The Atheist Holy War

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
Science has nothing to say abut why the universe was created.
Not at all. It has a great deal to say about "why" questions, they're perfectly legitimate scientific questions. On that particular one, for instance, which I usually think of as "why is there something rather than nothing," what we currently know of how things work indicates that "nothing" is unstable. Victor Stenger's even put a number on it; he suggests "something" is about 40% more likely than "nothing." String theory looks at some very deep "why" questions, such as, why are the masses of the elementary particles what they are, and could they have been different, why are the constants of nature what they are, could they have been something else, are they really constant, and so on. The mathematical structure of string theory suggests things like that might be predictable. The masses of elementary particles might appear as resonant vibration modes of the strings, which have a certain tension based on their energy levels, which is equivalent to mass, though the math is so difficult nobody's figured out how to do it yet. One interesting result though: string theory does require the existence of a particle with zero mass and spin 2, which quantum theory recognizes as the graviton, the hypothesized particle of the gravitational interaction. Gravity is implicit in string theory, and is completely absent from quantum theory, which is the source of the hope that string theory might show the way to the long-sought theory of everything.

But I digress, as I often do. More to the point, if god exists, he must interact with the cosmos to some degree if he's to have any meaning at all, so there must be evidence of that interaction. That makes his existence an empirical claim about the nature of reality, which is what science deals with, and science in its broadest sense, as AnnaG used the term above, offers plenty of reasons for concluding the postulated deity does not exist.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
Thank you Dexter. I hope you've seen that the respect of general opinion, and ability to discuss, goes both ways.
You're welcome, and yes I've seen that it goes both ways. Depends who I'm talking with. If I get respect, I give it back, and that's the assumption I try to start with about people; if I get disrespect, I give that back. That's why my exchanges with you are polite and civilized, and with eanassir were derisive.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
19,576
113
63
Vancouver Island
. Then they adjust their views accordingly.
Deists/theists state there is a god or are gods and do not require any evidence and are not very accepting of anything that contadicts their views about what they believe.

I'll pass on the Non-Church of Atheism, thanks.

They won't accept any evidence, and are rigid in their thinking, and hang onto information they collected that was stated thousands of years ago, where as the
atheist is flexible, as he knows we are all learning as we go, so he works through
all of scientific findings, as they are proven, and moves on, and keeps searching and proving.

I'll pass on any church, either atheist or religious.

If we all keep talking about the non church, it will seem like an actual 'type' of
church in no time.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
They won't accept any evidence, and are rigid in their thinking, and hang onto information they collected that was stated thousands of years ago, where as the
atheist is flexible,.

Do you guys hear yourselves?

Just because someone reached a different conclusion than you doesn't mean that they didn't give it serious thought and research, or that they reached their conclusion based on religion.

The view that seems to be put forward by you guys... that atheists are smarter, better, more honest... is quite ridiculous, and if you saw it in the mirror on the face of a religious person you'd be appalled by such grand statements.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
26,531
9,728
113
Regina, Saskatchewan
Is it just me, or are the terms "Agnostic" and "Atheist" being confused and
interchanged in this Thread? :-?

Nobody seems to be using the term "Agnostic," but are using it's definition
for the term "Atheist." Aren't these two different critters in their definitions? 8O
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
Is it just me, or are the terms "Agnostic" and "Atheist" being confused and
interchanged in this Thread? :-?

Nobody seems to be using the term "Agnostic," but are using it's definition
for the term "Atheist." Aren't these two different critters in their definitions? 8O

Yep. An atheist is a denier, disbeliever. An agnostic is a doubter. Very similar, but not the same thing.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
63
Denier of what? It seems the religious want atheists to disprove a negative. If a belief is based only on faith how can it be any stronger than a straight disbelief? If an atheist had no other sources to back his opinions except for straight faith and disbelief he'd be no worse for wear in the debate. However most atheists have other sources to base their opinions on, not just on faith.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
not my choice of words, just the simplest dictionary definitions (as it pertains to the existence of a deity).

Damn you atheists are a nit picky bunch for such open minded free thinkers. ;-)
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
56
48
Ontario
But I digress, as I often do. More to the point, if god exists, he must interact with the cosmos to some degree if he's to have any meaning at all, so there must be evidence of that interaction.

Dexter, how would we know that the evidence points towards God? The point is, how would we know if there is an interaction with God, how will we recognize it? Science does not have any parameters laid down to measure the influence of God, if any. If somebody says that something demonstrates the interaction, influence of God, somebody else will inevitably contradict him. This really goes back to the assertion that concept of God is meaningless scientifically.

One interesting result though: string theory does require the existence of a particle with zero mass and spin 2, which quantum theory recognizes as the graviton, the hypothesized particle of the gravitational interaction.

I have read some rather interesting speculation about gravity. Of the four elementary forces, (strong, weak nuclear force etc.), gravity is the weakest, much weaker than others (though all pervading). Scientists have not been able to explain why that should be so.

One fascinating possibility is that gravity is multidimensional force (exists in more than three dimensions) and its projection into three dimensions is weak. While the gravitational force is not weak, what we see if it in three dimensions is weak.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
56
48
Ontario
Yep. An atheist is a denier, disbeliever. An agnostic is a doubter. Very similar, but not the same thing.

Karrie, many Agnostics are really Atheists, but they prefer to call themselves Agnostics (just as some conservatives prefer to call themselves libertarians). The term ‘Atheist’ still has some stigma attached to it (though not as much as before). For instance according to Bush (the former president); one cannot be an Atheist and a patriotic American at the same time. By calling themselves Agnostic, they keep the possibilities open, appear more open minded.

The difference between Agnostic and Atheist is one of degree, not one of kind. Agnostic is not sure whether God exists, he thinks there is some possibility that God may exist. Atheist also thinks that there is some possibility that God may exist (how can one know something like this with 100% certainty?). However, according to an Atheist the possibility of God existing is so remote as to be negligible.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
19,576
113
63
Vancouver Island
Do you guys hear yourselves?

I was replying to other post, which stated the opposite, just wanted to switch
it around, as it can be 'taken' either way.
If you're on one side, you can see it 'one' way, but if you're on the other side
you can see it the 'other' way, just thought that should be pointed out, cause
it can make sense from both sides.
I see it from the atheist's point of view.

.
 
Last edited:

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
I was replying to other post, which stated the opposite, just wanted to switch
it around, as it can be 'taken' either way.
If you're on one side, you can see it 'one' way, but if you're on the other side
you can see it the 'other' way, just thought that should be pointed out, cause
it can make sense from both sides.
I see it from the atheist's point of view.

.

I must have misread, because you seemed to be simply echoing what anna said.
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
9,949
21
38
kelowna bc
Most of the evidence points to individual opinion based on what one thinks but more so what one believes. Most people while searching for evidence will look
for evidence that points to what the personally believe. The whole aspect of
religion is based on the politics of the ancient world and has continued today.
For example I do believe there was a man named Jesus Christ. He was very
much opposed to the Roman Empire. That empire was by today's standards a
fascist regime based on centralized nationalism out of Rome. The Romans
were smart enough to know they couldn't be everywhere at once so they set up
puppet governments to run local areas, much like the big powers do today on
this planet. The battle really started after Christs death. There were many
versions, or sermons but everything got boiled down to 4 books of the Bible as
four versions of personal views of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John and these were
in fact political as much as religious. The messages of Christ were verbal lessons
that were stories based on redemption. The problem with the clergy and many
others is that they claim it is the literal word of God and we don't know how many
versions of the Bible there are or how many times it was re-written to reflect the
person views of those in charge. Remember history has been written by the victors therefore knowing the exact truth of history is not possible either.
So, was Christ a political or religious figure? There in lies the question.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
19,576
113
63
Vancouver Island
I must have misread, because you seemed to be simply echoing what anna said.

not at all, I read that, she stated that atheists adjust their thinking as life changes,and believers have their information and stick to it. Now those are
my words, not hers, but that is how I understood her, let me know if you still
think otherwise, and I will go over it again, maybe I'm missing something.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
19,576
113
63
Vancouver Island
Karrie, many Agnostics are really Atheists, but they prefer to call themselves Agnostics (just as some conservatives prefer to call themselves libertarians). The term ‘Atheist’ still has some stigma attached to it (though not as much as before). For instance according to Bush (the former president); one cannot be an Atheist and a patriotic American at the same time. By calling themselves Agnostic, they keep the possibilities open, appear more open minded.

The difference between Agnostic and Atheist is one of degree, not one of kind. Agnostic is not sure whether God exists, he thinks there is some possibility that God may exist. Atheist also thinks that there is some possibility that God may exist (how can one know something like this with 100% certainty?). However, according to an Atheist the possibility of God existing is so remote as to be negligible.

Well said. I guess many of the agnostics want it both ways, they are ready to
jump either way, depending how the evidence, either comes one or the other.
And, as you say, they are fearful of actually saying they are atheists, someone
might not like them. ahhhh, poor poo poo
The politicians 'all' have to 'say' they are believers, doesn't matter what else they
might be, if they want to be elected, it is just humorous, how they all make
sure they are photographed going to church, wife on their arm, and their
perfectly dressed children, following behind, one must play the game, and be
politically correct, or the other side will 'fry' them.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
19,576
113
63
Vancouver Island
I must have misread, because you seemed to be simply echoing what anna said.
If I was simply echoing what she said, then I would be agreeing with her, so
why the criticizm on my attitude, if you thought I agreed with her, I'm now
so confused, maybe I'll say a prayer. oops!!!!!;-)
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
44,850
193
63
Nakusp, BC
Let us pray. No one, please help us sort out this debate about you/unyou, so that we can get back to being kindred spirits in thy non name, Amen!