A fifth of European Union will be Muslim by 2050

[ironsides]

They were in the processing of getting out. The bombings made the Spanish people want to get out ASAP also. I do wonder why the increase in crime in France as opposed to Spain. Friend of mine sold his home in France and moved to Florida because of the increased crime by immigrant Arabs..

 

[Cliffy]

They were in the processing of getting out. The bombings made the Spanish people want to get out ASAP also. I do wonder why the increase in crime in France as opposed to Spain. Friend of mine sold his home in France and moved to Florida because of the increased crime by immigrant Arabs..

Easy answer: turn the middle east to glass. No more immigrant problem.

Hard answer: toughen up immigration policies and citizenship requirements.

 

[Extrafire]

Math is just a set of numbers, Extrafire. By itself, math means nothing. The assumptions made when doing the calculations are crucial, and they probably are unrealistic. For instance, what birth rate did he use? Evidence indicates that second and third generation immigrants have significantly lower birthrate than the first generation. Did he take that into account? He probably didn’t.

He? Who's he? I managed to do those calculations myself. The numbers are available for anyone to find.

As for second or third generation birthrates, that's true for immigrants who assimilate into their new cultures. Many of the Muslims are deliberately NOT assimilating, and are holding on to their old homeland cultures. If they were assimilating the way European immigrants to the US and Canada did a century ago, then I would agree that islamification is much less likely. But they aren't. In addition to birth rate, you're ignoring immigration. European birthrate is in a state of demographic collapse, yet the populations of European countries is not falling. That's because they're being filled with massive immigration, mainly from muslim countries.

 

[Cliffy]

He? Who's he? I managed to do those calculations myself. The numbers are available for anyone to find.

As for second or third generation birthrates, that's true for immigrants who assimilate into their new cultures. Many of the Muslims are deliberately NOT assimilating, and are holding on to their old homeland cultures. If they were assimilating the way European immigrants to the US and Canada did a century ago, then I would agree that islamification is much less likely. But they aren't. In addition to birth rate, you're ignoring immigration. European birthrate is in a state of demographic collapse, yet the populations of European countries is not falling. That's because they're being filled with massive immigration, mainly from muslim countries.

Turn Europe to glass?

 

[Spade]

Dearest Black Leaf!
A fifth Muslim, you say?
You would prefer a fifth of Scotch?

By the by, are you saying you fear that xenophobia is caused by the influx of foreigners?

 

[Machjo]

Dearest Black Leaf!
A fifth Muslim, you say?
You would prefer a fifth of Scotch?

By the by, are you saying you fear that xenophobia is caused by the influx of foreigners?

Bleckleaf didn't say anything. He just cut and paste an article true to his Blackleafian form.

By the way, does he ever respond to threads?

 

[Spade]

Bleckleaf didn't say anything. He just cut and paste an article true to his Blackleafian form.

By the way, does he ever respond to threads?

I think the black Leaf feels he's on a civilizing mission. Perhaps he'll respond when we colonists reach level 1.

 

[ironsides]

"World's first Muslim superheroes, the 99, are headed for British television screens"

Here comes Jabbar to save the Europe.

World's first Muslim superheroes, the 99, are headed for British television screens - Telegraph

 

[Downhome_Woman]

You ma have forgotten that Moorish Spain granted freedom of religion to all its subjects. In fact, in the Dark Ages, many Jews and unorthodox Christians escaped to Spain for protection, and some of the wealthy class sent their children to Spain for education. Islam has had a golden age of its own once. Just as the Chrstian Faith has had one renaissance already, can you be sure Islam won't have one of its own in the future?

there is a tendancy to idealize Moorish Spain and while yes, it was better than Christian Europe or Spain after the Reconquista, it wasn't perfect. the benficance of moorish Spain depended soley upon the attitudes of the rulers at the time.Just like christian europe. Get a good ruiler and eveything was sweetness and light. get a grumpy one and it was back to Djimmitude. As far as the Christian Rennaisance - when did that happen? sure, for a while Luther embrased the Jews, but that was only when he was trying to get them to embrace Protestantism - he figured that the only reason they weren't Catholic was because the Catholics were rather brutal towards the Jews. He couldn't quite wrap his head around the fact that the Jews didn't want to be Protestant any more than they wanted to be Catholic (or Muslim, for that matter - Mohammed tried the same thing and got royally irked when the Jews didn't see his way of thinking) - they believed what they believed and when all these religious leaders found that they couldn't convert them by any other way than force, they just got as mean as each other.

golden Age of Islam? somewhat, Christian Rennaisance? somewhat. there was acceptance, no douibt, but it was more on a personal level - between neighbours and friends - but on the larger scale it was always conditional.While i'd like to believe that someday they'll all 'see the light' and make nice, but that's like believing that those 30 minute tv shows actually represent real life. it's a nice fantasy, but it's still just a fantasy.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

He? Who's he? I managed to do those calculations myself. The numbers are available for anyone to find.

As for second or third generation birthrates, that's true for immigrants who assimilate into their new cultures. Many of the Muslims are deliberately NOT assimilating, and are holding on to their old homeland cultures. If they were assimilating the way European immigrants to the US and Canada did a century ago, then I would agree that islamification is much less likely. But they aren't. In addition to birth rate, you're ignoring immigration. European birthrate is in a state of demographic collapse, yet the populations of European countries is not falling. That's because they're being filled with massive immigration, mainly from muslim countries.

Doesn’t matter who did the calculations, Extrafire, your assumptions are questionable, to say the least.

You are assuming that Muslim birthrate will continue same as before, without any basis for it. As to Muslims assimilating, some do and some don’t. And what evidence do you have to claim that those who don’t assimilate have the same birthrate as first generation immigrants?

Besides, how do you know that European birthrate will stay at the level that is it now? We are talking of several decades into future, and any assumption you make is going to be questionable.

I think this is the hobby horse of the far right, they like to scare people about stories of Islam, they like to demonize Muslims. While no doubt some Muslims do meet that stereotype, many don’t.

The Muslims we know (admittedly doctors, scientists and other intellectuals) have two or three children at most, their birthrate isn’t really any different from that of White Canadians. Second and third generation usually has a lower birthrate than first generation. Even if they don’t assimilate, there is no evidence to suggest that non assimilation keeps their birthrate high.

 

[Downhome_Woman]

Machjo - Yuck - 'True' torah Jews? Just what makes them 'true? unlike Christian and Muslim scripture, Torah is constantly being debated and rethought. for the heredim or thse nut cases in the terretories to claim that they are the 'only' true Jews is ridiculous. they are amongst the ones who insisted that the Falasha Jews from Ethiopia who had suffered enormously because they were Jews in a Christian land, had to go through a ritual circumcision! they looked down upon the Jews who escaped from Iraq and Iran becaue they didn't consider them 'jewish' enough. Just what makes them 'true' torah Jews? they're parasites - living off the donations of Jews abroad - they hate the State of Israel but for the most (excluding the Satmars and a few others) use all the benefits and ALL of them live under the physical protection (they don't have to protect or fight for their country, they just have to reap the benefits of those who do) - including the Western Wall. Before the 67 war when it was liberated, Jews in Jerusalem were limited to a pitiful amount to worship at - their holiest site! 'True' torah Jews? Can't you find another reference?

 

[Extrafire]

Doesn’t matter who did the calculations, Extrafire, your assumptions are questionable, to say the least.

You are assuming that Muslim birthrate will continue same as before, without any basis for it. As to Muslims assimilating, some do and some don’t. And what evidence do you have to claim that those who don’t assimilate have the same birthrate as first generation immigrants?

Besides, how do you know that European birthrate will stay at the level that is it now? We are talking of several decades into future, and any assumption you make is going to be questionable.

I think this is the hobby horse of the far right, they like to scare people about stories of Islam, they like to demonize Muslims. While no doubt some Muslims do meet that stereotype, many don’t.

The Muslims we know (admittedly doctors, scientists and other intellectuals) have two or three children at most, their birthrate isn’t really any different from that of White Canadians. Second and third generation usually has a lower birthrate than first generation. Even if they don’t assimilate, there is no evidence to suggest that non assimilation keeps their birthrate high.

You are making some assumptions yourself. The biggest of which is that they will assimilate as European immigrants to N. America did in centuries past. What is this assumption based on? I would suggest that the most accurate assumption would be to extrapolate current trends. As you suggest, the intellectuals, professionals etc. will assimilate. But they're a minority of the immigrant population. In many parts of Europe, they tend to congregate in self imposed ghettos, they don't spread throughout the general population. Holland is 10% Muslim, yet Rotterdam is 40% muslim. In France they often gather in muslim neighbourhoods where they basically rule themselves - police are attacked if they venture into them. There are about 900 of these no-go zones last I heard. These people will not assimilate, and they will retain their customs which include larger families than ours.

You haven't mentioned immigration as a factor. Keep in mind that European populations are not dropping, even though their birthrate is half of replacement. The deficit is being made up of immigrants. That's a huge number of people, increasing every year, of first generation people who pop out 6 kids per mom.

As for European birthrate turning around, get serious! If anything, it will get lower. They're too involve with their selfcentered lifestyles. They don't have any intention of going back to the way things used to be.

 

[Spade]

Nonsensical ethnocentric xenophobia.

 

[Extrafire]

Nonsensical ethnocentric xenophobia.

Denial of reality.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Nonsensical ethnocentric xenophobia.

Indeed, Spade. That is the hobby horse of the far right. They paint everybody who does not subscribe to their Fundamentalist worldview as a dangerous extremist, be he an Atheist, a Muslim, a Hindu or even a Christian who does not agree with their extreme interpretation of the Bible.

I don’t know if Extrafire belongs to this category or he simply is parroting the far right nonsense he reads on the net. But the far right certainly likes to scare people with stories of the horrible deeds being committed by Atheists, Feminists, liberals, Muslims etc., just about anybody who disagrees with them.

30 years ago the world was going to be taken over by Communists; today it is the Fundamentalist Muslims.

 

[ironsides]

The Muslim immigrants are out breeding the so called Europeans as was mentioned and will become the dominant population in Europe. Muslims frown on inter religious marriage so Europe will not in the next few hundred years become anything like the multiracial society Brazil has (which has the only real multiracial society in the Americas. The Europe we now know will be gone, smart educated people breeding themselves out of existence because of concern over the environment and over population. Guess that is one way to do it.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

The Muslim immigrants are out breeding the so called Europeans as was mentioned and will become the dominant population in Europe. Muslims frown on inter religious marriage so Europe will not in the next few hundred years become anything like the multiracial society Brazil has (which has the only real multiracial society in the Americas. The Europe we now know will be gone, smart educated people breeding themselves out of existence because of concern over the environment and over population. Guess that is one way to do it.

Again, it is pure conjecture, ironsides. It is very difficult tot say what Europe will be like in the next 50 or 100 years. In fact, let us go back 100 years, before the World War 1. Would anybody have been able to predict the current position of Europe? Highly prosperous, highly educated, liberal, progressive, multicultural etc? 100 years ago Europe was a very conservative place, anti-Semitism was running rampant. Empire building was in fashion, many European countries had colonies in Asia and Africa. Europe also was a poor continent.

There is no way anybody could have predicted the present day Europe 100 years ago, and I don’t think anybody can predict Europe 50 or 100 years from today. My hope would be that it continues pretty much as it is today, with perhaps increased non white population.

 

[Machjo]

The Muslim immigrants are out breeding the so called Europeans as was mentioned and will become the dominant population in Europe. Muslims frown on inter religious marriage so Europe will not in the next few hundred years become anything like the multiracial society Brazil has (which has the only real multiracial society in the Americas. The Europe we now know will be gone, smart educated people breeding themselves out of existence because of concern over the environment and over population. Guess that is one way to do it.

Actually, Muslims themselves are highly multi-racial, from Bosnian Muslims (no, not immigrants, but Muslims living in Eastern Europe for generations stemming from the Ottoman Empire) to Indonesian and Singaporean Muslims. So it certainly has nothing to do with race when we consider that Muslims are far more interracial than Europeans overall.

Also, you're making the assumption that people do not leave Islam and that Eruopeans do not convert to Islam. Just because a Muslim family has many children, there is no guarantee that all of those children will be Muslim as adults.

We should remember too that some Muslims do accept marriage with Christians and Jews at least as 'Ahl-al-Kitab' (People of the Book).

 

[Machjo]

Machjo - Yuck - 'True' torah Jews? Just what makes them 'true? unlike Christian and Muslim scripture, Torah is constantly being debated and rethought. for the heredim or thse nut cases in the terretories to claim that they are the 'only' true Jews is ridiculous. they are amongst the ones who insisted that the Falasha Jews from Ethiopia who had suffered enormously because they were Jews in a Christian land, had to go through a ritual circumcision! they looked down upon the Jews who escaped from Iraq and Iran becaue they didn't consider them 'jewish' enough. Just what makes them 'true' torah Jews? they're parasites - living off the donations of Jews abroad - they hate the State of Israel but for the most (excluding the Satmars and a few others) use all the benefits and ALL of them live under the physical protection (they don't have to protect or fight for their country, they just have to reap the benefits of those who do) - including the Western Wall. Before the 67 war when it was liberated, Jews in Jerusalem were limited to a pitiful amount to worship at - their holiest site! 'True' torah Jews? Can't you find another reference?

I never said I agreed with what they stood for. I'm just saying that Zionism and Judaism are two separate things. Not all Jews are Zionist just as not all Zionists are Jews (in fact, most Zionists in the US are most likely evangelical Christians, not Jews). Just pointing out that anti-Zionism does not necessarily equate with anti-semitism. Two separate and unrelated ideas altogether.

 

[ironsides]

Again, it is pure conjecture, ironsides. It is very difficult tot say what Europe will be like in the next 50 or 100 years. In fact, let us go back 100 years, before the World War 1. Would anybody have been able to predict the current position of Europe? Highly prosperous, highly educated, liberal, progressive, multicultural etc? 100 years ago Europe was a very conservative place, anti-Semitism was running rampant. Empire building was in fashion, many European countries had colonies in Asia and Africa. Europe also was a poor continent.

There is no way anybody could have predicted the present day Europe 100 years ago, and I don’t think anybody can predict Europe 50 or 100 years from today. My hope would be that it continues pretty much as it is today, with perhaps increased non white population.

It cannot continue as it is today, they doomed themselves when people started having fewer children. You getting your wish though, the non white population is expanding in leaps and bounds as is petty crime. But I won't make a correlation there.