Americans manufacture another nuclear crisis

earth_as_one

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Absolutely! I admit it.

You guys continually forget that Iraq USED chemical/biological weapons against both Iran and the Kurds. Not only that, before his execution, Saddam admitted to trying to deceive the world into believing he did have WMD (eao: Iraq's December 7, 2002 declaration claimed Iraq no longer possessed WMDs or the ability to make WMDs - see below) ........because he thought the UN/US were gutless and would never invade, but he was afraid of Iran, and wanted them to believe he had WMD. (eao: pleae provide a link to support your belief that Iraq did this)

Yep. Still glad the US invaded Iraq. Death to Tyrants!

I just hope the Iraqis settle down enough to take advantage of the long-term gift offered them.......you guys see so so so short-term.

Would you be angry if a hostile foreign invasion force made up reasons to invade Canada and killed your friends, family, laid waste to their country and killed about a million people? I would probably become violent myself, even though I believe in non-violence.

Recent polls indicate Iraqis are human beings just like us:

BBC
10 September 2007

About 70% of Iraqis believe security has deteriorated in the area covered by the US military "surge" of the past six months, an opinion poll suggests.

The survey for the BBC, ABC News and NHK of more than 2,000 people across Iraq also suggests that nearly 60% see attacks on US-led forces as justified.

This rises to 93% among Sunni Muslims compared with 50% for Shia....

BBC NEWS | Middle East | US surge has failed - Iraqi poll

Here is another poll which shows how Iraqis feel:
http://www.gulfinthemedia.com/files/article_en/271345.pdf?PHPSESSID=b7f99ff78f182802bbccbfc62e993774

How many times to I have to remind you that two weeks before the US declared war, UN Weapon Inspectors declared they were making good progress in resolving all remaining disarmament issues and were only a months away from declaring Iraq WMD free?

SECURITY COUNCIL 7 MARCH 2003
Blix:

...How much time would it take to resolve the key remaining disarmament tasks? While cooperation can and is to be immediate, disarmament and at any rate the verification of it cannot be instant. Even with a proactive Iraqi attitude, induced by continued outside pressure, it would still take some time to verify sites and items, analyse documents, interview relevant persons, and draw conclusions. It would not take years, nor weeks, but months...

Security Council 7 March 2003

I keep posting references to this report, yet you keep acting like it never existed. You keep making posts based on MSM deceptions and misinformation.

Iraq never claimed to possess WMDs since the mid 1990's. On Dec. 7, 2002, Iraq submitted a detailed declaration to the UNSC which claimed they abandoned their WMD programs years earlier and that they no longer possessed WMDs or the ability to make WMDs. Everything that's been found since, supports Iraq's declaration as 100% accurate and proves that our MSM and leaders were deliberately deceptive.

December 7, 2002: Iraq Submits Declaration of Biological, Chemical, and Nuclear Weapons Capabilities to UN

...Iraq submits its declaration of military and civilian chemical, biological and nuclear capabilities to the UN one day early. It consists of 12 CD-ROMs and 43 spiral-bound volumes containing a total of 11,807 pages. General Hussam Amin, the officer in charge of Iraq’s National Monitoring Directorate, tells reporters a few hours before the declaration is formally submitted: “We declared that Iraq is empty of weapons of mass destruction. I reiterate Iraq has no weapons of mass destruction...

December 7, 2002: Iraq Submits Declaration of Biological, Chemical, and Nuclear Weapons Capabilities to UN

I can't see how “We declared that Iraq is empty of weapons of mass destruction. I reiterate Iraq has no weapons of mass destruction" could be misinterpreted as Iraq claimed to have WMDs.

...As of December 1998, there were no unresolved disarmament issues in the nuclear area...

...On 7 December 2002, Iraq submitted to the IAEA its "Currently Accurate Full and Complete Declaration" (CAFCD) as requested by the Council in resolution 1441 (2002). In that document, Iraq declared that, "No activities of any substance related to the former Iraqi Nuclear Programme were carried out during and beyond April 1991. All nuclear program activities were practically terminated and abandoned during April 1991 and only reports of previous accomplishments and new missions (non-proscribed) were issued later." As reported in the IAEA's update report of 27 January 2003, and confirmed in the subsequent statements of the Director General before the Security Council on 14 February and 7 March 2003, the IAEA has found to date no evidence or plausible indication of the revival of a nuclear weapons programme in Iraq.

As indicated above, there were no unresolved disarmament issues as of December 1998...

News Center : In Focus : IAEA and Iraq

Now the same sources tell us to fear Iran's non-existant nuclear weapons and empty buildings and you still believe them. Usually after people have been fooled a few times they smarten up.
 

earth_as_one

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...Saddam admitted to trying to deceive the world into believing he did have WMD....

According to your link:
Saddam Hussein told an FBI interviewer before he was hanged that he allowed the world to believe he had weapons of mass destruction because he was worried about appearing weak to Iran...

..."The threat from Iran was the major factor as to why he did not allow the return of UN inspectors," Piro wrote. "Hussein stated he was more concerned about Iran discovering Iraq's weaknesses and vulnerabilities than the repercussions of the United States for his refusal to allow UN inspectors back into Iraq."...

Saddam Hussein Said WMD Talk Helped Him Look Strong to Iran - washingtonpost.com
Your link claims Hussein kept quiet while our MSM and leaders spun lies and deceptions regarding Iraq. Even if that's true, it still doesn't justify killing about a million people.

Also while Hussein's concerns regarding Iran were a major factor, they weren't the only factor. Another factor was that UN Weapon Inspectors as per UNSCOM had been infiltrated by US/UK spy operations in violation of the terms of the weapon inspection agreement:

FAIR ACTION ALERT: Spying in Iraq: From Fact to Allegation

BBC News | Middle East | Unscom 'infiltrated by spies'

Did America Break the Rules By Spying on Iraq? - Bruce Gottlieb - Slate Magazine

frontline: spying on saddam | PBS

My links in my previous post shows that Iraq submitted a detailed and accurate account of their WMD programs in December 7 2002. Then Iraq proactively cooperated with UN weapon inspections. Nothing Iraq claimed or anything found by weapon inspectors justified a war, let alone an urgent requirement for war. Iraq's claims and evidence gathered by UNMOVIC supported letting the weapon inspectors finish their work. Everything found in Iraq before and since the invasion indicates Iraq submitted an accurate record of their WMD activity, they weren't hiding anything and UNMOVIC had pretty much found everything in Iraq worth finding.

While the majority of people and maybe even a few Iranians may have been deceived, everyone on the Security Council including the US and UK representatives were aware that Iraq was not a WMD threat. The US and UK leaders also knew they couldn't keep people ignorant indefinitely. That's why they had to act urgently. They could see the window of opportunity closing. Blix's March 2003 report probably triggered the war.

You really should read Blix's March 2003 report one of these days. Here is the link again:
Security Council 7 March 2003

I wish people would be less gullible this time around. But based on what people post here, I'd say a clear majority have indicated that they will be just as easy to manipulate into supporting an unjustified, unprovoked war which will kill millions of innocent Iranians as they were manipulated into supporting an unjustified, unprovoked war which killed about a million innocent Iraqis.

Fear over what is essentially a declared empty building still under construction and over a year away from completition pretty much proves that in general people aren't that bright. If my posts make even a few people think critically, then its worth my time.
 

gopher

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''I do believe you have hit the nail on the head. Some people just can't get enough of war. ''


Especially since war yields war profits. All we need do is to tax all war profits at a 100% rate and we will no longer have any wars.
 

Colpy

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EAO, your last attempt to twist the words in the Washington Post is sooooo pathetic....most of the world DID believe Saddam had WMD........because he behaved as if he did....no amount of "cut and paste" can change that.
 

catman

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Other countries thought that he might have some scuds buried somewhere but NOT to the extent that the Bush admin was claiming and they certainly did not believe that Saddam was a threat to the western world like Bush and his poddle Blair were claiming. History shows that they were at best reckless and at worst liars.
 

catman

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Sep 3, 2006
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I wouldn't go quite that far.........The United States did not wish the Iranian Islamic Revolution to spread to Iraq.....and so provided extremely limited support to Iraq........if you want to talk about Iraqi weapons purchases in the billions of dollars, and Iraqi WMD.....you would have to talk to China, Russia, Germany and France.

To call the USA and Iraq allies is stretching it a bit.....

Nope. They were allies because they had a common enemy. The US supported Iraq during its war with Iran. There was no outrage over the use of chemical weapons back then. It was just brought up as another excuse to justify the illegal invasion.
 

ironsides

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When Iraq used chemical weapons on the Kurds and Iran they were allies of the United States. They didn't have a problem with it then.


Who didn't have a problem with it then? Iraq didn't ask or tell anyone when it conducted its war with Iran. You seem to forget that Saddam gassed the Kurds while the UN was maintaining a no fly zone and supposedly limiting his military actions after the first Gulf War. Iraq fought Iran with Russian equipment or do people conveniently forget that little piece of history. Iran fought with American equipment.
 

ironsides

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If they can, they will. The Iranian nuclear program is designed around very advanced equipment. I would not want to see a nuclear Iraq with a bomb. With the whole mid-east in chaos, Hamas ,Palestinians as well as other Muslim radical groups around the world having sissy fits all the time they don't need a nuclear option added to their arsenal. Nobody is planning a invasion of Iran, just reacting to their threats. Do what it takes to limit their nuclear capabilities. And never mind who already has or does not have the bomb, no one has used one since WW-II, so some have control, some say Israel has nuclear bombs, has anyone ever heard of one going off, have any been tested. If they do have bombs, they have used a lot of restraint so far not blowing some people off the map. I do not see Israel blowing bombs off in crowded market places. You cannot hide from the eye in the sky.
 

earth_as_one

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Alot of misinformation has been posted above. Here are the facts:

Iraq acquired chemical and biological weapon capability with US assistance. (Also many other nations assisted including Canada, but the US was the biggest source of aid). Iraq used their CWs during the Iran/Iraq war.

During this war, the US gave Iraq access to satellite imagery which allowed Iraq to see Iran's military positions and use their CWs more effectively. The US also loaned Iraq military advisors who interpreted this data and provided battle planning assistance. These advisors even went onto the battlefields along side Iraqi officers even on the Iranian side of the border where they reported back to the US their observations regarding Iraq's CW attacks.

In 1988, Iraq began using chemical weapons against Kurdish rebels in Northern Iraq. When some rebels took refuge in Halabja, Iraq's military gased the entire village. When news of this war crime reached the outside world, it was almost universally condemned. The US was one of the few nations which did not condemn this attack. Many nations stopped selling Iraq arms. The US compensated by increasing their Iraq arms sales. Some members of Congress disagreed with this policy, but President Reagan threatened to veto any bill which would punish Iraq for using CWs against civilians or limit the US arm sales and WMD technology to Iraq. The Iran-Iraq war ended August 1988.

United States support for Iraq during the Iran–Iraq war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

U.S. Diplomatic and Commercial Relationships with Iraq 1980 - 1990 by Nathaniel Hurd

CBC News: the fifth estate - The Forgotten People - One Man's Battle

The US/UK and France imposed the "no fly zones" on Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War. This activity as it was carried out by these nations was not authorized by any UNSC resolution and was illegal. France stopped participating in the late 1990's.

...I took the trouble to ask Dr Boutros Boutros-Ghali, who was secretary-general of the UN when the US and Britain set up the so-called "no-fly zones", in which they dictate whose aircraft can fly. "The Security Council never approved or in any way ratified these zones," he said. Does that make them illegal? I asked. "Yes," he replied...
ITV - John Pilger - Labour claims its actions are lawful while it bombs Iraq, strarves its people and sells arms to corrupt states

The UN Secretary General wasn't the only person aware the "no-fly zones" were illegal. So did the US and UK leadership:

...President Bush's "zero tolerance" for Iraqi violations of UN resolutions has apparently dropped to "two percent tolerance." According to administration officials, Iraqi forces have once again fired on U.S. planes patrolling the no-fly zones in Iraq, which U.S. officials had previously claimed would constitute an immediate justification for invading Iraq, not only under the principle of "self-defense" but also for violation of the recently passed UN resolution.
The Bush administration, however, is backing off and so far is not using the shootings as a "self-defense" excuse to invade Iraq, and so far isn't even taking the matter to the UN Security Council.

There's a very good reason for the government's decision: Despite their mild protestations to the contrary, U.S. officials know that the no-fly zones have been illegal from the get-go. And their decision not to use either "self-defense" or violation of the UN resolution as a justification for invading Iraq is an implicit acknowledgment of that illegality.

The no-fly zones were unilaterally established by the U.S. government after the Persian Gulf War, supposedly to enforce UN resolutions on Iraq. There was one big problem, however: The United Nations never authorized the no-fly zones to be established....

http://www.fff.org/comment/com0211h.asp

If they were legal, the UNSC would have supported US/UK resolutions to invade and occupy Iraq. Instead they regarded Iraq's attempts to shoot down American and British warcraft in Iraqi airspace as legitimate self defense and never authorized the 2003 US led invasion.

Annan Says Iraqi No-Fly Zone Firing No Violation

The US and UK flew an increasing number of sorties into Iraq before the 2003 war crime and bombed Iraqi military installations in an effort to soften up Iraq for invasion and if possible provoke Iraq into war:

The war before the war
New Statesman - The war before the war



EAO, your last attempt to twist the words in the Washington Post is sooooo pathetic....most of the world DID believe Saddam had WMD........because he behaved as if he did....no amount of "cut and paste" can change that.

The WP never said Hussein claimed to possess WMDs. It said he allowed the world to think he possessed them. That's not the same thing and the difference is significant.

I think you are having trouble with the concept that "keeping your mouth shut", is different from "opening your mouth."

If someone in your neighborhood starts a rumor that you have a big mean dog in your backyard and you keep your mouth shut and don't correct that misperception, that's not the same as actually having a big mean dog or claiming you have a big mean dog.

Also who is the "world"? Most of the world did not participate in the Iraq war crime. Before the invasion and shortly thereafter, a majority of the world denounced it.

The February 15, 2003 anti-war protest was a coordinated day of protests across the world against the imminent invasion of Iraq. Millions of people protested in approximately 800 cities around the world. According to BBC News, between six and ten million people took part in protests in up to sixty countries over the weekend of the 15th and 16th; other estimates range from eight million to thirty million.

Some of the largest protests took place in Europe. The protest in Rome involved around 3 million people, and is listed in the 2004 Guinness Book of World Records as the largest anti-war rally in history....

February 15, 2003 anti-war protest - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There has been significant opposition to the Iraq War across the world, both before and during the initial 2003 invasion of Iraq by the United States,the United Kingdom and smaller contingents from other nations, and throughout the subsequent occupation. People and groups opposing the war include the governments of many nations which did not take part in the invasion, and significant sections of the populace in those which did...

Opposition to the Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you look at the position of UNSC members at the time they were divided, with 4 supporting the US position, 7 opposing and 4 unable to make a clear statement one way or the other:
United Nations Security Council and the Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The "world" is not just the US, the UK and a few other nations that supported the Iraq war crime. Canada did not support the invasion and refused to participate in it.

The leaders of coalition of the bribed and coerced manufactured so much misinformation and bold face lies about Iraq that after a while they began to believe their own lies. Currently many of these same countries are busy convincing themselves that Iran plans to acquire nuclear weapons now.

What is important and what counts is what Iraq officially declared and what UN weapon inspectors found.

Iraq's 12 CD-ROM, 43 spiral-bound volume, 11,807 page declaration of their military and civilian chemical, biological and nuclear capabilities submitted to the UN on December 7, 2002 was summarized by General Hussam Amin:

“We declared that Iraq is empty of weapons of mass destruction. I reiterate Iraq has no weapons of mass destruction"

If your beliefs are true, then you should be able to find a quote by an Iraqi leader claiming they possessed WMDs between December 7, 2002 and the March 20, 2003 invasion.

The organization tasked with assessing Iraq's WMD threat was UNMOVIC. Ultimately it was their findings which should have the guided the world's policies regarding Iraq. Like Bush you choose to ignore their report which basically finds that Iraq is not a WMD threat and that all remaining disarmament issues could be resolved within a few months.

You should read this report:
Security Council 7 March 2003
 
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earth_as_one

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If they can, they will. The Iranian nuclear program is designed around very advanced equipment. I would not want to see a nuclear Iraq with a bomb. With the whole mid-east in chaos, Hamas ,Palestinians as well as other Muslim radical groups around the world having sissy fits all the time they don't need a nuclear option added to their arsenal. Nobody is planning a invasion of Iran, just reacting to their threats. Do what it takes to limit their nuclear capabilities. And never mind who already has or does not have the bomb, no one has used one since WW-II, so some have control, some say Israel has nuclear bombs, has anyone ever heard of one going off, have any been tested. If they do have bombs, they have used a lot of restraint so far not blowing some people off the map. I do not see Israel blowing bombs off in crowded market places. You cannot hide from the eye in the sky.

This post is ridiculous misinformation. Israel has a long history of deliberately attacking and killing civilians and civilian infrastructure.

During Israel's most recent slaughter in Gaza, their military razed entire neighborhoods, including residential buildings full of civilians, despite encountering little resistance from militant groups. Israeli forces attacked bomb shelters full of civilians, hospitals full of health professionals and wounded civilians, police stations, fire trucks, ambulances... Name any type of civilian target and Israeli forces attacked it.

Israel's actions were investigated by the UN and NGO's like Amnesty International and have been classified as war crimes.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/FactFindingMission.htm

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE15/015/2009/en

If you don't believe this, then witness the evidence for yourself. The videos below document Israel's iron fisted unrestrained indiscriminate devastation against civilian targets with conventional and chemical weapons:

WARNING SOME IMAGES IN THIS VIDEOS ARE GRAPHIC

YouTube - ISRAEL WAR CRIMES GAZA 1//5. Zeitoun Village killings.

YouTube - ISRAEL WAR CRIMES GAZA 2/5. Attack on UN school.

YouTube - ISRAEL WAR CRIMES GAZA 3/5 . Mass Killings in Gaza.

YouTube - ISRAEL WAR CRIMES GAZA 4/5. Witness Reports.

YouTube - ISRAEL WAR CRIMES GAZA 5/5. Weapons and war tactics.

Troops' testimonies disclose loose rules of engagement and use of civilians as human shields. Palestinian houses were systematically destroyed by 'insane artillery firepower:
Israeli soldiers reveal the brutal truth of Gaza attack - Middle East, World - The Independent

If you can't believe UN and AI or your own eyes, then how about Israeli soldier testimony? This website is full of Israeli soldier testimony about what they saw and did. Some testimony is completely insane.
Breaking The Silence - Israeli soldiers talk about the occupied territories
 
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earth_as_one

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Other countries thought that he might have some scuds buried somewhere but NOT to the extent that the Bush admin was claiming and they certainly did not believe that Saddam was a threat to the western world like Bush and his poddle Blair were claiming. History shows that they were at best reckless and at worst liars.

They told lies, that makes them liars. Now they are lying to us again about Iran. If you believe these sources again, that makes you a fool.
 

ironsides

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Nope. They were allies because they had a common enemy. The US supported Iraq during its war with Iran. There was no outrage over the use of chemical weapons back then. It was just brought up as another excuse to justify the illegal invasion.


The U.S. feared the spread of the Iranian Islamic Revolution far more than it did the spread of nuclear weapons thus they may not have officially supported Iraq, but did look the other way quite a few times. To bad the rest of the world didn't feel that way then, maybe we wouldn't be having the troubles we are today.
The outrage was that Iraq used it's chemical weapons right under our noses again against the Kurds who were now our allies.

 

ironsides

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earth_as_one;
Stop quoting what happened in Gaza, it was only part of what is called war. As I said, Israel does not blow up random bombs in market places, they are not "terrorists", those who do are. You and the rest of A.I. supporters do not understand that wars are war crimes, you cannot single out specific parts of a war as humane or not. Wars are created by civilians, and fought by soldiers. If I am not mistaken A.I. also found the Palestinians guilty as well. Wonder what they would have said about the destruction of Berlin by the Russians during WW-II? I do not disagree with in general what you are saying, just that you have picked an chosen how and who you say it about. What is happening in the Mid-East between themselves is a war crime.

Is this not a war crime?
"BAGHDAD – A spate of car bombings killed 19 people Sunday in Iraq's western Anbar province, once a hotbed of insurgency that later become a showcase for restoring peace."
Series of car bombs kills 19 in western Iraq - Yahoo! News
 
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earth_as_one

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Your right Ironsides, Israel didn't randomly blow up civilian targets. They deliberately blew up civilian targets.

Day 1:

...there was a shocking quality to Saturday’s attacks, which began in broad daylight as police cadets were graduating, women were shopping at the outdoor market, and children were emerging from school.

The center of Gaza City was a scene of chaotic horror, with rubble everywhere, sirens wailing, and women shrieking as dozens of mutilated bodies were laid out on the pavement and in the lobby of Shifa Hospital so that family members could identify them. The dead included civilians, including several construction workers and at least two children in school uniforms...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/28/world/middleeast/28mideast.html

Israel deliberately bombed the police, women shopping and schoolchildren on the first day. After that most people hid as best they could inside the Gaza concentration camp.
 

earth_as_one

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The U.S. feared the spread of the Iranian Islamic Revolution far more than it did the spread of nuclear weapons thus they may not have officially supported Iraq, but did look the other way quite a few times. To bad the rest of the world didn't feel that way then, maybe we wouldn't be having the troubles we are today.
The outrage was that Iraq used it's chemical weapons right under our noses again against the Kurds who were now our allies.


The US sending advisers and equipment to Iraq help them use American satellite imagery for battle planning. They increased their arms shipments to compensate for an international arms embargo. You are completely rewriting and whitewashing American history.
 

ironsides

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The US sending advisers and equipment to Iraq help them use American satellite imagery for battle planning. They increased their arms shipments to compensate for an international arms embargo. You are completely rewriting and whitewashing American history.


According to who? I am not saying the U.S. did not supply Iraq in the war with Iran, and they did give them updated intelligence reports based upon satellite technology. I am saying that the U.S. supported what turned out to be the lesser of two evils. I would support doing it again if the need ever arose, only this time letting Iraq win.
 

earth_as_one

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Back on topic:

Iran has offered to allow another country to finish the enrichment process:

...Enrichment is a central concern because the technology can be used to make fuel for nuclear power plants and research reactors at low levels or atomic weapons at high levels. Having the higher-level enrichment carried out abroad would be an important confidence-building step that could help ease Western concerns that Iran is seeking to use its civilian nuclear work as a cover for weapons development.

It would also be a long-sought compromise because Iran has repeatedly refused to involve an outside country, insisting it has the right to a full domestic enrichment program that it maintains is only for peaceful purposes such as energy production.
Ali Shirzadian, spokesman for the Atomic Energy Organization of Iran, told The Associated Press Saturday that Iran will proceed to enrich its uranium to the higher level of about 20 percent needed for the Tehran reactor if no deal is reached in talks on Oct. 19 in Vienna.


That is still well below the 90 percent level of enrichment needed for nuclear weapons, but it would generate significant concern for the nations trying to persuade Iran to limit its enrichment program. So far, Iran has produced about a ton of uranium enriched to less than 5 percent.


Shirzadian said Iran will need up to 660 pounds (300 kilograms) of the more enriched uranium to keep the Tehran reactor running for another 10 to 15 years. He said the facility — which Iran says is used for medical and scientific research — only has enough fuel to run for another year and a half....


..."The talks will be a test of the sincerity of those countries," he said. "Should talks fail or sellers refuse to provide Iran with its required fuel, Iran will enrich uranium to the 20 percent level needed itself," he said.


Shirzadian said Iran prefers to buy the fuel from the world market, saying that would be cheaper than producing it at home....


The Associated Press: Iran will enrich uranium further if talks fail


Iran's medical research reactor needs a higher level of enriched uranium than its power reactor. But neither reactor needs anything close to the level of enrichment needed for making nuclear weapon components.



Russia has surplus enriched uranium stockpiles suitable for Iran's nuclear power and medical reactors. Understandably Iran does not want their electrical power generation to be at the mercy of the US. Russia might be a reasonable compromise. Iran needs only enough reserves so that they have time to start up their enrichment facilities if they loose the ability to import enriched uranium.