The Atheist Holy War

CDNBear

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Holy Saturn, Batman! It's Saturday and the gods are angry!
PS
I have it on good authority that the turtle that bears the Earth on his back is getting tired. Time to take an ocean cruise!
Spade do you know much about Native religious or spiritual beliefs?

I'll clarify that with, how it is perceived by the Six Nations. As it is what I am most familiar with.

There are many, what would seem to be interesting correlations between Christianity and our ancient beliefs. But given that our form of documentation was oral. There is the real possibility that it was manipulated over time to resemble Christianity. Making the Churches infestation more the easier.
 

s_lone

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Feb 16, 2005
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Thank you all for your insights... Would've weighed in before but the weather is so beautiful here in Quebec... finally... summer had been crappy so far...

Because of the fact that religion is so widespread and that it played such a significant role in the evolution of humanity as a whole, it is tempting to consider religion as a perfectly natural stage of collective psychological evolution. Whatever evils and atrocities were done under its name, religion nonetheless creates a cohesive framework under which groups tend to organize themselves.

Of course, the problem arises when groups clash with one another. I think one aspect of religion is very much related to the ''tribal'' mindset which lies in every single one of us, whether we like it or not. By ''tribal'' I mean the need to identify to a larger group, to find satisfaction and security in belonging to a social ''clan'' or institution. In other words, to feel you are part of a gang.

It is in this sense that religion is a social framework. But as we all know, the results of ''tribes'' clashing with each other over religious issues usually aren't pretty. The tribes must find what they have in common in order to live together and as they do, more ''inclusive'' religions arise, which create larger and larger social frameworks.

In what is often called the Axial Age (about 800BC to 200 BC), most tribal religions of the world tended to constellate around a few major religions that were the building ground of all current major religions. But of course, the ''tribal'' clashes just got bigger and bigger as major religions clashed with other major religions.

Eventually, I believe something more inclusive than religion as we commonly understand it needs to come into play in order for more efficient and solid social frameworks to arise. And this is where science comes into the picture. Or perhaps I should say, this is where philosophy and analytical thought comes into the picture. Because in the end, science really is an offspring of philosophy.

Logical and analytical thought is, I think, a higher form of human psychological manifestation than religion. To a certain extent, it is more inclusive than anything else. We don't all agree on why our planet exists in the first place. But we pretty much all agree that it is round because that is what analytical thought gives us as a conclusion. Analytical thought is something that all humans have in common, at least in potentiality.

I could go on and on, but what I am trying to say is that science is ''superior'' to religion in the same way an adult is superior to a child. This analogy is very important in my opinion concerning the OP... because adults don't wage war to children.

All societies are at different stages of evolution and this must be understood and respected. You can't expect a society mainly driven by religion to suddenly accept logic and analytical thought as its new ''dogma''. This is like asking a 7 year old to act like an adult. But when a child loses control, we teach that child a lesson and put it back in its place. This is how I view religion. As long as it doesn't over-react and have a tantrum, it needs to be fully tolerated, accepted and even embraced as it expresses itself in its shiniest and most beautiful way (religion can be expressed positively.)

Some may think it is condescending to compare religion to a child and science to an adult. To this I would answer that some children are much more wise and mature than adults. Analytical thought can be used for shallow purposes as much as any religion...
 

s_lone

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He's also the coolest separatist I've ever met, lol. Even though I've been known to troll him once in awhile.

lol... I think I'm only cool because I'm so incredibly moderate when it comes to the issue of Quebec separation... Honestly, I don't label myself as a separatist. But I won't get into that and hijack my own thread... :smile:
 
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Cliffy

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s_lone,

Thank you for a most intelligent and articulate assessment of the human condition I have heard just about anywhere.
 

SirJosephPorter

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That bothered me much more than the silent moment, and still does.

Ironsides, I think the Pledge is of very recent origin, it originated in the 50s. In those days America was deathly afraid of Communism (same as they are afraid of Islam today), I think the Pledge was invented as a counterweight to Communists. Plus it may have been a way of placating Joseph McCarthy, I don’t know (he wielded considerable amount of power in those days).

But unlike Bill of Rights or the Constitution, Pledge is of very recent origin.
 

SirJosephPorter

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I don't think it's contributed much of value at all, and it's done a lot of harm, from the moment the first European priest set about proselytizing to the people who were here first.

In those days proselytizing at gun point was the norm wherever the Europeans went. They did the same thing in South America, India etc. While India has had some Christian population since shortly after the birth of Christ (there is evidence to suggest that Jesus spent some time in India), many were converted (forcibly) when the Christian missionaries came with the British.

They were able to convert Hindus to Christianity, many times by misrepresenting the Gospel, and almost always with the force of the British conquerors backing them up.

But at least in India they did not kill the local population wholesale, like they did in North and South America (or more accurately, perhaps they were not able to do so).
 

CDNBear

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Ironsides, I think the Pledge is of very recent origin, it originated in the 50s. In those days America was deathly afraid of Communism (same as they are afraid of Islam today), I think the Pledge was invented as a counterweight to Communists. Plus it may have been a way of placating Joseph McCarthy, I don’t know (he wielded considerable amount of power in those days).

But unlike Bill of Rights or the Constitution, Pledge is of very recent origin.
I know how smart you think you are, which is why I will take such great pleasure in proving you wrong, yet again...

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy. Originally published in the Youth's Companion, in a flag sales promotion to Public Schools. It was adopted by the Public School system in October of the same year.

It was adopted by the US Congress in 1942, as the official National Pledge.

I'm sure you still have me on iggy...:roll:...so I'm sure conceding to this is out of the question. Only the mature have said ability.;-)
 
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Spade

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There are many, what would seem to be interesting correlations between Christianity and our ancient beliefs. But given that our form of documentation was oral. There is the real possibility that it was manipulated over time to resemble Christianity. Making the Churches infestation more the easier.

Xianity is not a unified system of beliefs. I am sure you could compare the art of drinking tea to some manifestation of Xianity. Besides, the Xianity the Jesuits taught was, by design, a blend; that is how they operated.
 

CDNBear

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Xianity is not a unified system of beliefs. I am sure you could compare the art of drinking tea to some manifestation of Xianity. Besides, the Xianity the Jesuits taught was, by design, a blend; that is how they operated.
:roll:
 

ironsides

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Ironsides, I think the Pledge is of very recent origin, it originated in the 50s. In those days America was deathly afraid of Communism (same as they are afraid of Islam today), I think the Pledge was invented as a counterweight to Communists. Plus it may have been a way of placating Joseph McCarthy, I don’t know (he wielded considerable amount of power in those days).

But unlike Bill of Rights or the Constitution, Pledge is of very recent origin.


Pledge was way before McCarthy, they had us doing it in grade school as far back as I can remember 1944-1945. Think I was in 3rd grade.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Xianity is not a unified system of beliefs. I am sure you could compare the art of drinking tea to some manifestation of Xianity. Besides, the Xianity the Jesuits taught was, by design, a blend; that is how they operated.

That is true of almost every religion, Spade. Indeed that has been my complaint about religion all along, Bible, Koran etc. are very amorphous books, the often say contradictory things at the same time.

Most people don’t go to Koran or Bible to find out what God is saying about any particular issue. They have preconceived, preformed ideas about every issue, and they go to Bible to simply obtain confirmation, justification of their ideas. Thus, if somebody supports gay rights, he will ignore the Leviticus exhortation for death penalty to gays, or ignore the part which says that gays don’t go to heaven. He will concentrate on things like charity, compassion, love etc. (which are also abundantly described and prescribed in the Bible).

On the other hand, if a gay hater, gay basher reads the Bible, he will ignore strictures like ‘love thy neighbour’ or the golden rule, he will only read that Leviticus mandates death penalty for gays, and that is good enough for him.

Both claim to be Christians, both claim to follow the Bible, yet their behavior is totally opposite. When Mother Teresa, Jimmy carter, Bishop Tutu on the one hand and Pat Robertson, Savonarola, Torquemada etc. on the other hand, they are all considered to be Christians, that tells me that Christianity is nonsense, meaningless.
 

ironsides

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SirJosephPorter: Lets start with the easy reply first.
"In Canada a majority is opposed to any restrictions on abortion (Canada has no law regarding abortion, abortion is permitted under all circumstances)" and there you cause conflict with not having a death penalty. Cut and dry,no room for opinion when I looked both up.

Yes, lets take the Death penalty issue and abortion first.
Yes, you do allow a death penalty, at least what I consider as well as most civilized people that is murder by abortion to a healthy fetus after 20 or more weeks. No you don't believe in capitol punishment for adults, but it is ok for innocent baby's who are aborted screaming in pain, waving its little legs around if you haven't torn them off during the proceedure first. There is no doubt that a 20+ week fetus has a very good chance to survive. I am pretty sure the definition of life would come into play here. These are living breathing baby's you are destroying. Cannot use the argument that it only happens to for a small percentage of abortions, even one is a state sanctioned murder that you say that majority of Canada agrees to. Wonder how many would have been willing to in favor of it if they knew all the facts before hand. Would they have asked for limits when a women could have and abortion? I am amazed that this part of the abortion issue did not come up when we last discussed it.

"Nurses were only allowed to comfort the suffering infant, but this did not even include feedings." The rejected baby's fate was sealed when it survived a so-called "genetic termination," an abortion performed only five weeks before the mother's due date.
"Dilation and Extraction (D&X) is another late-term method. The Doctor dismembers the fetal part that has been brought out of the vagina and removes it. The rest of the fetus remains in the uterus while dismemberment occurs. There is "wide disagreement within the medical community, and little data on whether the procedure (D&X) is safer than others or even whether it should be performed" (Grimes, David 1998 pg. 3)."
Late Term Abortion –Medical Perspective



Until March, women seeking late abortions at Foothills had been cared for in an area separated from new mothers and women who aborted before the 24th week of pregnancy. And according to Catherine, late abortions need to be kept separate, partly in order to avoid forcing postpartum nurses from having to do work they oppose morally. "After 23 weeks," she says, "it's pretty dicey because we're getting into viability. Babies can survive." Late term abortions are done here by inserting Cytotec into the woman's vagina; the drug then ripens the cervix and causes powerful uterine contractions which eventually lead to premature birth. Nurses handle the procedure, giving the drug every four to six hours. But Cytotec can take four or five days to cause contractions powerful enough to expel the baby. "Meanwhile, the abortion is tying up a birthing room that's meant for couples who are having a wanted baby," Catherine says. "It's also hoped that the baby dies during labour before coming out. But not all babies do."
http://www.euthanasia.com/cannurse.html

 

SirJosephPorter

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Ironsides, the first website you gave pertains to Vermont, and has nothing whatever to do with Canada. I searched the page for Canada and it doesn’t even mention Canada.

As to euthanasia.com, that is a prolife, extreme right website and as such it is hardly credible. It gives a prolife perspective, nothing more. I wouldn’t give any credence to it.
 

L Gilbert

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Well, perhaps as an aboriginal person you take a different view of Turtle Island than I do, but when I said "here" I meant the territory now called Canada. Yes, but proper analytical and critical thinking can demonstrate that it's right, or at least provide estimates of the probability that it's right. Religion can't, and by its nature probably wouldn't if it could, because then the faith it demands wouldn't mean anything. Not really, I've hijacked lots of threads briefly ;-), but I like s_lone, he's a serious thinker who posed a serious question that deserves serious consideration, and I don't want to hijack *this* thread of his.
Anna's Dad says Turtle Island is North America. Maybe he's wrong. I have no idea, but I've heard people say they think all land mass on Earth is Turtle Island. I tend to lean towards Bill's idea that North Am is Turtle Island. Can't see aboriginals of Oz calling their patch of real estate Turtle Island and Canuckville is only about half of NorthAm and not an island.
Quite right about about the religious versions of rightness and the versions produced by analytical thought. Repetitious dogma is not necessarily right.
 

L Gilbert

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Religions have been at war with each other since the dawn of religions. Nobody seemed to take exception to it so why is anybody getting their panties in a knot about science jumping into the fray? At least they bring something tangible to the argument.
Simply because what science has and what it can uncover shakes the foundations of the faithful.
For instance, when scientists discovered some of the building blocks that comprise living cells, I can imagine a few of the faithful having a snit about their idea of creation being imposed upon. But as someone pointed out to me after I mentioned it, "Who sent the meteorite to Earth?". My answer will always be, "No-one, but someTHING did; likely something that is part of our universe". But the religious have that loophole (can't prove a negative) so they use it.
 

L Gilbert

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Atheist Holy War is rather silly, an oxymoron at best. Atheists don't believe in holy, and although they may invent instruments of war, I don't think any would wage war on anybody, particularly religion. The religious, however, have shown throughout history, their willingness to kill to prove themselves right. So if anyone is declaring a Holy War, it would be religion.
Yeah, it is kind of oxymoronic. My favorite expressions concerning that are, "Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color" and "Atheism is a religion like "off' is a tv channel".