Yeah, right. I just choose not to bother with this very far. It has nothing to do with ability. But, I can't out-troll you, you win.
Sikhs Allowed To Carry Kirpan (knives) To Olympic Events
- Thread starter dumpthemonarchy
- Start date
Can't you all just play nice? Don't make me take off my belt....or
.....uhm....dig out my Kirpan. Let's take this back on Topic and
stop stick'n your thumbs in each others ribs.
or
.....uhm....dig out my Kirpan. Let's take this back on Topic and
stop stick'n your thumbs in each others ribs.
or
Maybe its time we took a different approach, in order to accommodate all the religious icons, we should have a commission that would go through the religious
attire of each faith and separate the religious symbols from the traditional dress
codes. For example the prayer beads of the Christians and the Muslims would be in. Wearing of the head gear for women in the Muslim faith would be out, as it is
traditional and not part of the Koran in the literal sense of the word and so on.
My complaint is not really with the kirpan in and of itself. The kirpan is a weapon,
and all weapons should not be allowed in the Olympic venues. Or every religions
weapons should be allowed and that would be equally ridiculous.
Checking with the religious or holy books, it should be determined whether or not
the kirpan is tradition or religious. I have no objection to various cultures be part
of the games in traditional dress, in fact I think its part of the Canadian way,
what I do object to is one or perhaps more groups being in anyway armed, and
by that I mean being allowed in with anything that could be considered a weapon,
as it opens the door for possible abuse.
attire of each faith and separate the religious symbols from the traditional dress
codes. For example the prayer beads of the Christians and the Muslims would be in. Wearing of the head gear for women in the Muslim faith would be out, as it is
traditional and not part of the Koran in the literal sense of the word and so on.
My complaint is not really with the kirpan in and of itself. The kirpan is a weapon,
and all weapons should not be allowed in the Olympic venues. Or every religions
weapons should be allowed and that would be equally ridiculous.
Checking with the religious or holy books, it should be determined whether or not
the kirpan is tradition or religious. I have no objection to various cultures be part
of the games in traditional dress, in fact I think its part of the Canadian way,
what I do object to is one or perhaps more groups being in anyway armed, and
by that I mean being allowed in with anything that could be considered a weapon,
as it opens the door for possible abuse.
Religion has nothing to do with it. People are getting sidetracked.
A gun is deemed a dangerous weapon so the average citizen can't carry one around in his coat pocket. The kirpan was deemed a dangerous weapon so the average citizen couldn't carry it around. If, as the vocal Sikh community (along with their supporters) claim, the kirpan is not dangerous then every Canadian should be allowed to carry one or a reasonable facsimile. Currently, according to Canadian law, the kirpan is not dangerous weapon in the hands of a Sikh but it is in my hands and that is discriminatory any which way you cut it. If we used that same logic eleswhere it wouldn't fly. What if we said that Aboriginals couldn't buy gasoline because they might sniff it? I can hear the howls already.
As I said before, those that support discrimination based on religion should be able to point out where it's been successful before.
But why is another layer of burocracy necessary? Isn’t it better to work these things out at the local level, rather than have one size fits all solution? Kirpan maybe permitted in some instances (Olympics) but not in others (airplanes).
Provided both sides are reasonable, they can come to an amicable arrangement, an amicable understanding and there is no need to involve the courts. As happened in this case, the two sides came to a reasonable arrangement. In the rare instance where two sides cannot agree, there are the courts.
I don’t see any need for another commission, another layer of burocracy.
I don't usually point out spelling mistakes however, in this instance, it isn't really an error. Since you did it twice, it is quite clear you don't know how to spell the word.
I wouldn't dream of making fun of you as it's probably the fault of your spell check. I will help you though by pointing you in the right direction.
Bureaucracy Definition | Definition of Bureaucracy at Dictionary.com
sjp - I'm probably going to regret engaging you directly, but please... one more time... why do you believe that it's somehow safer to have a knife in a jam packed stadium, but not an airplane? How is someone's ability to reach out and harm the person beside, in front or behind them in any way enhanced if sitting in an airplane seat as compared to a stadium seat? I'm truly baffled by this reasoning.
On second thought, let's make that a rhetorical question - there's no answer you could give me that wouldn't strike me as ridiculous.
however, maybe you could trouble yourself to make a credible attempt to convince me that this is not also an issue of reverse discrimination. If anyone who's advocating in favour of this has addressed that hugely relevant aspect of the debate in this thread, I've missed it.
On second thought, let's make that a rhetorical question - there's no answer you could give me that wouldn't strike me as ridiculous.
however, maybe you could trouble yourself to make a credible attempt to convince me that this is not also an issue of reverse discrimination. If anyone who's advocating in favour of this has addressed that hugely relevant aspect of the debate in this thread, I've missed it.
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On behalf of the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority (CATSA), we thank you for your e-mail of October 22, 2009, in which you enquired if a passenger wearing a Kirpan is allowed past security.
CATSA plays an integral role in the Government of Canada’s air security initiative. Our mission is to protect the public by securing critical elements of the air transportation system, including the screening of passengers and their belongings. Our mandate is to deliver a consistent, effective and highly professional service that is set at or above the standards established by federal regulations.
A Kirpan is an item that is on our non-permitted list of itemsto bring on the plane.
Sincerely,
Client Satisfaction / Satisfaction des clients
Canadian Air Transport Security Authority (CATSA) /
Administration canadienne de la sûreté du transport aérien (ACSTA)
Toll free 1-888-294-2202 (8:30-17:00 ET)
Facsimile / télécopieur: 613-991-4163
www.catsa-acsta.gc.ca
CATSA plays an integral role in the Government of Canada’s air security initiative. Our mission is to protect the public by securing critical elements of the air transportation system, including the screening of passengers and their belongings. Our mandate is to deliver a consistent, effective and highly professional service that is set at or above the standards established by federal regulations.
A Kirpan is an item that is on our non-permitted list of itemsto bring on the plane.
Sincerely,
Client Satisfaction / Satisfaction des clients
Canadian Air Transport Security Authority (CATSA) /
Administration canadienne de la sûreté du transport aérien (ACSTA)
Toll free 1-888-294-2202 (8:30-17:00 ET)
Facsimile / télécopieur: 613-991-4163
www.catsa-acsta.gc.ca
On second thought, let's make that a rhetorical question - there's no answer you could give me that wouldn't strike me as ridiculous.
Maybe so, Zan, but there is a very good reason why kirpan is not permitted on airplanes. The reason is 9/11. A few terrorists dressed as Sikhs could hijack the airplane using kirpans, and fly it into Sears Tower or Empire state Building, thereby causing untold amount of fatalities and property damage.
In a crowded stadium, even if a terrorist comes in dressed as a Sikh carrying a kirpan his ability to inflict damage is limited. Even in the worst case scenario, he cannot stab more than one or two persons before he is overpowered. Considering the size of the kirpan, the wounds won’t be fatal anyway. It is really not worthwhile for a terrorist to risk life imprisonment for one or two possible casualties.
Far better to go to a crowded train station, crowded DMV office, a crowded shopping mall or any of the crowded places where there is no check up and where they may carry a big knife, let alone kirpan. He can inflict much more damage there with a big knife in a crowded place, rather than try to inflict damage in a crowded stadium with a tiny kirpan. For a terrorist, it doesn’t make sense to come to Olympic event dressed as a Sikh.
A terrorist would not want to sell his life so cheaply. A terrorist will be much more interested in trying to detonate a bomb, rather than try to inflict damage with a kirpan.
So in the worst case scenario, we may be looking at one or two casualties, compared to several thousand in the worst case scenario in an airplane. I don’t think freedom of religion can be curtailed for such a minimal hypothetical risk.
Maybe so, Zan, but there is a very good reason why kirpan is not permitted on airplanes. The reason is 9/11. A few terrorists dressed as Sikhs could hijack the airplane using kirpans, and fly it into Sears Tower or Empire state Building, thereby causing untold amount of fatalities and property damage.
In a crowded stadium, even if a terrorist comes in dressed as a Sikh carrying a kirpan his ability to inflict damage is limited. Even in the worst case scenario, he cannot stab more than one or two persons before he is overpowered. Considering the size of the kirpan, the wounds won’t be fatal anyway. It is really not worthwhile for a terrorist to risk life imprisonment for one or two possible casualties.
Far better to go to a crowded train station, crowded DMV office, a crowded shopping mall or any of the crowded places where there is no check up and where they may carry a big knife, let alone kirpan. He can inflict much more damage there with a big knife in a crowded place, rather than try to inflict damage in a crowded stadium with a tiny kirpan. For a terrorist, it doesn’t make sense to come to Olympic event dressed as a Sikh.
A terrorist would not want to sell his life so cheaply. A terrorist will be much more interested in trying to detonate a bomb, rather than try to inflict damage with a kirpan.
So in the worst case scenario, we may be looking at one or two casualties, compared to several thousand in the worst case scenario in an airplane. I don’t think freedom of religion can be curtailed for such a minimal hypothetical risk.
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I'm sure 99.99% of the members of the Sikh community are good people. But it only took a small fraction to blow up an Air India passenger jet. I don't understand why any member of the public would be allowed to carry a weapon for any purpose at the Olympics. They aren't going there to have a religious ceremony. If they find that offensive then maybe they should be attending a temple, and not the Olympics. If they still can't accept it then they should also be fighting for Colpy's right to carry a handgun. I'm offended that they find their need for weapons possession more important than his.
I don’t see where reverse (or any kind of) discrimination comes in, Zan. Kirpan is a religious icon for Sikhs, Olympic Committee has worked out a mutually acceptable arrangement so that Sikhs may carry the kirpan subject to the safely regulation. Who is discriminated against here, whose rights are curtailed?
Christians are allowed to wear a cross if they want, nobody is stopping them. Same with Muslims, Hindus etc, if they want to wear a religious emblem on a necklace or something, nobody is stopping them. Whose rights are curtailed here?
Thanks for the information, goober, but was there ever any doubt that kirpan is not permitted on airplanes? I don’t recall anybody saying here otherwise. And it is the right decision too, in my opinion.
So Canada's ATS doesn't like the items on planes in Canada. India allows them.
Ban one religious item and you might as well ban them all. No Bibles, crosses, Yarmulkas, ba-di, Japa Mala, etc. either. I'm fine with that.
A cross isn't a weapon. If you want it to be we can sharpen a few 8 inchers and wear them to the Olympics.
A kirpan is a weapon. It is one and it represents one. Big difference.
AnnaG
Typical overreaction - Yet to see a plane or planes taken over by a bunch of Christians threatening passengers with a Bible, Crosses, Yarmulke - Have you?
People were unsure as to whether it was or was not - read back on older posts - So I decided to go to the Horses Ass.
So in the worst case scenario, we may be looking at one or two casualties, compared to several thousand in the worst case scenario in an airplane. I don’t think freedom of religion can be curtailed for such a minimal hypothetical risk.[/quote]
SJP
Typically made from iron, kirpans range in blade size from 3 inches (7.6 cm) to over 3 feet (90 cm), though Sikhs in the West wear kirpans with a blade of about 3.5 inches (9 cm). Most Sikhs wear the kirpan under their clothes and most people observing a random Sikh would not be aware that he was carrying a kirpan. To the Sikhs, it is a highly important religious symbol; it is rarely used as a weapon.
Ask your wife the doctor how much damage a blade of 3 inches can cause - Sliced throat, leg arteiries, heart average person and weight - eyes - and brain located behind eyes -
As to the ones that would take this person out - when groups are attacked the survival instinct kick in along with panic
SJP
Typically made from iron, kirpans range in blade size from 3 inches (7.6 cm) to over 3 feet (90 cm), though Sikhs in the West wear kirpans with a blade of about 3.5 inches (9 cm). Most Sikhs wear the kirpan under their clothes and most people observing a random Sikh would not be aware that he was carrying a kirpan. To the Sikhs, it is a highly important religious symbol; it is rarely used as a weapon.
Ask your wife the doctor how much damage a blade of 3 inches can cause - Sliced throat, leg arteiries, heart average person and weight - eyes - and brain located behind eyes -
As to the ones that would take this person out - when groups are attacked the survival instinct kick in along with panic
Most Christians aren't terrorists. So? A cross could be a weapon, same with the item that suspends it around the neck. A pencil is a lethal weapon. Try sticking about 3 or 4 inches of one into your ear. Do you know what a javelin is? Those are extremely deadly and yet they are a part of the games (in summer). There are substances that are stable when alone but if you mix two of them you can make a very large hole in the ground. And people are fussing about 4" kirpans that would take a long time to dig out of clothes? North America is paranoid and over-reactive.
But, whatever, the authorities have spoken, the rules are laid out. It seems the kirpans will be allowed to be worn. I guess that means Christian garottes and whatnot are also allowed.
SJP
Typically made from iron, kirpans range in blade size from 3 inches (7.6 cm) to over 3 feet (90 cm), though Sikhs in the West wear kirpans with a blade of about 3.5 inches (9 cm). Most Sikhs wear the kirpan under their clothes and most people observing a random Sikh would not be aware that he was carrying a kirpan. To the Sikhs, it is a highly important religious symbol; it is rarely used as a weapon.
Ask your wife the doctor how much damage a blade of 3 inches can cause - Sliced throat, leg arteiries, heart average person and weight - eyes - and brain located behind eyes -
As to the ones that would take this person out - when groups are attacked the survival instinct kick in along with panic[/quote]In case you've forgotten, the rules are
As I said, there are a multiple of items that will be allowed that are far more dangerous as weapons. Ski poles, bi-reactive agents, garottes, etc.