The Miracles of Christ

Dexter Sinister

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Oct 1, 2004
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He made a way to pay for the sin, how is that not seeing something that would be an obstacle down the road? I'm quite sure you and every other parent would break a few laws to get a stolen child of yours back. Even if it means willingly paying for those crimes later, after the child is safely back where he belongs.
You really think that answers it? For starters, you're applying human standards to god's behaviour, which you've said elsewhere is not legitimate, he's beyond all that. Second, he made the way to pay for the sin only 2000 years ago, humanity's been around for 100 times that long (not that I expect you to believe that), it's way past too late for most of the people who've ever lived. Third, this is about god's sins, not man's. If even god can sin, he has no business punishing us for doing it, particularly since according to the standard view of his powers and knowledge he set things up from the beginning knowing perfectly well what'd happen. The fault is his.

And what you don't seem to get is that all the illogic and inconsistencies of religious belief, and all the elaborate rationalizations and verbal gymnastics you have to go through to try to make consistent sense of all this stuff, simply disappear if you start from the easily defensible premise that this god is a fiction.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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"And man created god in his own image" - Mark Twain

There may or may not have been a super intelligence that created the Universe. There is no way of knowing and very little evidence to prove it. But the gods of man are of his own personal making, designed with human weaknesses and neuroses. The sooner we learn to live without the concept of our man made gods, the sooner we can take responsibility for the mess we have created of this magnificent planet and fix it. It is time to stop waiting for our fictitious gods to save us from ourselves.
 

El Barto

les fesses a l'aire
Feb 11, 2007
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"And man created god in his own image" - Mark Twain

There may or may not have been a super intelligence that created the Universe. There is no way of knowing and very little evidence to prove it. But the gods of man are of his own personal making, designed with human weaknesses and neuroses. The sooner we learn to live without the concept of our man made gods, the sooner we can take responsibility for the mess we have created of this magnificent planet and fix it. It is time to stop waiting for our fictitious gods to save us from ourselves.
I am maxed out for reps towards you....
Excellant post :thumbleft::thumbleft::thumbleft::thumbleft:
 

El Barto

les fesses a l'aire
Feb 11, 2007
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I can understand that. That is why I've been in BC since 1972.;-)

Actually, I believe in miracles. It was miraculous that I made it out of Montreal alive.:lol:
HAHAH and for me a miricale I can make it through it with all the construction and still have a bit of sanity left.......hmm maybe there is a god ? hahahahahaha NOT!
 

herald

Electoral Member
Jul 16, 2006
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In Psalm 119, the word, "Word," Is used interchangeably with, "law," "commandments," "judgments, "precepts, "statutes," "testimonies."

God's Word is His law.

In the Old Testament, the Lord says, "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep My judgments and do them." Ezek 36:26,27. When His Spirit is within us, we are empowered by His Spirit to obey His Word/His law.

In the New Testament, Jesus said, "Verily, verily I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God...Verily, verily I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God...Marvel not that I said unto thee, YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN." John 3:3-7.

Unless we are born of His Spirit, we will not have eternal life. Ask Him to come into your heart and then you will have eternal life.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Vernon, B.C.
"And man created god in his own image" - Mark Twain

There may or may not have been a super intelligence that created the Universe. There is no way of knowing and very little evidence to prove it. But the gods of man are of his own personal making, designed with human weaknesses and neuroses. The sooner we learn to live without the concept of our man made gods, the sooner we can take responsibility for the mess we have created of this magnificent planet and fix it. It is time to stop waiting for our fictitious gods to save us from ourselves.

Good morning Cliff. One thing that's been baffling me lately. Is man the ultimate entity of intelligence on the planet? I personally think it would be both conceited and stupid of us to think so.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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You really think that answers it? For starters, you're applying human standards to god's behaviour, which you've said elsewhere is not legitimate, he's beyond all that.
You forgot to admit that you would break some of our societies laws if you were trying to retrieve a child of yours that was being stolen. I would about 1/8000 sec after the first move to take one of them.
It isn't the same as far as death is concerned, if we kill somebody we cannot reverse that action. If we send a child to their room for an hour as a punishment we can open the door at the end of the hour. We can open and close a door to a room, God can open the door to the grave. The morality is exactly the same, know the rules, break the rules pay the penality. Human standards are formed in Heaven, way back before Adam drew breath mankind was made to resemble something that already existed. When it was said let 'us' make man in our image and likeness it was stating two separate things. Image is our appearance bodily and likeness is the relationships we establish based on our moralities. Even in Heaven when the word 'us' is used there is relationship established, just like with mankind. God is the higher authority, when He speaks the words that He has thought about (in full) the other part of 'us' goes and makes those words become reality. In Genesis the theme was existence. We have to go from the start of the 7th day of creation until the books are closed at Judgment Day, that journey was determined by the creation of those two trees. Everything that was ever to exist had to be there by the end of the 6th day. Nothing new can ever be created, what has been created can be restored if a living remnant can be found. Adam and Eve, Noah and the other 7, and the 144,000 of Revelation are all examples of population growth from a living remnant. Conversely the giants that were killed by the flood (and after) can never be brought back to life because there is no remnant to start with.
With the need to have both of those trees existing before creation was finished came the possibility that somebody would eat from it at sometime since they were meant to become parents and at that time they access eternal life. If mankind was never meant to eat from the tree of knowledge then there would have been no purpose for the existence of a tree that is opposite in nature. The path not taken would have seen Adam and Eve have children, those children would have children, etc, until we arrive at about the same time that the Bible calls Christ's return. If death means more than 3 days without breath then that many days before the return everybody would eat from the tree of knowledge and fall asleep or Christ would return and everybody would eat from that tree but before they died Christ would have given them access to the tree of life. Either way, the earth getting old and being consumed by fire would still happen, as would the Great White Throne (death and hell would be empty had there been no sin). Satan's meddling changed the path but not the timing or the destination.

Second, he made the way to pay for the sin only 2000 years ago, humanity's been around for 100 times that long (not that I expect you to believe that), it's way past too late for most of the people who've ever lived.
There has been an alter since Noah's time. The sin of Adam and Eve seems to trump any sin we can do while drawing breath. What law existed pre-flood that determined that God could call what men were doing evil and wickedness was the norm? If fallen angels were on earth then the earth would be under the laws that they were for them.
Satan broke two laws back then, he lied and he murdered. Being born into a sinful world pretty much means we will be sinners by the time we die. Death covers the original sin, I'm quite sure death also covers the sins that an individual commits in their lifetime. Grace is for those who are alive at His coming. God arranged Jesus to be priest to everybody including Adam and Eve, that was with salvation in mind not punishment. Mankind is already under punishment from God, we have been since God closed the Garden. He doesn't come around and increase the punishment, when He comes around it means the punishment time is over.

Third, this is about god's sins, not man's. If even god can sin, he has no business punishing us for doing it, particularly since according to the standard view of his powers and knowledge he set things up from the beginning knowing perfectly well what'd happen.
Are you saying that God doesn't have the right to set conditions on how our relationship works? If we listen we could have had eternal life in a Garden, if we don't listen we have eternal life taken away and we live outside of the Garden. Israel was given the same option, obey some rules and God will make sure their Nation is not overthrown, don't obey and protection from invasion is withdrawn. The Church is given the same condition, if you want to get the grace that comes with calling Christ Lord, but are not willing to follow the moral rules then grace is taken away. Just what do you find immoral in the above examples.

The fault is his.
Life and salvation are also His fault, having two paths in place is not a fault when they have the same starting and ending points.

And what you don't seem to get is that all the illogic and inconsistencies of religious belief, and all the elaborate rationalizations and verbal gymnastics you have to go through to try to make consistent sense of all this stuff, simply disappear if you start from the easily defensible premise that this god is a fiction.
True, those things do make it impossible to understand. Just what would be the purpose of taking a dozen verses and doing what you mention and expect anybody to buy it? The 12 verses that start Eze:37 are a case in point. Without trying to figure out who is who and when this takes place by the time you finish reading you have the whole message, resurrection from the grave will follow a certain pattern. That's it, the whole message those 12 verses are meant to convey. Our 'teachers' can and do write a whole set of books on what they can twist those same verses to mean. That doesn't make the Bible in error, it puts the error on our side, over-analyzing is a fault we have in more than one area. God has made the Bible easy to understand if you read it.
When we write we make a rough draft, a rough copy and a good copy. With God the rough draft is the finished copy. Some of it (a lot actually) remains in point form, understand something is easiest when it is in point form. Following His rules all He has to do is say what is going to happen before it happens, that we actually understand it before it happens all is not a requirement, prophecy can be revealed by hindsight also.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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Good morning Cliff. One thing that's been baffling me lately. Is man the ultimate entity of intelligence on the planet? I personally think it would be both conceited and stupid of us to think so.
Cats and Dolphins: Watch a cat as it walks away from you. It knows who the boss is - the top of the evolutionary ladder and food chain. Watch dolphins. They play, eat and have sex all day and have a greater brain capacity. Tell me who is smarter, who is more evolved. The goddess was a cat and god was a dolphin and they created the apex of their creations in their own image.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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You forgot to admit that you would break some of our societies laws if you were trying to retrieve a child of yours...
I don't see how it's relevant, but of course I would, I'd stop at nothing to rescue a child of mine, and anybody else's too. As for the rest of that long post, I don't see how that addresses any of the issues either. Your ideas are quite far outside mainstream Christianity, they appear to be your own unique version of fundamentalist Protestantism. The only thing you can offer in support of your claims is the tired old fallacy of the argument from biblical authority, though with your own somewhat unusual spin on it. You keep talking about pre and post flood times, as if the global flood were an accepted, established fact, when in reality the evidence establishes clearly that it never happened. You talk of Adam and Eve and the garden as if they were real people and a real place; they weren't. You have not a shred of evidence, all you have is this single document, written by many people over thousands of years, none of it more recently than about 1800 years ago, and you accept it as true, inerrant, and consistent, when in fact it is demonstrably none of those things. Until you can get past that, reality will elude you.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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The global flood was 21ft of rain in 40 straight days. Rain didn't have to land on any Ocean or Sea, just on the land. You would agree that the receeding icecaps raised sea level 100's of ft. Why is it so impossible that the water raised due to rain than the oceans creeping up from over the horizon.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Oct 1, 2004
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The global flood was 21ft of rain in 40 straight days.
That's not what the book says. Genesis 6:17 talks about a flood of water on the earth, 7:11 talks about the fountains of the great deep. That's not just rain, it's a tsunami too. Not that it matters, it didn't happen. It's a retelling of an older story from the Epic of Gilgamesh. The geological record does not support claims of a global flood, and the observed distribution of animal and plant life around the globe does not sustain the claim that they all radiated away from a single location in the mountains of Ararat a few thousand years ago. The biblical account is simply wrong, it's fiction.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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That's not what the book says. Genesis 6:17 talks about a flood of water on the earth, 7:11 talks about the fountains of the great deep. That's not just rain, it's a tsunami too. Not that it matters, it didn't happen. It's a retelling of an older story from the Epic of Gilgamesh. The geological record does not support claims of a global flood, and the observed distribution of animal and plant life around the globe does not sustain the claim that they all radiated away from a single location in the mountains of Ararat a few thousand years ago. The biblical account is simply wrong, it's fiction.
You mean that people didn't walk down a creek bed in the footsteps of dinosaurs 6000 years ago!
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Vernon, B.C.
That's not what the book says. Genesis 6:17 talks about a flood of water on the earth, 7:11 talks about the fountains of the great deep. That's not just rain, it's a tsunami too. Not that it matters, it didn't happen. It's a retelling of an older story from the Epic of Gilgamesh. The geological record does not support claims of a global flood, and the observed distribution of animal and plant life around the globe does not sustain the claim that they all radiated away from a single location in the mountains of Ararat a few thousand years ago. The biblical account is simply wrong, it's fiction.

YOu have to be careful what you believe in those flood stories, as the amount of water in the world is always constant it was impossible to have a flood on both sides (the earth was flat at that time) at the same time. I've heard it said that the great flood was caused by Atlantis sinking, there may be a tad of hyperbole there too.
 
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El Barto

les fesses a l'aire
Feb 11, 2007
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you have to be careful what you believe in those flood stories, as the amount of water in the world it was impossible to have a flood on both sides (the earth was flat at that time) at the same time. I've heard it said that the great flood was caused by atlantis sinking, there may be a tad of hyperbole there too.
rotflmao