The Atheist Holy War

Dexter Sinister

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Oct 1, 2004
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how would we know that the evidence points towards God?
It'd just have to be something for which there's no other conceivable explanation. I like Carl Sagan's example: a clear and unequivocal message from him encrypted in the decimal digits of pi. For instance, if we started at the 666th digit, and used the next 666 digits as pixel intensities for one line of an image, the next 666 as the second line, and so on, until we've got an image 666x666 pixels, and it turns out to be a picture of the Pope... I think that'd convince me.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
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It'd just have to be something for which there's no other conceivable explanation. I like Carl Sagan's example: a clear and unequivocal message from him encrypted in the decimal digits of pi. For instance, if we started at the 666th digit, and used the next 666 digits as pixel intensities for one line of an image, the next 666 as the second line, and so on, until we've got an image 666x666 pixels, and it turns out to be a picture of the Pope... I think that'd convince me.


That makes several assumptions, Dexter. When you say ‘there is no other explanation’, that again makes it the God of ‘gap’. Just because there is no other explanation does not necessarily mean that God is responsible.

Then you are assuming that Pope is a godly man, that Catholic religion represents true God. May be true God is Allah, Yahweh, Vishnu, Zeus etc.

Suppose instead of the pope, it gave a likeness of say some Ayatollah or Mullah (with a huge big beard, they look pretty much alike), or of Prophet Abraham, or of a Shankaracharya (Hindu holy leader) or of a Bodhisattva (a Buddhist holy man) etc., how would you know?
 

Dexter Sinister

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That makes several assumptions, Dexter. When you say ‘there is no other explanation’, that again makes it the God of ‘gap’. Just because there is no other explanation does not necessarily mean that God is responsible.
That's not what I said. I said "no other conceivable explanation." In other words, it has to be something miraculous, in the way David Hume defined it: no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle unless the testimony be of such a kind that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish.
Then you are assuming that Pope is a godly man, that Catholic religion represents true God.
No I'm not, that was just an example of something a deity might do to demonstrate his reality. I'm sure a deity could come up something better than that. I'd have thought my use of the number 666 there would have led you to quite another conclusion.
 

Spade

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Nov 18, 2008
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I recall about 25 years ago, a well-known activist priest (Father Daniel Berrigan I believe)was interviewed on CBC.
He was asked if he believed in miracles.
His reply was, "Of course, but I've never seen one!"
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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I recall about 25 years ago, a well-known activist priest (Father Daniel Berrigan I believe)was interviewed on CBC.
He was asked if he believed in miracles.
His reply was, "Of course, but I've never seen one!"

I have seen plenty of "miracles" but I don't believe in them because they can be explained as something outside most people's experience. Just because people do not understand that something is possible with their limited understanding of how life works, doesn't mean somethings are not possible. Most people look at life with blinders on.
http://family.webshots.com/photo/2894618830053350482peDmom
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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I recall about 25 years ago, a well-known activist priest (Father Daniel Berrigan I believe)was interviewed on CBC.
He was asked if he believed in miracles.
His reply was, "Of course, but I've never seen one!"

One of your champions, Hume's argument against miracles is the most sophisticated, and not easily refuted. Perhaps that’s one reason it is still believed today. Here is Hume's argument in syllogistic form:

1. Natural law is by definition a description of a regular occurrence.
2. A miracle is by definition a rare occurrence.
3. The evidence for the regular is always greater than that for the rare.
4. A wise man always bases his belief on the greater evidence.
5. Therefore, a wise man should never believe in miracles.

If those four premises are true, then the conclusion necessarily follows-- the wise man should never believe in miracles. Unfortunately for Hume and for those over the years who have believed him, the argument has a false premise--premise 3 is not necessarily true.

The evidence for the regular is not always greater than that for the rare. At first glance this might not seem to be the case. In the age of instant replay, premise 3 seems to make sense. For example, a football referee sees a play from one angle at full speed, while we get to see it from several angles in slow motion. We have greater evidence seeing a play over and over again (the regular) than does the ref who only sees it once (the rare).

But what may be true for a videotaped football game is not necessarily true for every event in life. To disprove premise 3 there only needs to be one counterexample. Here's several, and they are from Hume's own naturalistic worldview:

1. The origin of the universe happened only once. It was a rare, unrepeatable event, yet virtually every naturalist believes that the Big Bang evidence proves that the universe exploded into being.

2. The origin of life happened only once. It too was a rare, unrepeatable event, yet every naturalist believes that life arose spontaneously from non-life somewhere on the earth or elsewhere in the universe.

3. The origin of new life forms also happened only once. Those rare, unrepeatable events are nevertheless dogmatically believed by most naturalists, who say it all happened by unobserved (i.e. rare) macroevolutionary processes.

4. In fact, the entire history of the world is comprised of rare, unrepeatable events. For example, David Hume's own birth happened only once, but he had no trouble believing it occurred!

In every one of these counterexamples from Hume's own naturalistic worldview, his third premise must be disregarded or considered false. If Hume really believed in that premise, he would not have believed in his own birth or his own naturalistic worldview!

So we know by some of these counterexamples that Hume's third premise, and thus his entire argument, cannot be true. But what are the specific problems with this naturalistic kind of thinking?

First, it confuses believability with possibility. Even if premise 3 were true, the argument would not disprove the possibility of miracles; it would only question their believability. So even if you personally witnessed, say, Jesus Christ rising from dead as he predicted -- if you were in the tomb, verified the body was dead, and then saw him get up and walk out of the tomb-- Hume's argument says that you (a "wise" person)shouldn't believe it.

There's something wrong with an argument that tells you to disbelieve what you have verified to be true.

Second, Hume confuses probability with evidence. He doesn't weigh the evidence for each rare event; rather, he adds the evidence for all regular events and suggests that this somehow makes all rare events unworthy of belief. But this is flawed reasoning as well. There are many improbable (rare) events in life that we believe when we have good evidence for them. For example, a hole-in-one is a rare event, but when we witness one we have no trouble believing it. We certainly don't say to the golfer, "Since the evidence for the regular is always greater than that for the rare, I'm not going to believe your shot unless you can tee it up and do it five times in a row!" Likewise, we certainly don't tell a lottery winner who beat 76 million-to-one odds that he's not going to get his money until he can win it five times in a row! No, in these cases, the evidence for the rare is greater than that for the regular. Sober, sane eyewitnesses provide greater evidence for a rare hole-in-one no matter how regularly that golfer had missed the hole in the past.

So the issue is not whether an event is regular or rare -- the issue is whether we have good evidence for the event. We must weigh evidence for the event in question, not add evidence for all previous events.

Third, Hume is actually arguing in a circle. Instead of evaluating the veracity of the evidence for each miracle claim, Hume rules out belief in miracles in advance because he believes there is uniform experience against them. As usual, good guy C. S. Lewis has great insight:

Now of course we must agree with Hume that if there is absolutely
"uniform experience"
against miracles, if in other words they have
never happened, why then they never have. Unfortunately we know
the experience against them to be uniform only if we know that all the
reports of them are false. And we can know all the reports to be false
only if we know already that miracles have never occurred. In fact, we
are arguing in a circle.


So Hume commits the commits a fatal error as he hides his conclusion in the premise of his argument by way of a false philosophical presupposition. His false presupposition is that all human experiences have been against miracles. How can he know that? He can't, so he presupposes it.

The only way to know for sure is to investigate the evidence for each miracle claim. Assuming that each and every miracle claim is false, as Hume does, is clearly illegitimate.

Finally, although Hume correctly defines a miracle as a rare event, he then punishes it for being a rare event! It's as if Hume is saying, "If only miracles happened more often, then we could believe them." But if miracles happened more often, say, regularly (to use Hume's terminology), then they would cease being miracles (rare events), and we might consider them natural laws or part of unexplained natural phenomena.

But as soon as we consider them natural in origin, then they would no longer get our attention as special acts of God. Its rarity is one of the characteristics that distinguishes a miracle from everything else! To put it another way, the reason miracles get our attention is because we know that such an event could not be produced by natural laws.

So by Hume's logic, even if there is a God who performs miracles, we shouldn't believe any miracles he performs because they are not regular events. Again, there's something wrong with an argument that tells you to disbelieve what has actually occurred. And there's something wrong with an argument that requires that miracles not be miracles to be believed.

The bottom line is that Hume, without justification, simply declares that the only believable events are regular events, and since a miracle is not a regular event, it fails to meet this artificial criteria. As mentioned above, if we can't believe in rare events then we can't believe anything from history, because history is comprised of succeeding rare, unrepeatable events.

Spade, not believing in a miracle based on the fact that its a rare event is clearly unreasonable.

Checkmate. :cool:
 
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Cliffy

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You have not understood, and in fact have seriously misrepresented, David Hume's argument.

That is his MO. He is a little more skilled at debating ideas with concepts that really hold no water and making them sound good to those who already believe as he does but are opaque to those who know differently.
 

Cliffy

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Alley,

You are the master of mental masturbation. That soliloquy was one of your best circular arguments that really didn't go anywhere in a few thousand words. You may have checkmated yourself with that one.;-)
 

dumpthemonarchy

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Karrie, many Agnostics are really Atheists, but they prefer to call themselves Agnostics (just as some conservatives prefer to call themselves libertarians). The term ‘Atheist’ still has some stigma attached to it (though not as much as before). For instance according to Bush (the former president); one cannot be an Atheist and a patriotic American at the same time. By calling themselves Agnostic, they keep the possibilities open, appear more open minded.

The difference between Agnostic and Atheist is one of degree, not one of kind. Agnostic is not sure whether God exists, he thinks there is some possibility that God may exist. Atheist also thinks that there is some possibility that God may exist (how can one know something like this with 100% certainty?). However, according to an Atheist the possibility of God existing is so remote as to be negligible.

Yeah, a little complicated but include me in both. The fact the question came up that a US president has to be religious means religion is doomed in the West. Finally. Obama isn't that religious, like many he uses it more for social networking and getting ahead.

It's a little new to call myself an atheist or agnostic, for so long I just assumed some kind of God was out there, but living with superstitious Asians in Asia really changed my mind and made me give God the boot. We live in a material world, what matters is matter. Ask any mother about her kids. That's real.
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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Alley,

You are the master of mental masturbation. That soliloquy was one of your best circular arguments that really didn't go anywhere in a few thousand words. You may have checkmated yourself with that one.;-)

As usual the only way to make your viewpoint seem intelligible is to assert that any contradictory claims are circular or mental masturbation.

One reason Hume doesn't believe in miracles because they are not regular events which isn't logical as you can see in my argument. The origin of the universe happened only once. Do you not believe that it happened?
 

Cliffy

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How is it circular? Show me the circle.
You start with a belief and try to justify it to someone who doesn't. Your way of debating alwayz ends up where you started. I guess most debates do. I don't like to debate. I accept that what a person believes is OK for them. Who am I to try to change that. I state my position and I may even present some stuff to show why I believe it but to me that is only important to me.

I like to express my opinions as a way of honing my mental and writing skills. I am not attached to whether anyone agrees or thinks the same. I like to hear what others think of what I say to see if it stands up to scrutiny. I may even change my mind if I am shown to be misguided or misinformed. My beliefs and thought processes are not rigid and sometimes I may seem to contradict myself. That is because what I believe one minute may not be what I am believing the next. I find it liberating, others might think I'm crazy. That is cool too. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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You start with a belief and try to justify it to someone who doesn't. Your way of debating alwayz ends up where you started. I guess most debates do. I don't like to debate. I accept that what a person believes is OK for them. Who am I to try to change that. I state my position and I may even present some stuff to show why I believe it but to me that is only important to me.

I like to express my opinions as a way of honing my mental and writing skills. I am not attached to whether anyone agrees or thinks the same. I like to hear what others think of what I say to see if it stands up to scrutiny. I may even change my mind if I am shown to be misguided or misinformed. My beliefs and thought processes are not rigid and sometimes I may seem to contradict myself. That is because what I believe one minute may not be what I am believing the next. I find it liberating, others might think I'm crazy. That is cool too. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Not crazy at all, makes good sense to me.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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As usual the only way to make your viewpoint seem intelligible is to assert that any contradictory claims are circular or mental masturbation.

One reason Hume doesn't believe in miracles because they are not regular events which isn't logical as you can see in my argument. The origin of the universe happened only once. Do you not believe that it happened?
I always though infinity was endless - no beginning or end. I'm not sure there was a beginning or a creation but then I think that what most people call god is the universe.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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I was replying to other post, which stated the opposite, just wanted to switch
it around, as it can be 'taken' either way.


.

not at all, I read that, she stated that atheists adjust their thinking as life changes,and believers have their information and stick to it. Now those are
my words, not hers, but that is how I understood her, let me know if you still
think otherwise, and I will go over it again, maybe I'm missing something.

THIS is what confused me talloola.

But, since it's all devolved into one viewpoint mocking the other, rather than conversation, I'll leave you guys to your superior viewpoint.