What's right about our health-care system

[AnnaG]

"When my daughter graduated with her Bach. in Health Science and became a peds ER nurse, she thought of moving south. I think she still is thinking of it."-

You want to look at that prospect from ALL angles- fairly recently I heard that a lot of professionals that shipped out several years ago are now starting to come back.

Cool, got a link I can send her?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Life expectancy and bureaucratic health care do not necessarily go hand in hand. It's not the lack of care at the clinic, it's the lack of care, when lying on the couch, guzzling beer, smoking cigarettes, eating hot dogs, not to mention the fact that Americans venture out onto the highway a lot, a hell of a lot more than the Swedes, the Swiss, etc. In summary it's the health care you get between trips to the clinic and hospital that is more important.

I disagree. No doubt the factors you mention do play a part. However, availability of prompt health care is also important, also plays a part.

Another important factor is preventive care. Pre and post natal care, regular check ups, testing for prostate, colon cancer etc. These factors also influence life expectancy and infant mortality.

To me, lower life expectancy and higher infant mortality indicates serious gaps in a nation’s health care system.

 

[AnnaG]

Grass is always greener on the other side, JLM.

As I found out, $15000 and 3 or 4 months of pain vs. an immediate fix and a holiday for $11,400. You can stay and suffer, a lot of others won't. Oh, that's right, your wife is a drug dispenser (MD), you can get high to forget your pain for the 3 months.

 

[JLM]

"I disagree. No doubt the factors you mention do play a part. However, availability of prompt health care is also important, also plays a part."-

I agree as far as the individual is concerned like detecting stomach cancer early may add 20 years to his life, but these diagnoses do very little to increase the average life expectancy across the population. Brisk walking for an hour every day for every able bodied person will do more to increase the longevity of the population. When you are already in poor health due to eating the wrong foods, drinking too much booze and not getting exercise, it's hard to detect declines in health because you are always feeling lousy any way, but when you are in peak condition, the biggest killers like heart and lungs are in good shape and you'd be quick to notice an even 5% decline in performance. It's just like with your car, regular maintenance, prevents the big engine and transmission jobs.

 

[ironsides]

That may be JLM, but the results don’t bear that out. USA has just about the lowest life expectancy and highest infant mortality among developed countries. I even remember reading about another measure, life expectancy without a serious disease, and USA lagged behind in that as well.

And a lot of patients from Canada? I seriously doubt that. Only those who have the money to pay for the expensive health care in USA go there. People from developed countries usually to go third world countries (such as India) for medical treatment.

Lets stop worrying about the U.S. for a min. and ask why Canada is so low in the rankings? Canada is ranked #30, finishing 30th in a race is not good last I time checked. Your not winning. Now back to the U.S. rated #37 by the way, seems that both political parties Democrats and Republicans would like some sort of new health system either of which should be some sort of improvement. We both are losers in this so called competition nothing to be proud of. I will say this though that it probably is the high cost of our health care that keeps some of the best doctors in the world practicing in the U.S. and not somewhere else. Again I will mention finishing 30th or 37th out of 190 is nothing to be proud of, no pats on the back for mediocrity.

 

[JLM]

Lets stop worrying about the U.S. for a min. and ask why Canada is so low in the rankings? Canada is ranked #30, finishing 30th in a race is not good last I time checked. Your not winning. Now back to the U.S. rated #37 by the way, seems that both political parties Democrats and Republicans would like some sort of new health system either of which should be some sort of improvement. We both are losers in this so called competition nothing to be proud of. I will say this though that it probably is the high cost of our health care that keeps some of the best doctors in the world practicing in the U.S. and not somewhere else. Again I will mention finishing 30th or 37th out of 190 is nothing to be proud of, no pats on the back for mediocrity.

The point I've been trying to make to S.J. is "healthcare" as he sees it has very, very little to do with longevity and longevity is not a valid indicator of the quality of HEALTHCARE. Doctors, Hospitals, drugstores are very good at patching up sick people. Years ago there was a saying that the average 60 year old Swede was in better physical condition than the average 30 year old American. The Swedes excellent physical condition wasn't due to doctors and hospitals, it was in fact mainly due to their life style. Back to longevity, length isn't as important a criterion as quality of health during the longevity. Canada and the U.S. are countries full of chronic pill takers, that can do wonders but should only be used as a last resort as a lot of what pills do can be done by other means. Exercise and proper diet can do a lot for dealing with high blood pressure and people should lower it by those means, they will generally find they only need light medication or no medication at all.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

The point I've been trying to make to S.J. is "healthcare" as he sees it has very, very little to do with longevity and longevity is not a valid indicator of the quality of HEALTHCARE. Doctors, Hospitals, drugstores are very good at patching up sick people.

Sorry JLM, but you will never convince me that longevity has nothing to do with health care. Canada ranks no. 8 in the world in terms of life expectancy (81 years), Zambia ranks 194 (42 years). Are you saying that the difference in health care system has nothing to do with it?

Availability of adequate health care is definitely part of the picture. If health care is not available, life expectancy is going to be lower.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Lets stop worrying about the U.S. for a min. and ask why Canada is so low in the rankings? Canada is ranked #30, finishing 30th in a race is not good last I time checked. Your not winning. Now back to the U.S. rated #37 by the way, seems that both political parties Democrats and Republicans would like some sort of new health system either of which should be some sort of improvement. We both are losers in this so called competition nothing to be proud of. I will say this though that it probably is the high cost of our health care that keeps some of the best doctors in the world practicing in the U.S. and not somewhere else. Again I will mention finishing 30th or 37th out of 190 is nothing to be proud of, no pats on the back for mediocrity.

Ranking of health care system is only one indicator, ironsides. Canada does well in many indicators, in life expectancy it ranks no. 6 in the world (81 years), USA ranks no.35 (78 years).

In terms of number of years without a serious disease, Canada ranks no. 12 (72 years), USA ranks no. 24 (70 years). In terms of infant mortality, Canada ranks 23 (4.8), USA ranks 33 (6.3).

World Health Organization Disability Adjusted Healthy Life Expectancy Table (HALE)

As to health care system, there are several measures of it, you have simply picked the one that shows USA and Canada closest. Another measure by WHO ranks Canada as no. 35, USA as no. 72.

Health system attainment and performance in all Member States

As to that no. 30 for Canada and 37 for USA that you mention, that was produced by WHO in 2000, and they stopped using that measure. By their own admission, the task is very complicated and therefore, the measure may be unreliable.

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems

 

[AnnaG]

The point I've been trying to make to S.J. is "healthcare" as he sees it has very, very little to do with longevity and longevity is not a valid indicator of the quality of HEALTHCARE. Doctors, Hospitals, drugstores are very good at patching up sick people. Years ago there was a saying that the average 60 year old Swede was in better physical condition than the average 30 year old American. The Swedes excellent physical condition wasn't due to doctors and hospitals, it was in fact mainly due to their life style. Back to longevity, length isn't as important a criterion as quality of health during the longevity. Canada and the U.S. are countries full of chronic pill takers, that can do wonders but should only be used as a last resort as a lot of what pills do can be done by other means. Exercise and proper diet can do a lot for dealing with high blood pressure and people should lower it by those means, they will generally find they only need light medication or no medication at all.

I tried that same point in some thread about healthcare and used statistics to show that Canada isn't all that great at HEALTHY longevity and HEALTHY births. Unfortunately, a certain person here either ignored the posts or else chose to dismiss them regardless of the credibility of the source of the stats.

 

[AnnaG]

Ranking of health care system is only one indicator, ironsides. Canada does well in many indicators, in life expectancy it ranks no. 6 in the world (81 years), USA ranks no.35 (78 years).

In terms of number of years without a serious disease, Canada ranks no. 12 (72 years), USA ranks no. 24 (70 years). In terms of infant mortality, Canada ranks 23 (4.8), USA ranks 33 (6.3).

World Health Organization Disability Adjusted Healthy Life Expectancy Table (HALE)

As to health care system, there are several measures of it, you have simply picked the one that shows USA and Canada closest. Another measure by WHO ranks Canada as no. 35, USA as no. 72.

Health system attainment and performance in all Member States

As to that no. 30 for Canada and 37 for USA that you mention, that was produced by WHO in 2000, and they stopped using that measure. By their own admission, the task is very complicated and therefore, the measure may be unreliable.

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems

So what? We used to be among the top 5. It was not perfect, I admit, but it was sure A HECK OF A LOT MORE PERFECT THAN 30TH. We are going downhill. The object of the "game" is to get BETTER.

 

[JLM]

Sorry JLM, but you will never convince me that longevity has nothing to do with health care. Canada ranks no. 8 in the world in terms of life expectancy (81 years), Zambia ranks 194 (42 years). Are you saying that the difference in health care system has nothing to do with it?

Availability of adequate health care is definitely part of the picture. If health care is not available, life expectancy is going to be lower.

Show me where I said "nothing", I think what I said was "very little" of course good health care is going to have some effect on it like probably make the difference between 78 years and 78.3 years. The ONLY point I was trying to make was medical health care by itself wasn't going to raising the ranking appreciably. Healthy people tend to outlive patched up sick people. There's no comparison between CAnada the U.S. and third world countries where things like dysentary, malaria, scurvy, rickets, leprosy, cholera, typhoid, small pox, berry berry and sleeping sickness are running rampant

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Show me where I said "nothing", I think what I said was "very little" of course good health care is going to have some effect on it like probably make the difference between 78 years and 78.3 years. The ONLY point I was trying to make was medical health care by itself wasn't going to raising the ranking appreciably. Healthy people tend to outlive patched up sick people. There's no comparison between CAnada the U.S. and third world countries where things like dysentary, malaria, scurvy, rickets, leprosy, cholera, typhoid, small pox, berry berry and sleeping sickness are running rampant

Surely you are quibbling here, JLM? What is the difference between ‘very little’ and ‘nothing’? Very little.

The ONLY point I was trying to make was medical health care by itself wasn't going to raising the ranking appreciably.

You don’t know that until they improve the quality of health care. One way it could have an effect would be if they have more pre natal and post natal care for mothers. That would cut down on infant mortality and also increase life expectancy. Regular monitoring for cholesterol level, blood pressure, regular testing for cancer (prostate cancer, breast cancer etc.) would have the same effect.

Anybody can get emergency care in USA, but preventive care strictly depends upon what insurance you have (and it has user fees and copay). Improved preventive care probably would have an appreciable effect on life expectancy.

 

[AnnaG]

Surely you are quibbling here, JLM? What is the difference between ‘very little’ and ‘nothing’? Very little.

You are one to talk about quibbling? roflmao
What is the difference between 1/1000th of a tonne falling on your toe and nothing falling on your toe? Very little. What's the difference between a sandfly flying up your nose and nothing flying up there? Very little. lmao

The ONLY point I was trying to make was medical health care by itself wasn't going to raising the ranking appreciably.

You don’t know that until they improve the quality of health care. One way it could have an effect would be if they have more pre natal and post natal care for mothers. That would cut down on infant mortality and also increase life expectancy. Regular monitoring for cholesterol level, blood pressure, regular testing for cancer (prostate cancer, breast cancer etc.) would have the same effect.

Anybody can get emergency care in USA, but preventive care strictly depends upon what insurance you have (and it has user fees and copay). Improved preventive care probably would have an appreciable effect on life expectancy.

Still hasn't figured out how to use the quote button yet.
Anyway, preventative care depends on insurance? roflmao
Here are some preventative measures:

India: Integrating non-communicable disease prevention and management
Cardiovascular and cerebrovascular diseases, diabetes, and cancer are emerging as major public health problems in India. Apart from a rising proportion of older adults, population exposure to risks associated with certain chronic conditions is increasing. Obesity is increasing, physical activity is declining, and tobacco use is a substantial problem in the country.
Although it is commonly believed that non-communicable diseases (NCDs) are more prevalent in higher income groups, data from India’s 1995-1996 national survey showed that tobacco intake and alcohol misuse are higher in the poorest 20% of the income quintile. As a result, the government of India is anticipating that the prevalence of tobacco-related conditions will increase in lower socio-economic groups in the coming years.
The government has adopted an integrated NCD prevention and management programme. The main components of this programme are:

• Health education for primary and secondary prevention of NCDs through mobilizing community action;
• Development of treatment protocols for education and training of physicians in the prevention and management of NCDs;
• Strengthening/creation of facilities for the diagnosis and treatment of CVD and stroke, and the establishment of referral linkages;
• Promotion of the production of affordable drugs to combat diabetes, hypertension, and myocardial infarction;
• Development and support of institutions for the rehabilitation of people with disabilities;
• Research support for: Multisectoral population-based interventions to reduce risk factors;
• The role of nutrition and lifestyle-related factors;
• The development of cost effective interventions at each level of care.

Planning Commission, India, 2002.

All that hinges on insurance, huh? Fascinating.
Les & I keep fit and all that depends on insurance. Well, shiver me timbers. I learn something new every day.

 

[ironsides]

The point I've been trying to make to S.J. is "healthcare" as he sees it has very, very little to do with longevity and longevity is not a valid indicator of the quality of HEALTHCARE. Doctors, Hospitals, drugstores are very good at patching up sick people. Years ago there was a saying that the average 60 year old Swede was in better physical condition than the average 30 year old American. The Swedes excellent physical condition wasn't due to doctors and hospitals, it was in fact mainly due to their life style. Back to longevity, length isn't as important a criterion as quality of health during the longevity. Canada and the U.S. are countries full of chronic pill takers, that can do wonders but should only be used as a last resort as a lot of what pills do can be done by other means. Exercise and proper diet can do a lot for dealing with high blood pressure and people should lower it by those means, they will generally find they only need light medication or no medication at all.

I agree with you totally JLM, no argument from me with what you said. I just replied with under "Obama Health care" with what I thought was the main reason for poor health care in the U.S. #16.