Bush: "We do not torture"

[earth_as_one]

Japanese soldiers convicted by the US of waterboarding Americans during WW II

After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.

Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime - washingtonpost.com

Just remember, what goes around comes around. If Americans can waterboard their prisoners, then your adversaries can also waterboard their American prisoners.

Do you support waterboarding captured Americans?

 

[L Gilbert]

I don't see much difference between Bush's regime and any other terrorist organisation, except that Bush & company weren't very efficient at it. Instead of torturing anyone who looks at them sideways they should have been going after the suspects' families and frinds like the more efficient terrorists.
But in general, 2 wrongs don't make a right and if you didn't pi$$ off the terrorists enough to attack you in the first place, you'd likely not have captured their attention.

 

[earth_as_one]

I never bought a single justification for the Iraq war back in March 2003. The war was completely unnecessary. The war victims include many people from many countries including Iraq and the US.

Back during the 2002-2003 pre-Iraq war hype, I posted on forums like this trying to make people question what we were being told about Iraq. If more people took the time to learn the facts rather than accept hype without question, maybe this disaster could have been avoided. But we can't go back in time.

I hope people have learned from the Iraq war experience. We should be more skeptical of our news and political leadership. In the case of the Iraq war, the misinformation was pretty blatant and obvious. Its still pervasive regarding this war and other pro-west nations. Most Americans remain unaware of the scale of Iraq war death and destruction or that every justification for this war has been proven false. They remain unaware that starting an unprovoked war is a war crime or that pretty much every crime committed by Hussein was probably committed by the Bush adminstration.

Regarding America's institutionalized torture and murder policies, the Obama adminstration has moved against it. That's great news, but they haven't gone far enough. Not even close. This adminstration seems unwilling or unable to holding America's war criminals accountable for their actions.

 

[earth_as_one]

I don't see much difference between Bush's regime and any other terrorist organisation, except that Bush & company weren't very efficient at it. Instead of torturing anyone who looks at them sideways they should have been going after the suspects' families and frinds like the more efficient terrorists.
But in general, 2 wrongs don't make a right and if you didn't pi$$ off the terrorists enough to attack you in the first place, you'd likely not have captured their attention.

LG, you are exceptional... too bad common sense like yours isn't more common.

 

[talloola]

How can one pi$$ off a terrorist, they are just common thugs to begin with, so
does one have to respect and obey them so that you don't pi$$ them off?

Don't get the idea from my above statement that I agree with anything bush did,
because I loath him,
but I also have no respect for sand covered terrorists who live in caves and hide
behind innocent people, and pretend they have rights.
It was terrorists who attacked trade centers, and killed 3 thousand innocent
people, no way to re act because someone pi$$ed you off.

 

[L Gilbert]

How can one pi$$ off a terrorist,

Intrude upon what they think is their territory. In the case of the Taliban, Al Quaida, etc. It would be Islamic countries. I'd have thought that would be pretty evident.

they are just common thugs to begin with,

Common thugs don't organize.

so
does one have to respect and obey them so that you don't pi$$ them off?

Nope.

Don't get the idea from my above statement that I agree with anything bush did,
because I loath him,
but I also have no respect for sand covered terrorists who live in caves and hide
behind innocent people, and pretend they have rights.
It was terrorists who attacked trade centers, and killed 3 thousand innocent
people, no way to re act because someone pi$$ed you off.

I agree.

 

[earth_as_one]

How can one pi$$ off a terrorist, they are just common thugs to begin with, so
does one have to respect and obey them so that you don't pi$$ them off?

Don't get the idea from my above statement that I agree with anything bush did,
because I loath him,
but I also have no respect for sand covered terrorists who live in caves and hide
behind innocent people, and pretend they have rights.
It was terrorists who attacked trade centers, and killed 3 thousand innocent
people, no way to re act because someone pi$$ed you off.

I agree with LG.

Also I'm surprised that you are unaware that no one from Iraq has ever been linked to the events of 9/11. OBL and his cadre were behind that event, not Hussein or the Iraqi government. The only thing linking the rape, torture and murder of Iraqis by American soldiers is thoroughly discredited propaganda. I'm surprised so many people still have this misperception.

If you want to know why 9/11 happened, I suggest you read OBL's 1997 interview:
Transcript of Osama Bin Ladin interview by Peter Arnett

As Ghandi said, "an eye for an eye makes the entire world blind". I certainly understand why many Muslims and Arabs are pissed with the West in general and the US in particular, but I don't agree with killing innocent people in response to killing innocent people. In fact, in order for the senseless killing to stop, one side has to stop responding to violence with violence. Which is why I'm a firm supporter of non-violence and non-violent resistance.

As far as I'm aware, the Iraq war had nothing to do with 9/11. Its just another example of how the West gives itself carte blanche to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity, yet hypocritically complains when what goes around finally comes around.

I'm sure we haven't seen the final repercussions of the Iraq war.

 

[talloola]

I have watched interviews with osama bin laden, I have no respect for him at all.
He has had no status with any country, has never been a head of state.
Countries should deal with countries, not thugs.

Thugs do organize, how about the mafia.

What terrorists think is their country means nothing, it is what their heads of
state think that should be dealt with.
terrorists are just criminals and should be treated as such.
Saudi arabia is obl's home country, and they threw him out.
He ran to aphghanistan because he had no country.
He is just a thug, with big ideas, no different than any criminal who has committed horrible crimes over the years.

 

[L Gilbert]

I have watched interviews with osama bin laden, I have no respect for him at all.
He has had no status with any country, has never been a head of state.
Countries should deal with countries, not thugs.

The world should be perfect, but it isn't.

Thugs do organize, how about the mafia.

Semantics. I use "thug" as a term for a petty criminal.

What terrorists think is their country means nothing, it is what their heads of
state think that should be dealt with.
terrorists are just criminals and should be treated as such.
Saudi arabia is obl's home country, and they threw him out.
He ran to aphghanistan because he had no country.
He is just a thug, with big ideas, no different than any criminal who has committed horrible crimes over the years.

So heads of states can't be terrorists? Saddam Hussein was a head of state. Polpot was a head of State, as were Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler, etc. and as far as I can tell, al of the above were terrorists.

 

[earth_as_one]

I have watched interviews with osama bin laden, I have no respect for him at all.
He has had no status with any country, has never been a head of state.
Countries should deal with countries, not thugs.

Thugs do organize, how about the mafia.

What terrorists think is their country means nothing, it is what their heads of
state think that should be dealt with.
terrorists are just criminals and should be treated as such.
Saudi arabia is obl's home country, and they threw him out.
He ran to aphghanistan because he had no country.
He is just a thug, with big ideas, no different than any criminal who has committed horrible crimes over the years.

Granted.

Now what does your point have to do with the US led invasion of Iraq or how American soldiers ended up in Iraq torturing, raping and murdering Iraqis? Perhaps you can connect the dots for me. How does 9/11 justify what the Americans did in Iraq?

Or better yet try explaining why Arabs and Muslims shouldn't be pissed that Americans have no intention of ever holding anyone accountable for starting an unprovoked war in Iraq? I think the Iraq war convinced many Arabs and Muslims that OBL was correct about the west.

 

[Unforgiven]

Granted.

Now what does your point have to do with the US led invasion of Iraq or how American soldiers ended up in Iraq torturing, raping and murdering Iraqis? Perhaps you can connect the dots for me. How does 9/11 justify what the Americans did in Iraq?

Or better yet try explaining why Arabs and Muslims shouldn't be pissed that Americans have no intention of ever holding anyone accountable for starting an unprovoked war in Iraq? I think the Iraq war convinced many Arabs and Muslims that OBL was correct about the west.

Oh that's easy, You see there was a dictator in Iraq that thought it great fun to throw rocks at the vicious attack dogs chained up behind the fence of a well to do American. One day the screwed up Uncle from Texas was taking care of the property while the owner and his lovely family were off on a vacation. Sadly, the Uncle doesn't play very well with others and when the dictator in Iraq caled him names, the Uncle let out a little chuckle that only a Texan can, and let those dogs loose.

"Oh sh!t!" said the Iraqi dictator. "Oh No!" said the neighbors. "Git 'em boy" said the Texan.

There is no moral to the story, vicious dogs eventually bite someone, Texans are assholes and a big mouth will get you a punch in the yap on the school ground and the international stage. That's life for ya.

 

[earth_as_one]

Unforgiven:

I take it that you agree that the Iraq war had little to do with 9/11 and that fear and anger over that terrorist act was manipulated into support for an unprovoked war.

You think this was personal between Bush and Hussein. I disagree. I think this was about wealth, power, oil and greed.

Also it seems you have an impression that only Saddam Hussein was killed during this war. I'm not shedding any tears for this brutal dictator, but you have missed the point. Take a good look at the photos of rape, torture and murder in the previous page. I never saw Saddam Hussein in any of them.

Raping, torturing and murdering prisoners and innocent civilians is a war crime. Starting an unprovoked war which has killed 100,000 people (at a minimum) and most likely about 1,000,000 people is a crime against humanity.

Do you believe that war criminals should be held accountable for their actions?

 

[Unforgiven]

Unforgiven:

I take it that you agree that the Iraq war had little to do with 9/11 and that fear and anger over that terrorist act was manipulated into support for an unprovoked war.

That's about right so far. The war was provoked though but much like a loud mouth, should have been ignored and another solution found to deal with the problem.

You think this was personal between Bush and Hussein. I disagree. I think this was about wealth, power, oil and greed.

Not in the same way you would normally use "personal".
Bush was more of a puppet than anything else. And I think more than anything Iraq was and still is about those four things. Bush was the Lee Harvey Oswald and Iraq was American innocence and the people of Iraq and the soldiers of the American and British Army were the Kennedys. How do you like that for an analogy? :lol:

Also it seems you have an impression that only Saddam Hussein was killed during this war. I'm not shedding any tears for this brutal dictator, but you have missed the point. Take a good look at the photos of rape, torture and murder in the previous page. I never saw Saddam Hussein in any of them.

Oh he did his share and his kids too.
I'm not missing the point, though I may look as though I am at times. War is brutal that's why they call war the last resort. No more law, no police, innocent people get killed until no one wants to fight any more. If anything is wrong it's the sanitisation of war. Trying to protect civilians, being careful not to offend.
If should be all out.

Canada is at war and I can eat pizza tonight, do a little surfing and download a movie to watch while I have a nice drink before bed time. If anything I should be in Afghanistan allong with every other able bodied person killing Taliban and building infrastructure in the cities so the people there can have a country worth fighting for.

Raping, torturing and murdering prisoners and innocent civilians is a war crime. Starting an unprovoked war which has killed 100,000 people (at a minimum) and most likely about 1,000,000 people is a crime against humanity.

War crimes are a joke. That might sound rough to you and reading it probably just made you angry. Fact is that the US has a war machine and sometimes, like when someone like the Bush administration gets a hold of that war machine, bad things happen. But don't think you're going to arrest Bush or Cheney and judge them in the world court. You will have to be a little more practicle than that. Some of those who committed the crimes may be called upon the carpet for it, but don't get your self worked up over it. There are plenty of people yet to murder, rape and torture and you can count on it coming to pass long before this one is resolved to anyone's satisfaction.

Do you believe that war criminals should be held accountable for their actions?

Sure. But you know the difference between what should happen and what does happen.

 

[CDNBear]

eao, we rarely see eye to eye, but when we do, we really do...

I take it that you agree that the Iraq war had little to do with 9/11 and that fear and anger over that terrorist act was manipulated into support for an unprovoked war.

A monumental, I agree.

You think this was personal between Bush and Hussein. I disagree. I think this was about wealth, power, oil and greed.

I couldn't agree more.

Also it seems you have an impression that only Saddam Hussein was killed during this war. I'm not shedding any tears for this brutal dictator, but you have missed the point. Take a good look at the photos of rape, torture and murder in the previous page. I never saw Saddam Hussein in any of them.

Nope, you saw innocent women and children. Dying so US oil can have a strangle hold on the market and dictate how the EU's oil is distributed.

Raping, torturing and murdering prisoners and innocent civilians is a war crime. Starting an unprovoked war which has killed 100,000 people (at a minimum) and most likely about 1,000,000 people is a crime against humanity.

Almost genocidal.

Do you believe that war criminals should be held accountable for their actions?

Yep and Bush fits the bill. As well as Bremner, Rumsfeld and several others, including the CEO's of mercenary companies and other companies like Halliburton.

Yes eao, I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[talloola]

Granted.

Now what does your point have to do with the US led invasion of Iraq or how American soldiers ended up in Iraq torturing, raping and murdering Iraqis? Perhaps you can connect the dots for me. How does 9/11 justify what the Americans did in Iraq?

Or better yet try explaining why Arabs and Muslims shouldn't be pissed that Americans have no intention of ever holding anyone accountable for starting an unprovoked war in Iraq? I think the Iraq war convinced many Arabs and Muslims that OBL was correct about the west.

911 had nothing to do with Iraq, and doesn't justify at all what americans did
there.
A provoked war, along with Britain, don't forget, they were not alone, and
a few others, austrailia, and some drag alongs.
If bush was brought to justice, blair also would have to, and , is it brown, in
austrailia, can't remember, blair lost his leadership because of his actions in
iraq, his people were very down on him for that.
Yes, Bush and his thugs are responsible for that war, I agree.
Not sure what the americans can do to hold them accountable, it would take
many years, seems to me that, with a new president, who seems to have a
much more intelligent approach to getting along in the world, the most
productive thing to do is move forward and make life better, instead of getting
bogged down with punishing, as I don't know how they would accomplish that
anyway.
Sure Hussein was a terrible leader, but not a terrorist, he stayed at home and
treated his people very shabbily, as do many other dictators in the world.
And, the american people should hang their heads, for voting bush into office,
the second time, it was amazing to me, that they could do such a thing,
definitely had the wool pulled over their eyes, took them too long to figure
that out, way too long.

 

[ironsides]

Waterboarding is not harmless. When its committed against Americans, your government considers it to be torture.

Regarding the rest of your post, I'm not sure I understand your point.

Are you saying that since your adversaries are barbaric, you support American soldiers committing rape, torture and murder against their adversaries, their families including children and innocent civilians????

Did you ever consider what these soldiers will consider normal behavior when they come home?

War is Hell, there are no rules that can make it civilized, or by your reasoning nice. Go in get it over quick do the least amout of damage and go home.

 

[ironsides]

P.S. For the record I never tortured anyone, nor had it done to anyone. This Bush bashing has to stop. Everytime some Looney (Eric Holder) comes up with a anti Bush thing doesn't mean "O'Boy we can bash him some more, The nut case needs to find something to do. Get over it, Bush and his gang are gone and all that will happen is more money will be wasted. Poor Arabs, sleep deprivation and water boarding. There already have been people punished for those insulting photo's at Abu Ghraib prison. It is over, and stop saying you don't hate Americans, there the only ones you are trying to harm now.

 

[Unforgiven]

P.S. For the record I never tortured anyone, nor had it done to anyone. This Bush bashing has to stop. Every time some Looney (Eric Holder) comes up with a anti Bush thing doesn't mean "O'Boy we can bash him some more, The nut case needs to find something to do. Get over it, Bush and his gang are gone and all that will happen is more money will be wasted. Poor Arabs, sleep deprivation and water boarding. There already have been people punished for those insulting photo's at Abu Ghraib prison. It is over, and stop saying you don't hate Americans, there the only ones you are trying to harm now.

Atonement is cathartic and it has to begin somewhere. Someone has to say there has been grievous harm done, others have to agree, the facts laid out and those responsible brought to justice before people can move on. I doubt Bushco will ever step up to the plate and like Hitler and other miscreants of history, Iraq will go down as a black mark on America just as the Nazi regime harmed the reputation of the German people.

Time heals all wounds but Americans need to step up and take the heat for Iraq as the world needs to vent and get over it. What is slowing down that process is the constant assertion by Americans like yourself that it's no big deal.

It is a big deal and that can be demonstrated by the very small world Americans now live in. There are fewer and fewer places Americans can go, identifying themselves as American without getting attacked, or taken hostage.

The one thing that should come from the Invasion of Iraq is that America is vulnerable to usurpers stealing control of the country and using the economic and military clout in the worst possible way that both lines their pockets and destroys
people and their culture and peace to do it.

America has a lot of growing up to do yet and though the growing pains are rather visible at the moment, they are part of that process. I think the rest of the world would be a lot more forgiving if America offered up a sincere apology for the atrocities committed in her name and set about working to become a peaceful nation once again by making and keeping a promise only to use that magnificent military machine only in defense of an attack on Americans and America.

 

[Cliffy]

Bang on Unforgiven. I find it interesting the the American apologists are unable to apologize for their actions. Both Eagle and Ironsides cannot bring themselves to admit there was any wrong doing worthy of an apology. Sooner or later the bully has to fess up or a bigger bully will put them in their place.

 

[ironsides]

The United States is guilty of nothing and owes no one or any nation a apology.