pharmacy, at times, and I use herbal remedies at times,
there is some good in all of them, at times.

And the vegetable garden is good ALL THE TIME...............:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[JLM]

You need to change doctors, that's not at all how our family physician behaves, and we've never had a family physician who behaves that way. The good ones are every bit as holistic as your favourite naturopath.
No, that's completely wrong. We can prevent many diseases by vaccination--mumps, measles, chicken pox, smallpox, diphtheria, pertussis, viral meningitis, etc.--and it works regardless of what you believe. We know how to cure a lot of things too, and those techniques also work regardless of what you believe. Would you seriously argue that if you're diagnosed with congestive heart failure and get a bypass procedure that what you believe about the efficacy of that treatment and the doctors doing it will affect the outcome significantly?

The things we can be vaccinated against aren't generally problems. Congestive heart failure can't be cured with a bypass operation.

 

[Cliffy]

You need to change doctors, that's not at all how our family physician behaves, and we've never had a family physician who behaves that way. The good ones are every bit as holistic as your favourite naturopath.
No, that's completely wrong. We can prevent many diseases by vaccination--mumps, measles, chicken pox, smallpox, diphtheria, pertussis, viral meningitis, etc.--and it works regardless of what you believe. We know how to cure a lot of things too, and those techniques also work regardless of what you believe. Would you seriously argue that if you're diagnosed with congestive heart failure and get a bypass procedure that what you believe about the efficacy of that treatment and the doctors doing it will affect the outcome significantly?

My doctor is a moron. In a town this size, you don't get much choice.
Congestive heart failure looks like a misnomer to me. It is more like congestive kidney failure. Bypass surgery wouldn't do any good unless the kidneys are strengthened. And yes, the mind is a powerful tool. If you don't believe in herbal remedies they will do you no good.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

If you don't believe in herbal remedies they will do you no good.

That means they're not doing anything at all, all you've got is a placebo effect.

 

[karrie]

That means they're not doing anything at all, all you've got is a placebo effect.

which is not true. Many herbal remedies have been shown to have a definite effect, thus their use in developing pharmaceutical equivalents, with standardized doses.

 

[#juan]

The things we can be vaccinated against aren't generally problems. Congestive heart failure can't be cured with a bypass operation.

Everybody dies of something. The average Canadian lives for 80.4 years and average means that some live a bit longer and some don't live quite as long. With congestive heart problems, bypass surgery and diet can add a few years to your life that you wouldn't have had without the surgery and diet. A cure? Not really but you take what you can get..

 

[JLM]

That means they're not doing anything at all, all you've got is a placebo effect.

Lots of times the "placebo effect" is what it is all about, it's known as "mind over matter". While some drugs may do a little enabling as far as a cure is concerned, it's actually the body itself that does most of the curing and attitude is of paramount importance. Quite often you have a situation where a guy is down with malaise and then finds he's won the lottery and then in no time is feeling perfectly Okay.

 

[karrie]

quite often? How often? And where do I meet these guys?

 

[TenPenny]

What I'm saying is we need to balance our intake with education. We need to take responsibility for our own health and use systems only when needed. Our medical system is falling apart because people run to their doctor every time they have a cold or hang nail. Gawd! They even have a pill for restless leg syndrome (which I used to suffer from but never took a pill for). There are long waits for some procedures because the system is being abused.

If that's what you're saying, then you should try to say it.

Now that you've said it, I'll agree that you should only take medicines when you need them, except for certain things. Vaccines are useful to prevent polio, tetanus, mumps/measels, flu, etc.

All doctors are not bad / stupid / stooges of the pharmaceutical industry, and they'd all be happier if people smartened up and looked after their health, instead of wasting everybody's time on self-inflicted or imagined stuff.