FARMING & FOOD – Is it all fouled up?

[Tonington]

The biggest complaint the farmer has is the middleman is giving them bottom dollar and the food that consumers buy is at a premium.

It's not a premium. Customers expect cheap prices. The grocery chains lean on their suppliers, and the packers lean on the farmers.

This is why you see growing trends in premium products like anti-biotic free, free-range, organic, ecologically sustainable, local, etc. Some customers are coming around to the fact that cheap food is not all it's cracked up to be. You combine that with the Canadian Government giving industry more control over the policing of food regs, and the problem is a rancid system, that is unsustainable.

Even cereal crops are moving towards sustainable practices to get the premium.

But make no mistake. These premium products are a niche market, still dwarfed by corporate ag practices.

 

[Ron in Regina]

The "middleman" (or shall we say "middleMEN") do have a role to play in getting food from the field to the plate. I think the theory is that each step along the way (such as turning wheat into flour), if performed by a specialist, can be done the better, faster, and cheaper...in theory. And economies of scale enter into it too, whereby it can be more efficient to mill grain all day long, every day, to reduce the cost of doing it. It's a bit like batch work vs. production lines...an example of that would be building one complete car at a time vs. building a great number of them at the same time in separate steps...the production line. Unfortunately, going to an extreme in applying production principles to food results in certain key items getting left behind...like nutrition and overall goodness.

Yeah, there is definitely something wrong with the price of many things in the supermarket. One good example would be paying 5 or 6 bucks for a box of cheap grain and a bunch of additives (breakfast cereal)...But, I will say I think we do eat more cheaply than many other places in the world. Or at least, I think it's possible to do so here. Depends on one's choices.

Your point on the vertical farm is a great one...fingers crossed that some entrepreneurial type will jump on that one to get the ball rolling! I don't know if it would work on wheat farming (due to volume required) but it's worth considering.

How about mandatory & compulsory middlemen....enforced by law,
like the Canadian Wheat Board? Sell your own grain, & go to jail....8O

Source: Canadian Wheat Board - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The fact that the Wheat Board primarily markets crops produced in Western
Canada has become a source of Western alienation and even Alberta separatism for
many Western Canadian farmers. Farmers in Eastern Canada (east of Manitoba)
and most of British Columbia (non-Peace River) are exempt from the monopsony
control of non-feed wheat and barley. Wheat and barley farmers from the East
have their own marketing boards but they are not compulsory. The Wheat Board
has attempted to offer producers more options in recent years - for example,
farmers can now purchase binding futures contracts from the Wheat Board that
attempt to pay them the same price that they would get for their grain in the U.S.
Although the new options created by the CWB allow farmers more ability to play
the market, this does not go far enough in many farmers' eyes when it comes to
the ability to get the best possible price for their commodities.

Many farmers, as well as agribusiness in Western Canada support the government's
plan to dismantle the wheat board monopsony. They believe that farmers should be
allowed to opt out of the board. Others believe that they could get a better price
for their grain than the board itself and would like to market their own grain. Also,
farmers already have the ability to market all the crops save wheat and malt barley
independently, showing that it is possible to succeed marketing grain without board
oversight. For example, the total acres seeded to canola in western provinces has
often exceeded that of wheat. Thus, the wheat board's control of wheat and malt
barley is seen as a redundancy.

Another concern is that many organic farmers are forced to sell and buy back their
grain from the Canadian Wheat Board, which lacks the resources to market organic
wheat and barley. Being forced to sell and buyback wheat and malt barley also
prevents the advantage that Canadian Farmers would have in adding value to those
crops by developing businesses for milling and processing those crops.

A study by authors, Colin A. Carter and R. M. A. Loyns found that measurable costs
of the single-desk to farmers exist, they vary and could be as high as $20 per
tonne in any year for wheat. Taxpayer costs could be another $5 to $6 per tonne.
For barley growers, the hidden costs of the Board are larger than $20 per tonne,
and the taxpayer costs are approximately $9 per tonne.

Some opponents of the board's monopsony have suggested it to be replaced by a
'dual market' system. This is presented as a compromise where board supporters
could continue to sell their wheat and barley through the board and board
opponents could have the option to sell outside the board. From the standpoint of
supporters of the board, however, this is not a real alternative as a dual market
would effectively end the board's monopsony and any benefits that it may give to
farmers.

Opponents argue that because farmers capitalize program benefits into the cost of
land, elimination of the CWB monopsony will result in lower land prices. Lower land
prices would make Canadian farmers more competitive but could also leave many
owing more than the value of their reduced land. Retiring farmers selling their land
could be faced with a much reduced retirement fund but new entrants into
farming would be able to purchase land at lower cost.

Some CWB opponents have argued that much of the lower quality land is in close
proximity to the US border and would be the first to realize the benefits of the US
market.

.....and.....

Although the Board was reformed to meet free market conditions under the North
American Free Trade Agreement and the World Trade Organization Treaty,
American producers continually complain. Despite numerous challenges and much
posturing by the United States, the World Trade Organization ruled in 2003 that
the Wheat Board was a producer marketing body and not a system for government
subsidy although the decision has since been overturned. In fact, Canadian
producers have almost no government subsidy while their American and European
Union counterparts are heavily subsidized. The attacks on the Wheat Board are one
of the major irritants in bilateral relations between Canada and the United States.

Sounds fair, right? Check this out:
13 Western farmers protest tyrannical exploitation of Western-Canadian farmers by the Canadian Wheat Board

 

[Nuggler]

We used to grow our own chickens, when we lived in the country. T'was great!!

We used combination birds, got eggs, and killed in the fall. Had a bit of room for them to go free range, and also fed commercial. Talk about delicious; both eggs and chickens.

We sold a few to friends,(chickens and eggs), and the next year were inundated with requests for birds. We declined. Was fun on a small scale, but any larger it would have become just a job.

We thought about getting into the meat chicken and turkey business, but decided against it...........hoooooooooooonose!!! Coulda been a turkey baron stead of just another turkey.............8O hee hee hee.

Or if we had raised pheasants, could have been a pheasant plucker, stead of a...................:sad3:

 

[Liberalman]

The "middleman" (or shall we say "middleMEN") do have a role to play in getting food from the field to the plate. I think the theory is that each step along the way (such as turning wheat into flour), if performed by a specialist, can be done the better, faster, and cheaper...in theory. And economies of scale enter into it too, whereby it can be more efficient to mill grain all day long, every day, to reduce the cost of doing it. It's a bit like batch work vs. production lines...an example of that would be building one complete car at a time vs. building a great number of them at the same time in separate steps...the production line. Unfortunately, going to an extreme in applying production principles to food results in certain key items getting left behind...like nutrition and overall goodness.

Yeah, there is definitely something wrong with the price of many things in the supermarket. One good example would be paying 5 or 6 bucks for a box of cheap grain and a bunch of additives (breakfast cereal)...But, I will say I think we do eat more cheaply than many other places in the world. Or at least, I think it's possible to do so here. Depends on one's choices.

Your point on the vertical farm is a great one...fingers crossed that some entrepreneurial type will jump on that one to get the ball rolling! I don't know if it would work on wheat farming (due to volume required) but it's worth considering.

The big question here is the reason the family farm is disappearing is that the factory farms are springing up because they can grow it more efficiently which makes it less nutritious.

As for the quality of food some people don’t care and some do research and some are proactive.

Now you can try pressuring the government for more regulations but that increases the price of the food.

The family farms must come together and create a new agency that can market their products and as for advertising agencies there are thousands of them looking for new business that are cheaper than known ones.

The other opportunity is starting up regional grocery stores and since the farmers own it they can get more for their products that they grow or raise.

Farming is a business it’s about products, advertising and processing.

The farmers loss on what the middlemen are paying them go to the shareholders and if the farmers want more then everybody blames the farmer for the dramatic rise in food prices this is why farmers have to take control and take a finished product to the market place.

A good example of this was the ethanol plants the farmers set up to make an alternative to fuel where farmers could get a decent price for their corn all of a sudden it was a big deal and people were demonstrating of the high cost of food the ethanol was causing.

Now another idea sell the products by weekly auctions to consumers online and they pick up their food at a warehouse it’s an idea that can save the consumer a lot of money because it is coming from the farm gate and I am sure this will be a reality down the road.

There are choices the farmers can make according to Agvision and Farms.com http://www.farms.com it’s all about value chains.

The problem is that the average family farm is not willing to go the extra mile or in this country’s case kilometre.

 

[AnnaG]

How about mandatory & compulsory middlemen....enforced by law,
like the Canadian Wheat Board? Sell your own grain, & go to jail....8O

Source: Canadian Wheat Board - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The fact that the Wheat Board primarily markets crops produced in Western
Canada has become a source of Western alienation and even Alberta separatism for
many Western Canadian farmers. Farmers in Eastern Canada (east of Manitoba)
and most of British Columbia (non-Peace River) are exempt from the monopsony

Sounds fair, right? Check this out:
13 Western farmers protest tyrannical exploitation of Western-Canadian farmers by the Canadian Wheat Board

Yeah, there's been a shyte storm over the CWB ever since I can remember. I'm kind of glad we only grow fruit and eggs.

 

[countryboy]

There's that, too, yes.

I don't think food is the big issue, though. I think the biggest issue we have is fresh palatable water.
Earth's surface is 71% water. About 97% of it is seawater. The other 3% is referred to as fresh water. Of that fresh water, about 0.9% is accessible. So basically the 6.5 billion people on this planet can only use about 1% of the water on Earth. That 1% is not all used for drinking. It is used for commercial purposes, industrial purposes, washing, etc. A lot of it is used for dumping crap into: the major rivers in India, a half dozen of China's biggest rivers, etc. By the time the Mississippi river flows into the Gulf of Mexico, it's one of the most polluted rivers in the world.
But, don't panic, we have the ability to clean water, too. We don't have to just rely on Earth to do that. But this cleaning costs an awful lot of money. Wouldn't it be better just to not dirty the water to begin with?

Oh yeah, I almost forgot: we have 6.5 billion people using less than 1% of the fresh water on the planet for drinking. That 1 % turns out to be about 501,538,500 US gallons per person. The average US citizen uses about 35,000 gallons per year and same for Canadians. Europeans use about half that. Earth is having to filter out more and more crap as the population grows and people keep fouling up the water. And what's more people keep throwing crap into the air and into the ground, so that eventually end up being waterborn, too.

Sorry about the detraction from food, but we also ingest water.

Hey Anna, no detraction at all. The two are diectly related. The amount of water used to extract the 100 or so "things" - food additives such as fructose, xantham gun, to name a couple of items found on "food" labels these days - out of corn alone is huge. And at the end of it all, it is waste water.

The amount of animal waste flowing out of the feedlots, pig factories, and chicken factories finds its way either into our ground or surface water. In nasty concentrations. Not only that, it's not natural waste...it contains lots of antibiotics and hormones.

 

[Liberalman]

How about mandatory & compulsory middlemen....enforced by law,
like the Canadian Wheat Board? Sell your own grain, & go to jail....8O

Source: Canadian Wheat Board - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The fact that the Wheat Board primarily markets crops produced in Western
Canada has become a source of Western alienation and even Alberta separatism for
many Western Canadian farmers. Farmers in Eastern Canada (east of Manitoba)
and most of British Columbia (non-Peace River) are exempt from the monopsony
control of non-feed wheat and barley. Wheat and barley farmers from the East
have their own marketing boards but they are not compulsory. The Wheat Board
has attempted to offer producers more options in recent years - for example,
farmers can now purchase binding futures contracts from the Wheat Board that
attempt to pay them the same price that they would get for their grain in the U.S.
Although the new options created by the CWB allow farmers more ability to play
the market, this does not go far enough in many farmers' eyes when it comes to
the ability to get the best possible price for their commodities.

Many farmers, as well as agribusiness in Western Canada support the government's
plan to dismantle the wheat board monopsony. They believe that farmers should be
allowed to opt out of the board. Others believe that they could get a better price
for their grain than the board itself and would like to market their own grain. Also,
farmers already have the ability to market all the crops save wheat and malt barley
independently, showing that it is possible to succeed marketing grain without board
oversight. For example, the total acres seeded to canola in western provinces has
often exceeded that of wheat. Thus, the wheat board's control of wheat and malt
barley is seen as a redundancy.

Another concern is that many organic farmers are forced to sell and buy back their
grain from the Canadian Wheat Board, which lacks the resources to market organic
wheat and barley. Being forced to sell and buyback wheat and malt barley also
prevents the advantage that Canadian Farmers would have in adding value to those
crops by developing businesses for milling and processing those crops.

A study by authors, Colin A. Carter and R. M. A. Loyns found that measurable costs
of the single-desk to farmers exist, they vary and could be as high as $20 per
tonne in any year for wheat. Taxpayer costs could be another $5 to $6 per tonne.
For barley growers, the hidden costs of the Board are larger than $20 per tonne,
and the taxpayer costs are approximately $9 per tonne.

Some opponents of the board's monopsony have suggested it to be replaced by a
'dual market' system. This is presented as a compromise where board supporters
could continue to sell their wheat and barley through the board and board
opponents could have the option to sell outside the board. From the standpoint of
supporters of the board, however, this is not a real alternative as a dual market
would effectively end the board's monopsony and any benefits that it may give to
farmers.

Opponents argue that because farmers capitalize program benefits into the cost of
land, elimination of the CWB monopsony will result in lower land prices. Lower land
prices would make Canadian farmers more competitive but could also leave many
owing more than the value of their reduced land. Retiring farmers selling their land
could be faced with a much reduced retirement fund but new entrants into
farming would be able to purchase land at lower cost.

Some CWB opponents have argued that much of the lower quality land is in close
proximity to the US border and would be the first to realize the benefits of the US
market.

.....and.....

Although the Board was reformed to meet free market conditions under the North
American Free Trade Agreement and the World Trade Organization Treaty,
American producers continually complain. Despite numerous challenges and much
posturing by the United States, the World Trade Organization ruled in 2003 that
the Wheat Board was a producer marketing body and not a system for government
subsidy although the decision has since been overturned. In fact, Canadian
producers have almost no government subsidy while their American and European
Union counterparts are heavily subsidized. The attacks on the Wheat Board are one
of the major irritants in bilateral relations between Canada and the United States.

Sounds fair, right? Check this out:
13 Western farmers protest tyrannical exploitation of Western-Canadian farmers by the Canadian Wheat Board

Would selling a finnished product would take it away from the CWB?

 

[Nuggler]

Yeah, there's been a shyte storm over the CWB ever since I can remember. I'm kind of glad we only grow fruit and eggs.

Whut kinda soil preparation do ya do at egg plantin time, Anna?:joker:

 

[countryboy]

The big question here is the reason the family farm is disappearing is that the factory farms are springing up because they can grow it more efficiently which makes it less nutritious.

As for the quality of food some people don’t care and some do research and some are proactive.

Now you can try pressuring the government for more regulations but that increases the price of the food.

The family farms must come together and create a new agency that can market their products and as for advertising agencies there are thousands of them looking for new business that are cheaper than known ones.

The other opportunity is starting up regional grocery stores and since the farmers own it they can get more for their products that they grow or raise.

Farming is a business it’s about products, advertising and processing.

The farmers loss on what the middlemen are paying them go to the shareholders and if the farmers want more then everybody blames the farmer for the dramatic rise in food prices this is why farmers have to take control and take a finished product to the market place.

A good example of this was the ethanol plants the farmers set up to make an alternative to fuel where farmers could get a decent price for their corn all of a sudden it was a big deal and people were demonstrating of the high cost of food the ethanol was causing.

Now another idea sell the products by weekly auctions to consumers online and they pick up their food at a warehouse it’s an idea that can save the consumer a lot of money because it is coming from the farm gate and I am sure this will be a reality down the road.

There are choices the farmers can make according to Agvision and Farms.com http://www.farms.com it’s all about value chains.

The problem is that the average family farm is not willing to go the extra mile or in this country’s case kilometre.

Liberalman, you are raising some good points here. I'm pressed for time right now, but you keep coming back to farmers making and selling finished products. I like that one, and it could just be one way around the CWB's stranglehold on some of the farmers. However, the amount of capital required to set up such operations would be prohibitive for most farmers though...mind you, there might be some ways around that too. More thinkin' required, for sure.

Let me "digest" for a bit - I'm sure there will be to follow. And thanks for participating...it's turning into a pretty good discussion!

 

[Ron in Regina]

Would selling a finnished product would take it away from the CWB?

Would the CWB allow that for Western Farmers...or just those east of Manitoba? :-?

"Another concern is that many organic farmers are forced to sell and buy back their
grain from the Canadian Wheat Board, which lacks the resources to market organic
wheat and barley. Being forced to sell and buyback wheat and malt barley also
prevents the advantage that Canadian Farmers would have in adding value to those
crops by developing businesses for milling and processing those crops."

"The fact that the Wheat Board primarily markets crops produced in Western
Canada has become a source of Western alienation and even Alberta separatism for
many Western Canadian farmers. Farmers in Eastern Canada (east of Manitoba)
and most of British Columbia (non-Peace River) are exempt from the monopsony
control of non-feed wheat and barley. Wheat and barley farmers from the East
have their own marketing boards but they are not compulsory."

 

[countryboy]

We used to grow our own chickens, when we lived in the country. T'was great!!

We used combination birds, got eggs, and killed in the fall. Had a bit of room for them to go free range, and also fed commercial. Talk about delicious; both eggs and chickens.

We sold a few to friends,(chickens and eggs), and the next year were inundated with requests for birds. We declined. Was fun on a small scale, but any larger it would have become just a job.

We thought about getting into the meat chicken and turkey business, but decided against it...........hoooooooooooonose!!! Coulda been a turkey baron stead of just another turkey.............8O hee hee hee.

Or if we had raised pheasants, could have been a pheasant plucker, stead of a...................:sad3:

You're making me hungry. I have sympathy for those who have never had the pleasure of eating a properly raised chicken (with yellow fat, not deathly white)...reminds of my good old days in Manitoba.

We didn't have pheasants either...so I must have ended up like you!

 

[countryboy]

Would the CWB allow that for Western Farmers...or just those east of Manitoba? :-?

"Another concern is that many organic farmers are forced to sell and buy back their
grain from the Canadian Wheat Board, which lacks the resources to market organic
wheat and barley. Being forced to sell and buyback wheat and malt barley also
prevents the advantage that Canadian Farmers would have in adding value to those
crops by developing businesses for milling and processing those crops."

"The fact that the Wheat Board primarily markets crops produced in Western
Canada has become a source of Western alienation and even Alberta separatism for
many Western Canadian farmers. Farmers in Eastern Canada (east of Manitoba)
and most of British Columbia (non-Peace River) are exempt from the monopsony
control of non-feed wheat and barley. Wheat and barley farmers from the East
have their own marketing boards but they are not compulsory."

"Another concern is that many organic farmers are forced to sell and buy back their grain from the Canadian Wheat Board..."

Oh-oh...I was afraid of that.

 

[countryboy]

"Another concern is that many organic farmers are forced to sell and buy back their grain from the Canadian Wheat Board..."

Oh-oh...I was afraid of that.

Does anyone know if there is a conflict here (CWB vs. western farmers) with the Charter? I'm no expert...just askin'.

 

[AnnaG]

Whut kinda soil preparation do ya do at egg plantin time, Anna?:joker:

Not much actually. We just toss them around kind of like compost after we take the innards out.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Check out this Manitoba Farmer (& MP):

YouTube - A farmers message for MP's

 

[countryboy]

In order to make sense of the entire food/farming issue, it seems to me that one would have to break it down into a few separate components, as they are quite different in the issues they face...how about:

Grains & oilseeds
Meats and poultry
Dairy
Fruits and vegetables

Would those categories make sense as a base for more discussion on the subject? Just looking for advice here...

"If you're going to eat an elephant, it's best to do it one bite at a time"

 

[AnnaG]

In order to make sense of the entire food/farming issue, it seems to me that one would have to break it down into a few separate components, as they are quite different in the issues they face...how about:

Grains & oilseeds
Meats and poultry
Dairy
Fruits and vegetables

Would those categories make sense as a base for more discussion on the subject? Just looking for advice here...

"If you're going to eat an elephant, it's best to do it one bite at a time"

It makes sense, CB. After all we are supposed to eat some of each food group, why not chat according to those food groups?

 

[countryboy]

It makes sense, CB. After all we are supposed to eat some of each food group, why not chat according to those food groups?

It occurred to me after Ron posted the info. on the Wheat Board...having been off the farm for a few (?) years, I had overlooked that issue, and it's huge but of course, only relates to grain. However, I think there might be a few other marketing boards out there with some heavy-duty influence on what farmers can and can't do...

Not to mention the myriad of regulations on raising, butchering, and selling beef. I have to beg a local farmer for my annual allotment of grass-fed beef because he's facing so many rules and regs. on that one. Ditto for trying to get some raw (real) milk, etc., etc., etc.

Gosh, it's nice to be enjoying all this "freedom", isn't it?

 

[countryboy]

It makes sense, CB. After all we are supposed to eat some of each food group, why not chat according to those food groups?

AnnaG, under which should the eggs go? I've seen them lumped in with dairy before, but to me, eggs are (very) young chickens. What do you think?

(While we're on the subject of chickens and eggs, do you have an opinion on which came first?) :lol:

 

[AnnaG]

AnnaG, under which should the eggs go? I've seen them lumped in with dairy before, but to me, eggs are (very) young chickens. What do you think?

Eggs are dairy products. Chickens are meat products. I have no idea why someone started categorizing them that way, though.

(While we're on the subject of chickens and eggs, do you have an opinion on which came first?) :lol:

Eggs = single cell objects that have been around since before dinosaurs. Chickens = evolved objects. Eventually chickens evolved and they laid their own eggs.