A fifth of European Union will be Muslim by 2050

[SirJosephPorter]

He says Islam oppresses women. I disagree. I'd say certain interpretations of Islam oppress women.

Here I disagree with you, Machjo. The guy in the video evidently belongs to extreme, loony right, but in this instance he is right. Islam does oppress women. According to Koran and Sharia, one man is equal to two women.

So Islam does oppress women. To be fair so does Christianity. However, most Christians have sense enough not to take the verses which mandate oppression of women seriously. Thus, only the most rabid of religious right would claim that husband must be the boss in the marriage and little wifey must obey his each and every command.

In the Bible, man – woman relationship is master – servant relationship. But most Christians ignore that aspect of Christianity and do not practice it. In Islam, man – woman relationship is more akin to that between man and his pet. The problems is that many Muslims take that seriously, and that results in oppression of women.

Most religions oppress women. Reasonable, intelligent persons simply ignore that aspect of the religion, fanatics don’t.

 

[Cliffy]

After listening to quite a few of Pat's videos, I would be hard pressed to say he is right wing anything. But I believe he is an ex catholic priest who has seen the light and rejects religion in any shape or form as down right dangerous and with that assessment, I am in full agreement.

 

[Andem]

And here is a view from an Englishman:
YouTube - Apologists for evil

Oh I like this guy: "Lefty, Liberal, Multicultural Appeasement Monkeys" made me laugh.

To the topic: I see how muslims mix with the indigenous population and it's not good. Just the other night I had to take an alternate route home by foot because the quickest way went through a bad Turkish neighbourhood, a place where 2 Turks can become a whole group of 20 within minutes.. many of them show outright hatred towards Germans and other Europeans day-in and day-out. Infact I've seen Americans attacked at a popular tourist area. There is nothing compatible with our cultures and each new generation gets more and more violent.

Why do we need or want a 20%-Muslim EU? I can tell you I will also use my vote on every level to discourage that!

The EU will collapse if it becomes multiculti; name one empire or country in the history of the world that has survived multiculturalism? France? UK? Germany? Rome? Greece? Egypt? US? Canada?

Is the 21st century special in some regard?

Great video anyways.

 

[petros]

Machjo, Islam does not specifically say that women must wear hijab. It does however; say that women must dress modestly (a requirement that is not applicable to men). Most Islamic countries interpret that to mean that women must be fully covered, but they do not agree what that means.

Some mandate hijab, where woman is fully veiled. In Iran they mandate the chador, where a woman is completely covered except for her eyes. Only a small part of the woman, her eyes remain uncovered.

Hijab is more cultural than religious.

In Iran some wear it only half way over the hair leaving the front styled and dye in typical women's styles of the day. As soon as they are in the house it comes off.

I guess women who live where it is hot and dry in the west haven't caught on to why grandma wore a headcovering in the summertime.

 

[petros]

Ha! Here I was about to prove to you that the Qur'an does in fact require women to wear hijab. As it turns out, though, I'm partly wrong: there is in fact some theological debate on the issue among Muslim scholars:

Hijab - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well, whdda ya know, ya learn something new everyday.

Yup. Now to get in a kerfuffle and get on the case of those Mormofascists forcing their women and men to wear magic gonch.

 

[Machjo]

He says Islam oppresses women. I disagree. I'd say certain interpretations of Islam oppress women.

Here I disagree with you, Machjo. The guy in the video evidently belongs to extreme, loony right, but in this instance he is right. Islam does oppress women. According to Koran and Sharia, one man is equal to two women.

So Islam does oppress women. To be fair so does Christianity. However, most Christians have sense enough not to take the verses which mandate oppression of women seriously. Thus, only the most rabid of religious right would claim that husband must be the boss in the marriage and little wifey must obey his each and every command.

In the Bible, man – woman relationship is master – servant relationship. But most Christians ignore that aspect of Christianity and do not practice it. In Islam, man – woman relationship is more akin to that between man and his pet. The problems is that many Muslims take that seriously, and that results in oppression of women.

Most religions oppress women. Reasonable, intelligent persons simply ignore that aspect of the religion, fanatics don’t.

Actually, your claim about women in Islam is not so accurate. From what I remember of the verses, one states that men are superior to women, but doesn't provide much context to clarify whether it is meant as a command or simply a statement of fact of the time without pronouncing judgement on it.

As for one man equalling two wmen, again, it's not universally applicable. If I remember correctly, to judge a case, two male witnesses, or alternatively one male and two female witnesses, are needed. Sure it is unequal jurisprudence, but a farcry from 'oppression'.

The Qur'an does in fact guarantee women cerain rights too. So I fully agree that islam does not guarantee women equality, but it does not necessarily mandate inequality except in certain specific cases of jurisprudence. Again, I agree it's not equal, and this is in fact one reason I don't beleive i Islam. But to say it oppresses women is false. You have yet to prove that.

 

[Machjo]

After listening to quite a few of Pat's videos, I would be hard pressed to say he is right wing anything. But I believe he is an ex catholic priest who has seen the light and rejects religion in any shape or form as down right dangerous and with that assessment, I am in full agreement.

I do agree that judging from that video at least, I would certaily not say he's extreme right. I'm not saying he isn't, but if so, it's not so obvious from this video. He's undoubtedly decidedly Islamophobic, but otherwise quite possibly liberal.

 

[ironsides]

I asked the Question: "Islam man is superior to women" and these are the first 4 items that came up. These do not seem to be radical Islamic views, but basic doctrine.

Women and Islam

Women And Islam - Christians of Egypt - AMCoptic.com

Islamic Laws for Women

Islamic Laws for Women

A Woman's Place

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/022-man-in-charge-of-woman.htm
​

BEING A MUSLIM'S WIFE
http://www.islam-in-focus.com/MuslimWife.htm​

 

[SirJosephPorter]

As for one man equalling two wmen, again, it's not universally applicable. If I remember correctly, to judge a case, two male witnesses, or alternatively one male and two female witnesses, are needed. Sure it is unequal jurisprudence, but a farcry from 'oppression'.

The Qur'an does in fact guarantee women cerain rights too. So I fully agree that islam does not guarantee women equality, but it does not necessarily mandate inequality except in certain specific cases of jurisprudence. Again, I agree it's not equal, and this is in fact one reason I don't beleive i Islam. But to say it oppresses women is false. You have yet to prove that.

Machjo, one man is also considered equal to two women when it comes to inheritance. A son inherits twice as much as a daughter.

When Sharia and Koran specifically say that one man equals two women in at least two places, that is good enough for me. As far as I am concerned, Islam regards one man equal to two women.

To me, unequal jurisprudence is the same as oppression.

But to say it oppresses women is false. You have yet to prove that.

I don’t know what you mean by oppression. To me, when Islam says that one man equals two women, that is tantamount to oppression. Islam emphasizes inferiority of women again and again (e.g. in the context of marriage).

Islam also says that it is permissible for a man to beat his wife. On this most Islamic scholars agree, the only disagreements is how hard he may beat his wife, and what implements he may use (cane, strap etc.).

Now, I don’t know what the technical definition of ‘oppression’ is, and I don’t care. To me, all this indicates that Islam supports oppression of women, and supports it wholeheartedly, enthusiastically.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I asked the Question: "Islam man is superior to women" and these are the first 4 items that came up. These do not seem to be radical Islamic views, but basic doctrine.

Women and Islam

Women And Islam - Christians of Egypt - AMCoptic.com

Islamic Laws for Women

Islamic Laws for Women

A Woman's Place

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/022-man-in-charge-of-woman.htm
​

BEING A MUSLIM'S WIFE
http://www.islam-in-focus.com/MuslimWife.htm​

Indeed, ironsides, thanks for digging that up (I imagine it wasn’t difficult to do, Islam’s opinion that women are little more than animals is easy enough to find).

Anyway, let me summaries the four laws here for the benefit of Machjo.

1. MEN ARE SUPERIOR TO WOMEN

2. MEN ARE COMMANDED TO BEAT THEIR DISOBEDIENT WIVES

3. MAN INHERITS MORE THAN A FEMALE (twice as much, to be precise).

4. MEN CAN HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH WIVES AND CONCUBINES

Indeed, there are many such laws which establish the superiority of men over women, too numerous to mention. E.g. Sharia gives the man the right of talaq, whereby a man can say to his wife three times ‘I divorce you’ and he is divorced. Wife, of course does not have that privilege. I am not even sure if Sharia permits a woman to get a divorce.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Indeed, I understand that is how prostitution operates in Islamic countries. When a man goes to a prostitute, there is an Imam or Mullah right there (he may even be the pimp). He marries them, and they have sex. When the man is finished, he says 'talaq' or ‘I divorce you’ three times, he is divorced, and he is on his way.

A prostitute may get married and divorced 20 or 30 times in a day.

 

[Machjo]

Machjo, one man is also considered equal to two women when it comes to inheritance. A son inherits twice as much as a daughter.

yes, I forgot about that part. unequal, yes. Archaic? In my opinion, yes. But oppression? That's still a strong term for it. I think it could prbably be dealt with through simple legislation on the part of the Canadian government.

When Sharia and Koran specifically say that one man equals two women in at least two places, that is good enough for me. As far as I am concerned, Islam regards one man equal to two women.

Yes, in two places.

To me, unequal jurisprudence is the same as oppression.

But to say it oppresses women is false. You have yet to prove that.

I don’t know what you mean by oppression. To me, when Islam says that one man equals two women, that is tantamount to oppression. Islam emphasizes inferiority of women again and again (e.g. in the context of marriage).

Fair enough.

Islam also says that it is permissible for a man to beat his wife. On this most Islamic scholars agree, the only disagreements is how hard he may beat his wife, and what implements he may use (cane, strap etc.).

I agree that Canadian law ought to place certain restraints on that, but that doesn't guarantee that a majority Muslim Canada would automatically resort to this.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I agree that Canadian law ought to place certain restraints on that, but that doesn't guarantee that a majority Muslim Canada would automatically resort to this.

That is not what we are discussing, Machjo. It is quite possible that Canadian Muslims do not subscribe to the more extreme aspects of Sharia. What we are discussing is whether Islam oppresses women, and I think it does (most religions do).

 

[Machjo]

Well, I can agree that Islam is indeed an outdated religion. I still don't think demonizing Muslims is the solution though.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Well, I can agree that Islam is indeed an outdated religion. I still don't think demonizing Muslims is the solution though.

Indeed it is not, one must be careful not to characterize a whole group of people. Just as there are Christians that run the gamut from left to right, it is the same with Muslims. In fact, I remember during the gay marriage debate in Canada, one Islamic organization actually came out in support of gay marriage.

So I agree that not all Muslims think alike. However, when it comes to Islam, one can only go by what Koran and Sharia say. And it does not paint a pretty picture.

 

[Machjo]

Yes, I do agree that any religion must be judged by its sacred texts as the primary criterion. And on that basis, indeed islam is an outdated religion, and ever since it's fallen into that category, Muslims have had to face a crisis of Faith as they are forced to re-analyse their religion within the modern context. What worked so well in the past is now outdated. That must certainly through many into confusion, or to question their faith, or have to try to re-interpret it, etc. This must certainly not be a comfortable position for them, and may explain the reactionary wing within it, reacting to this confusion.

Certainly we ought not to accept the outdated parts of Islam, but need to respect Muslims none-the-less.

 

[AnnaG]

Yes, I do agree that any religion must be judged by its sacred texts as the primary criterion. And on that basis, indeed islam is an outdated religion, and ever since it's fallen into that category, Muslims have had to face a crisis of Faith as they are forced to re-analyse their religion within the modern context. What worked so well in the past is now outdated. That must certainly through many into confusion, or to question their faith, or have to try to re-interpret it, etc. This must certainly not be a comfortable position for them, and may explain the reactionary wing within it, reacting to this confusion.

Certainly we ought not to accept the outdated parts of Islam, but need to respect Muslims none-the-less.

lol Islam is no more outdated than Christianity. It just needs its proponents to catch up with reality, just like any other religion. lol
Christianity grew a little, Islam can, too. And it is. It's being forced to grow up a bit in Iran because young people want to be included in things the rest of the world is offering.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

lol Islam is no more outdated than Christianity. It just needs its proponents to catch up with reality, just like any other religion. lol
Christianity grew a little, Islam can, too. And it is. It's being forced to grow up a bit in Iran because young people want to be included in things the rest of the world is offering.

Anna, Islam needs Reformation, similar to what Christianity had with Martin Luther.

 

[Machjo]

lol Islam is no more outdated than Christianity.

Agreed.

 

[Machjo]

I should point out though that though at least some of the social teachings of these Faiths are outdated, the spiritual teachings are still pertinent, and that could be harnessed for the moral development of their societies none-the-less.