The Atheist Holy War

[Dexter Sinister]

What's the theist/deist meaning of life?

Not that I mean to preempt Niflmir here... I think the answer to that generally depends on the details of the particular theist/deist belief system, there isn't a single answer. In a generic sense the notion I get from most theists is that the meaning of this life is preparation for the next one. The practical details differ a great deal among the many brands of theism, hence no single answer, but the central point seems to be that the meaning is assigned directly by the deity personally to each individual. The deity in deism is not so engaged, that one just started things up then stepped back to let things unfold as they should. Even so, I can't see any way to avoid the presumption that the meaning is determined by the deity, as the first cause of it all, assuming there was some purpose to creation in the first place. And if there wasn't, we're back at the atheist conclusion, that we have to make our own meanings.

 

[karrie]

And if there wasn't, we're back at the atheist conclusion, that we have to make our own meanings.

which follows suit with the conclusions reached by many theists. Simply falling into one camp or the other does not necessarily entirely dictate one's outlook, unless one also falls into the camp of 'religious'.

 

[Kreskin]

If atheists had an agenda they'd be knocking on doors. I can't say I've ever seen a door to door atheist.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

which follows suit with the conclusions reached by many theists.

Certainly. All the theists I know whose judgment I respect are like that, and I suspect you'd be among them if I knew you in real life. Actually, based on what I've read of yours here (which is most of it) I'd say you're sitting somewhere between the theist and deist camps, probably closer to the latter, and you're not particularly religious about it.

I should clarify my terminology here. Theism is the belief that there's a personal deity who is actively engaged in human affairs all the time, deism is the belief that there's an impersonal deity who is disengaged from human affairs. Religion is a belief structure that has certain specific characteristics, usually including but not limited to such things as a commitment to theism (Buddhism's a major exception here), the existence of writings claimed to be inspired by a deity, if not actually written by one, a body of teachings and doctrines and dogmas that have to be accepted as received wisdom, a charismatic and influential founding individual who often lends his (and it is almost always male) name to the particular religion, stuff like that. Being religious simply means you've accepted a religion and committed yourself to following its prescriptions for correct behaviour and belief.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

As soon as religion can't explain something they immediately start with the mysteries of the Lord. If God made it mysterious then it can't be explained.

Dumpgrumpy, that is the ‘gap' hypothesis we discussed in this thread earlier. You don’t understand how something works? Blame it on God.

Well I can't say there is or there isn't. Science would likely say no, but they can't prove their position either.

I don’t think science says that. Science does not take any position on God, since God is a meaningless concept as far as science is concerned.

 

[karrie]

If atheists had an agenda they'd be knocking on doors. I can't say I've ever seen a door to door atheist.

So does that make Catholics NOT a religion? Because I've never seen a Catholic banging on doors.

Or if the attempt to change people's minds about how they see the universe is the defining factor, then who fits the bill more... gerry and I, or Dexter and Gilbert?

Once again, for anyone who can't get it.. I am NOT calling atheism a religion. But, to say being atheist excludes people from falling in with organizations that almost directly mirror religion is laughable.

 

[karrie]

Certainly. All the theists I know whose judgment I respect are like that, and I suspect you'd be among them if I knew you in real life. Actually, based on what I've read of yours here (which is most of it) I'd say you're sitting somewhere between the theist and deist camps, probably closer to the latter, and you're not particularly religious about it.

So sitting fairly close to being an opinion you respect? lol.

To be fair and blunt about it, I'm sitting quite squarely in the deist camp, with a respect and appreciation for the religious, ritual side of humanity despite that.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Science does not take any position on God, since God is a meaningless concept as far as science is concerned.

Well, don't bet the farm on that. A proper scientific attitude would say that a cosmos with a god in it ought to be detectably different from one without, if it's not then god's irrelevant and might as well not exist, he doesn't make any difference. It would also say that if god exists, even if he's not running things on a moment by moment basis as some fundamentalists claim, he certainly set things up, defining what science calls the laws of nature and the boundary conditions. That makes the existence of god an empirical claim about the nature of reality, well within the realm of scientific investigation. And in fact science can show quite convincingly that god's existence, given that he has the characteristics usually ascribed to him, fails as an empirical hypothesis, the data do not support the claim.

You're certainly justified in saying that god's a meaningless concept as far as science is concerned, because it doesn't explain anything, it's just a way of avoiding an explanation, the old god of the gaps argument, but some individual scientists, the physicist Victor Stenger in particular, have tackled the existence claim and shown that it fails all empirical tests. As my father (a very religious man) used to say, that doesn't prove god doesn't exist. But it does mean that if he does exist, he's not anything like the way he's usually portrayed.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

So sitting fairly close to being an opinion you respect? lol.

No, not merely fairly close, I *do* respect your opinion. Well... no, that's not quite accurate. More precisely, it's you I respect, not that opinion as such. Respect or disrespect don't really enter into my opinion of that opinion. I think it's incorrect, as I'm sure you know, but you write about it with grace and dignity and you're extraordinarily non-judgmental of dissenting views. That deserves respect.

 

[Kreskin]

So does that make Catholics NOT a religion? Because I've never seen a Catholic banging on doors.

Or if the attempt to change people's minds about how they see the universe is the defining factor, then who fits the bill more... gerry and I, or Dexter and Gilbert?

Once again, for anyone who can't get it.. I am NOT calling atheism a religion. But, to say being atheist excludes people from falling in with organizations that almost directly mirror religion is laughable.

An atheist is open to any belief. Just because they don't blindly pledge their lives to a cause or faith doesn't mean they aren't open-minded. What organizational cause do they follow that mirrors religion? Math?

 

[Ron in Regina]

An atheist is open to any belief. Just because they don't blindly pledge their lives to a cause or faith doesn't mean they aren't open-minded. What organizational cause do they follow that mirrors religion? Math?

Recruitment to their system of beliefs, or non-beliefs in this case? 8O

 

[damngrumpy]

I don't know whether there is a God or not, but there are many people suffering who do believe and I don't condemn them for it. I am what you might call a retired Catholic. I went to church I learned much about the Bible, and other books
of faith for that matter. I was for years a news person in the broadcast industry
and I like proof, but there is no concrete truth either way. There is in fact a
number of people connected to science that are in fact religious.
I do think there is one thing that completes the circle. There are all kinds of real
criminals who believe in God and an after life.

 

[Cliffy]

I find it interesting the civility of the conversation this evening. Many times people react to someone with an opposing view as a personal attack on their beliefs, when it is just someone expressing an opinion. It just seems rare to have this converstaion without name calling and angry flareups. I'm most appreciative.

 

[damngrumpy]

It is always good to have a discussion or even a debate on the opinions and facts as
we collectively see our world. Respect is the key word. There are as many opinions as there are people, and if we take the time to listen it may help to get
closer to whatever the truth is. I do agree, its nice to have a real good discussion

 

[karrie]

Recruitment to their system of beliefs, or non-beliefs in this case? 8O

Precisely.

"You've gotten it wrong... here, read this literature on the subject."

That's not behaviour exclusive to theists.

 

[karrie]

No, not merely fairly close, I *do* respect your opinion. Well... no, that's not quite accurate. More precisely, it's you I respect, not that opinion as such. Respect or disrespect don't really enter into my opinion of that opinion. I think it's incorrect, as I'm sure you know, but you write about it with grace and dignity and you're extraordinarily non-judgmental of dissenting views. That deserves respect.

Thank you Dexter. I hope you've seen that the respect of general opinion, and ability to discuss, goes both ways.

 

[Kreskin]

I don't affiliate myself with an 'ist. I generally go through life completely naive. I couldn't tell you a religious denomination from a currency denomination. If someone knows what holy war or grand conspiracy I am part of, please let me know so I can brush up on it.

 

[karrie]

I don't affiliate myself with an 'ist. I generally go through life completely naive. I couldn't tell you a religious denomination from a currency denomination. If someone knows what holy war or grand conspiracy I am part of, please let me know so I can brush up on it.

last I looked, no one in here has said you are.

 

[talloola]

While I know what you mean talloola, that's individuals saying it. That's individuals being ignorant, and yet when you talk (or the way I read it), it comes off like you're saying 'all the religious'. Which gets my back up.

I've read people on this forum, SirJosephPorter comes directly to mind, who talk the same way of people of faith and belief. They are people he sees as having no worth. People he thinks deserve his consistent disrespect and scorn. Thinking people who view the world as different from you are contemptible is, well, contemptible, no matter which side of the line you stand on.

I'm glad you stand up and say what you are worth talloola. And I hope you don't think all 'the religious' see atheists that way.

I wish everyone well in their lives, believers, non believers, cats, dogs, horses,
whatever. But I will not tolerate the arrogant, who look down their noses at
me and the like, and preach to us,and other believers,( as they usually think
their religion is the 'only' one), who don't believe as they feel pity and want
to pull into their clutches. We are all equal on this earth.

 

[talloola]

If atheists had an agenda they'd be knocking on doors. I can't say I've ever seen a door to door atheist.

they don't even have a non-church.:roll: