Is a fetus a Human being?

[Kreskin]

Then post your own links. I am tired of being one of the only 3 or 4 people that do post scientific stuff.

The first link on a google search - at what stage is a birth viable - goes to a med journal article describing births at 20-23 weeks as "non-viable delivery". As I said I don't think there is a recorded delivery of anyone surviving at 20 weeks. I'm not going to post links when the resources are everywhere.

 

[lone wolf]

My guess would be 6 months.

In gestational weeks, how far beyond that 22 week for viability? Remember, this was in 1936 under bush conditions.

 

[AnnaG]

Hi Anna, much like you in a non-religious site I have been looking up the terms at as my memory from having my kids is a bit fuzzy now.. :smile:

Human fertilization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So's mine. lol A lot of the terminology from the links I have provided are familiar but I'd need to drag my Med. dictionary out or something to define the technical terms. General terms like viability I can grasp easily enough, though.

 

[Kreskin]

Perhaps to you. But I can't help that.
From the first link:

"With current standards, intensive care is generally considered justifiable at

25 weeks, compassionate care at

22 weeks, and an individual approach at 23 to 24 weeks, consistent with the parents' wishes and the infant's clinical conditions at birth." And keep in mind that was two years ago. A lot more research has passed under the bridge since then.

Compassionate care is allowing it to die with dignity if it is even still alive. And that is to 22 weeks. You said it was viable at 20. Most wouldn't survive at 24, 25 or 26. Third Trimester measured by development is generally 26 weeks+, and even then the odds aren't very good.

 

[AnnaG]

In gestational weeks, how far beyond that 22 week for viability? Remember, this was in 1936 under bush conditions.

Oh, heckifino, Mr.Wolf. I was trying to be funny. The usually thing is 9 months. I just subtracted the 3 months prematurity you said and arrived at 6 months. lol I don't know much about the Dion quints.

 

[MHz]

The first link on a google search - at what stage is a birth viable - goes to a med journal article describing births at 20-23 weeks as "non-viable delivery". As I said I don't think there is a recorded delivery of anyone surviving at 20 weeks. I'm not going to post links when the resources are everywhere.

Some societies don't even give a new-born a name until they are a week old, just because they may perish.
Is isn't a matter of being able to survive outside the womb, it is a matter of would there be a new child if things were left alone and allowed to proceed at a normal pace. That process starts at conception.
A broken leg that does not get medical attention could just as easily end a life. It most likely meant death centuries ago.

 

[AnnaG]

compassionate care is allowing it to die with dignity if it is even still alive. And that is to 22 weeks. You said it was viable at 20. Most wouldn't survive at 24, 25 or 26. Third trimester measured by development is generally 26 weeks+, and even then the odds aren't very good.

i said in that post, the info was from 2 years ago and a lot of research has passed under the bridge since then. If you want more current research results try looking back through the stuff i already had posted.
And besides, since when does "most" mean "all"?

 

[Kreskin]

i said in that post, the info was from 2 years ago and a lot of research has passed under the bridge since then. If you want more current research results try looking back through the stuff i already had posted.
And besides, since when does "most" mean "all"?

When does viable mean none? Has there been one recorded delivery of a baby surviving at 20 weeks?

 

[AnnaG]

When does viable mean none? Has there been one recorded delivery of a baby surviving at 20 weeks?

I'm not the one saying none. You are remember? I am saying they've proven viability at 20 weeks. Perhaps it isn't many that survive at 20 weeks but they wouldn't say they were viable if they hadn't found at least one that survived. Read my previous links. If I had noticed it saying that viability was at 30 weeks, I would have said 30 weeks. If it said 900 weeks I would have been saying 900 weeks.

 

[Kreskin]

Actually they waffle between 12 days and 14 days. I think it depends upon the rate of development.

It was a trick statement. Actually in the first two weeks of "traditionally" measured pregnancy there isn't even fertilization. Traditional pregnancy is measured from the start of the last menstrual period. So I would hope there aren't too many scientists supporting a it as a human being when it still hasn't been conceived.

 

[AnnaG]

aaawww, I missed it?
Well, I can chuckle now anywqay. lol

 

[Kreskin]

I'm not the one saying none. You are remember? I am saying they've proven viability at 20 weeks. Perhaps it isn't many that survive at 20 weeks but they wouldn't say they were viable if they hadn't found at least one that survived. Read my previous links. If I had noticed it saying that viability was at 30 weeks, I would have said 30 weeks. If it said 900 weeks I would have been saying 900 weeks.

Not many at this point is none. You and Joey were debating about when pregnancy was viable. I tend to agree that he was closer to reality.

 

[gerryh]

I'm bumping this in case it had gotten lost

Extreme Preemies - The Boston Globe
And then there was Amillia Sonja Taylor, a Florida girl born after just 21 weeks and six days of gestation, weighing less than 10 ounces and measuring 9 1/2 inches long out of the womb. When she was discharged from a Miami hospital in February 2007, four months after her birth
As recently as the 1970s, most babies born before 28 weeks died.
Gerry says:
thanks babe
Jenn says:
no prob
there are lots of doccumented facts on this too
everyone that has a preemie now blogs it for others to follow
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070220/baby_premature_070219/20070220?hub=CTVNewsAt11
pictures of the first one
"When I started my training in 1987, a baby who survived at 25 weeks gestation was quite amazing," says Andrew R. Barden, MD, medical director of the NICU at St. Luke's Hospital, in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. Although extremely premature birth still significantly increases a child's chances of dying before hospital discharge, "now our expectation is that a baby born at 25 weeks will live," he says.

Since Jenn refuses to post in here anymore I asked her to send me some info that pertains to this as she has kept up with all the ongoing research into neonatal care.

 

[Francis2004]

It was a trick statement. Actually in the first two weeks of "traditionally" measured pregnancy there isn't even fertilization. Traditional pregnancy is measured from the start of the last menstrual period. So I would hope there aren't too many scientists supporting a it as a human being when it still hasn't been conceived.

Hummm Conception that's why I kept asking when do we consider the Sperm to have mutated with the egg.. :?:

The term conception commonly refers to fertilisation, which many people contend is "the point at which human life begins" -- as the successful fusion of gametes form a new organism. 'Conception' is usually defined as implantation and is thus a subject of semantic arguments about the beginning of pregnancy, within the abortion debate. Gastrulation, which occurs around 16 days after fertilisation, is the point in development when the implanted blastocyst develops three germ layers, the endoderm, the ectoderm and the mesoderm. It is at this point that the genetic code of the father becomes fully involved in the development of the embryo. Until this point in development, twinning is possible. Additionally, interspecies hybrids survive only until gastrulation, and have no chance of development afterward. However this stance is not entirely accepted as some human developmental biology literature refers to the "conceptus" and such medical literature refers to the "products of conception" as the post-implantation embryo and its surrounding membranes. The term "conception" is not usually used in scientific literature because of its variable definition and connotation.

Fertilisation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To which point Anna says 12 to 14 days and she is close..

 

[AnnaG]

Not many at this point is none. You and Joey were debating about when pregnancy was viable. I tend to agree that he was closer to reality.

That's not my problem.
His point was that human beings weren't viable until 81 weeks (9 months). I'd say I am closer.

 

[Kreskin]

And viability has been shown to occur at around 500 grams and 20 weeks. And THAT fact negates Porter's nonsensical opinion that it only gains viability as a human after the third trimester.

I read it as if it was meant to be after starting the third trimester.

Still, it's all subjective. We celebrate birthdays and claim to be x-years old, not x-years plus 9 months.

 

[AnnaG]

lol That's quite true, but then they are called BIRTH days, yes? As in anniversaries of BIRTHS.
Um, Porter doesn't even think we are human till after birth 9 months after conception. That's where I pointed to the viability thing because we are blatantly human after 20 weeks.

 

[Kreskin]

lol That's quite true, but then they are called BIRTH days, yes? As in anniversaries of BIRTHS.
Um, Porter doesn't even think we are human till after birth 9 months after conception. That's where I pointed to the viability thing because we are blatantly human after 20 weeks.

Yes we celebrate 'birth' days but on our birthdays say we are x-years old. If we're human beings for more than that shouldn't we add the 9 months in?

 

[Machjo]

Still going on with this debate. C'mon guys, loosen up. SJP's right. What's with a snapped vertebrae at 20 weeks. No big deal. A little pain, sure, but if the doc does it quick-like, the rat'll feel it for but a sec. before it croaks.

(I am being sarcastic of course)

 

[AnnaG]

Yes we celebrate 'birth' days but on our birthdays say we are x-years old. If we're human beings for more than that shouldn't we add the 9 months in?

Perhaps. But change tradition? Whatever for? Just to be technically accurate?