The Atheist Holy War

[ironsides]

We have much better explanations now, and religion seems to me to be largely reduced to the God of the Gaps argument, as an explanation for things we haven't figured out yet.

That is the wrong place for religion, Dexter, religion does not belong in the gaps. Traditionally, religion has tried to explain things that it has no business explaining, it has been trying to explain natural phenomena such as electricity, planetary motion, origin of life on earth etc. When science comes up with an explanation for something, that phenomena is taken away from religion, one more gap is closed.

But that is not really the true purpose of religion. Seems to me that through the ages religion had abrogated the proper role of science, and that is where trouble begins. But at its root, religion is about Theology, about after life, about Salvation. Science has nothing to say about these subjects, these subjects are meaningless to science.

As long as religion restricts it self to Salvation, soul, afterlife, redemption etc., (the ‘why’ question) there is no conflict between religion and science.

"The Archdiocese of Miami is the latest of many Catholic dioceses around the country that have cut back in recent years. In one of the biggest cutbacks, the Diocese of Cleveland announced in March that it would close 52 of its 224 churches next year."


This dosen't sound like religion is gaining strength around here.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

And how does that pertain to my post, ironsides? You have quoted my post and presumably posted in response to that. I don’t see the connection.

 

[ironsides]

And how does that pertain to my post, ironsides? You have quoted my post and presumably posted in response to that. I don’t see the connection.

We always discuss how strong or not religion is in the U.S. I just posted a article that shows churches closing down. Religion is doing something wrong.

 

[Niflmir]

I'll point out too that being spiritual doesn't make one religious, and being atheist doesn't make one impervious to acting like the religious. To say 'atheist is'.... is ridiculous, since atheists are human, and comprised of a million and one different personalities, just like the religious are.

Labels never fit any of the individuals they are attached too, in any case. Which is weird, because we seem to love to go around labeling things. Maybe that is what is weird, actually.

Anyways, what atheism is to an atheist is quite a personal matter, ranging from "religion = off" to "religion = enemy".

The current trend of labeling atheism as a religion is a humorous semantic insult used by theists in order to get some atheist's knickers in a knot. It's funny because it often works. It is even more funny because it implies, amongst other things, that I should be able to register the Conservative Church--oops, party--of Canada as my religion.

The so-called holy war belongs more to the title of secularism, and once upon a time plenty of Christians belonged to the movement, back when the deists and theists really hated each other and needed protection from one another. After all, it was Christians who made the freedom of religion clauses in our various constitutions, not atheists. Nowadays, in the "Western" world, the various sects are more interested in keeping Christian symbols plastered amongst our public buildings and so unite against other religions like Islam, leaving secularism by the wayside.

 

[L Gilbert]

Any organized group of people who send out pamphlets to prisoners, hang symbols of their belief, tattoo themselves in symbols of their belief, and encourage people to view their literature, constitutes more than an 'off' channel.

Google 'the brights'.

Funny, I've seen dozens of people with crosses dangling from them, tattooed on various parts of their bodies, etc. But I have never seen one atheist with "atheist" tattooed on them, dangling from their neck, etc. I haven't seen any pamphlets from atheists that weren't requested by someone. Atheists don't go door-to-door reading scriptures to people, as far as I know (nothing like the JWs, anyway. I've never seen an atheist nutbar standing in a park or town square screeching about the end of days or even preaching their beliefs (I think they stick to forums for that mostly). They don't put on uniforms and take up instruments and walk around playing atheist tunes like the SallyAnn does with Christian tunes. There are no atheist churches, temples, synagogues, etc. as far as I know.

 

[Spade]

If, Les, you were to start up the First Reformed Church of the Nonbeliever, would you need a treasurer?
Curious,
Brother Spade

 

[L Gilbert]

Gilbert's assertion was that atheism is to religion as off is to a tv channel, or bald is to a hairstyle. First of all, he never said what atheism is to spirituality... he said to religion. And compared to religion, no, it is not the same as 'off' when one belongs to groups that are almost identical to religions. Now... to spirituality, that's another issue. Google the brights (as Gilbert encourages people to do). It says it followers ascribe to a 'naturalistic world view'. One could say that is a spiritual guideline for membership.

Those quotes are what I think as funny, so that is the main reason why I posted them.
Religion is a broad term:

• Pronunciation: \ri-ˈli-jən\
• Function: noun
• Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back — more at rely
• Date: 13th century

1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
— re·li·gion·less adjective

- Merriam-Webster
In that light, ANY belief can be a religion.

Having faith that there is no such things as gods is not the same as having faith in them and praying to them.
Aws for the forum the Brights maintain, anyone can go there to become a member. It is not exclusive of anyone and there are people posting there who are Christians. How can one be a member of Chritianity without being a Christian?

As to why they would organize... I know why humans organize. I know why atheists would organize. I'm honest about why religions form, why people organize into them. What I find funny is the self delusion of some who think they're 'above' such things.

"Above" accepting something as a "truth" where there is no evidence for this "truth"? Yup, I guess that'd be me; I need evidence. Call it a weakness. lol
Anyway a system requiring evidence for the existence of something before it agrees that there are such things to believe in is not the same as a system that requires no evidence to support the view.
Someone says,"There's a bomb in that box". While the believer heads for the hills at a run, the atheist x-rays it, scans it for electrical circuitry, gets a sniffer dog to check it for explosives, etc.

 

[L Gilbert]

If, Les, you were to start up the First Reformed Church of the Nonbeliever, would you need a treasurer?
Curious,
Brother Spade

lol What would you treasure? I'm quite libertarian so I wouldn't ask for money from anyone.

 

[talloola]

As an atheist, I don't believe in all the 'stuff' that believers believe in, so that is an
exclusion from those groups, not a new faith called 'anything.'

 

[SirJosephPorter]

If, Les, you were to start up the First Reformed Church of the Nonbeliever, would you need a treasurer?
Curious,
Brother Spade

I wanted to be the treasurer, Spade perhaps we can become co-treasurers (and split the take between us).

 

[Cliffy]

I want to be the PR guy. I convinced most people in Nakusp that they were crazy to get rid of the stigma around mental health issues, now just about everybody supports mental illness. I could do the same for atheism. I could convince the religious that they don't need god to reach enlightenment (a lightening of the wallet).

The stock exchange is rising, the banks are showing record profits - SEND MONEY!

 

[Spade]

I want to be the PR guy. I convinced most people in Nakusp that they were crazy to get rid of the stigma around mental health issues, now just about everybody supports mental illness. I could do the same for atheism. I could convince the religious that they don't need god to reach enlightenment (a lightening of the wallet).

The stock exchange is rising, the banks are showing record profits - SEND MONEY!

We'll sell the public compassion. Hey, I hope the Dalai Lama won't mind. And it just might do some good!
YouTube - Dalai Lama: Inner Peace, Happiness, God and Money

 

[Dexter Sinister]

As an atheist, I don't believe in all the 'stuff' that believers believe in, so that is an exclusion from those groups, not a new faith called 'anything.'

Exactly. Atheism has no content, it's just an absence of a particular belief.

 

[Cliffy]

We'll sell the public compassion. Hey, I hope the Dalai Lama won't mind. And it just might do some good!

We could sell them hope. It worked for Obama. Could we also put Hope on the commodities market? That could double prophets.

 

[karrie]

Funny, I've seen dozens of people with crosses dangling from them, tattooed on various parts of their bodies, etc. But I have never seen one atheist with "atheist" tattooed on them

The brights had a whole section devoted to the tattoos and symbology that people had gotten, made, etc., the bumper stickers they put on their cars.... you encourage people to seek out 'the brights'.... I'm sorry, you're not that different. And incase anyone was confused about me targeting 'atheists' as a whole... no I was taking a direct shot at one evangelical atheist who claims to be nothing like religion at all, while pushing this particular organization.

And no... you can show me a couple ways it's not directly like religion... I'll grant you that. But it's not directly opposite either, as much as you might wish it were.

 

[karrie]

Exactly. Atheism has no content, it's just an absence of a particular belief.

For some, sure... but google the brights as Les encourages people to do. Google the organized atheism. Then tell me honestly if Les's statement is correct, that 'atheism is a religion like off is a tv channel'. All I've said is that if I follow Les's calling to seek 'enlightenment', I see something that looks like way more than 'off'.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I think you're mistaking simple atheism for something much broader. I *have* googled the Brights, and Les's statement is correct. Atheism isn't the only thing the Brights are about, they're simply promoting a naturalistic world view based on evidence and reason and critical thinking, free of supernaturalism and mysticism. Given that world view, religious belief is not sustainable. If the name didn't offend me so, I'd have joined them.

 

[karrie]

I think you're mistaking simple atheism for something much broader. I *have* googled the Brights, and Les's statement is correct. Atheism isn't the only thing the Brights are about, they're simply promoting a naturalistic world view based on evidence and reason and critical thinking, free of supernaturalism and mysticism. Given that world view, religious belief is not sustainable. If the name didn't offend me so, I'd have joined them.

I feel you lot are purposely misreading me.

deism and theism are not religions either. But, the people who hold those views, can, and do, often join religions. Atheism is not a religion, but, it doesn't stop its followers from joining groups that mirror religion a great deal.

To say that atheism is a religion like off is a tv channel, is flawed, plain and simple, unless you want to include deism and theism in that assessment (neither one of those is a religion in and of itself either). And I've never said that 'the brights' is a religion... I've said it sure looks like more than the absence of one though.

Oh... and for spade and cliffy... if you'd like to donate to the cause...
The Brights' Net - Supporting the Brights

it's okay, because it's not a religion. ;-)

 

[Niflmir]

Deism and theism define specific religious beliefs however. While atheism is a pretty non-specific non-belief.

Certainly some people may identify with not believing in god, particularly people who may have been raised in a religious household, but not all atheists are so. In a similar way, a person could identify with their lack of belief in unicorns. But I have not met many aunicornists, although I believe there to be many, me included.

But certainly, calling someone a theist is nowhere's close to the same as calling them a catholic.

 

[karrie]

Deism and theism define specific religious beliefs however. While atheism is a pretty non-specific non-belief.

Ah, but we're not talking about religious belief. We're talking about religion. Language is such a fun thing isn't it? The two are not interchangeable. Les brought up religion, not religious belief. And if you look at the dictionary definition (dictionary.com), this is part of the definition... " a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, " it carries on to say 'especially' as it applies to religious belief, but, it does not say exclusively as it applies to religious belief.

As for the rest of your post Niflmir... not all religious are alike, not all atheists are alike. That's a bit of a no brainer. But you don't sign off your posts about atheism being a non-specific belief, with an invitation for me to join your atheist organization with its set mandate of how you all view the world. :lol: