Is a fetus a Human being?

[AnnaG]

Again, it's playing semantics. By the fetal stage we're "developing humans". Prove that term wrong. Anyone could argue it and I wouldn't apologize for having a differing opinion. Your answer would be no more right than mine. Words and phrases are subjective. We have the same genetic makeup as a one hour old embryo as we do when full grown, but there are obvious distinctive differences between a one-hour old embryo and a birthed bay or one that is 32 weeks along.

We are developing humans when the sperm burrows into the egg and the result starts to develop. It is absolutely impossible to develop into anything else. Depending upon the rate of development, according to the appropriate science, we are viable humans somewhere around 20 weeks and 500 grams of mass. That isn't semantics. That is what science discovers.
And there's a huge difference between your birthed boy and a 90 year old. So?

 

[Machjo]

I don't buy the 'it's her body' line.

I'm a man, but if I were, let's say, addicted to opium, and it was destroying my body, I would hope to God that society cared enough about me to take away my freedom and lock me up in a hospital where I have no access to opium, for my own good. We have freedom over our bodies to some degree. But when we lose control of ourselves and our actions can hurt us, then society, out of concern for our wellbeing, must do the right thing and remove this freedom from us until we become properly functional again. To not do so would be heartless and cruel.

As for a woman and her feotus, society does have a responsibility to protect the feotus from the mother if necessary.

 

[MHz]

Well your source is complete nonsense. Show me anyone who survived at 20 weeks.

Stick you into the Arctic in the middle of winter how long would you last? Since the correct answer would be 'not long' are you independently alive?

 

[Kreskin]

We are developing humans when the sperm burrows into the egg and the result starts to develop. It is absolutely impossible to develop into anything else. Depending upon the rate of development, according to the appropriate science, we are viable humans somewhere around 20 weeks and 500 grams of mass. That isn't semantics. That is what science discovers.
And there's a huge difference between your birthed boy and a 90 year old. So?

Viable for what? You think a foot long fetus has much of a chance? I don't think science has seen a baby survive delivery at 20 weeks. Even at 24 it's an extreme long shot.

 

[MHz]

I don't buy the 'it's her body' line.

I'm a man, but if I were, let's say, addicted to opium, and it was destroying my body, I would hope to God that society cared enough about me to take away my freedom and lock me up in a hospital where I have no access to opium, for my own good. We have freedom over our bodies to some degree. But when we lose control of ourselves and our actions can hurt us, then society, out of concern for our wellbeing, must do the right thing and remove this freedom from us until we become properly functional again. To not do so would be heartless and cruel.

As for a woman and her feotus, society does have a responsibility to protect the feotus from the mother if necessary.

That is the same society that makes opium available so obviously society doesn't care about a few lost souls.

 

[AnnaG]

Well your source is complete nonsense. Show me anyone who survived at 20 weeks.

Then science is complete nonsense and we might as well all start believing in faerietales and monsters and gods.
Come here and I will show you my neighbor.

I am going to quit reposting my information because no-one seems to read it. This is the third or fourth time I have posted the stuff:

Perinatal Care at the Threshold of Viability: An International Comparison of Practical Guidelines for the Treatment of Extremely Preterm Births -- Pignotti and Donzelli 121 (1): e193 -- Pediatrics

Fetus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Francis2004]

Yeah. Embryologists dicker over the 12-14 day thing and say after that is when people are human beings. Geneticists think its from the first second when the first cell splitting because it has developed its own unique DNA.
My personal view is that a child is a child from when the sperm digs its way into the egg, but that is only a personal view. My objective view follows the science of embryology view, that life as a human starts at 12 to 14 days. A viable human life starts at about 20 weeks.

Isn't that what the SCoC has an issue with however..

A Sperm must genetically mutate the egg to change the DNA.

I would tend to agree with you that it does not happen right away. In a chemical world the reaction might be immediate but in the nature world it usually takes a little while for the egg to be mutated my the sperm and although and fertilized it still has not been attached to the uterus.. This is why we can use the in vitro fertilization method successfully..

 

[lone wolf]

I don't buy the 'it's her body' line.

As for a woman and her feotus, society does have a responsibility to protect the feotus from the mother if necessary.

Sorry.... I just don't catch your point. Are you suggesting the woman should be in custody during her pregnancy - or - the pregnancy should be terminated?

 

[AnnaG]

Viable for what? You think a foot long fetus has much of a chance? I don't think science has seen a baby survive delivery at 20 weeks. Even at 24 it's an extreme long shot.

Well, I don't think you've researched the issue. So what? Scientists have proven the viability. If you can't accept that then you need to research more.
Personally I prefer to choose scientific opinion over yours as to when a human is viable.

 

[Kreskin]

What you just posted doesn't support your argument.

 

[AnnaG]

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Yeah, they don't know what they are talking about. :roll:

 

[AnnaG]

What you just posted doesn't support your argument.

Perhaps to you. But I can't help that.
From the first link:

"With current standards, intensive care is generally considered justifiable at

25 weeks, compassionate care at

22 weeks, and an individual approach at 23 to 24 weeks, consistent with the parents' wishes and the infant's clinical conditions at birth." And keep in mind that was two years ago. A lot more research has passed under the bridge since then.

 

[Kreskin]

Well, I don't think you've researched the issue. So what? Scientists have proven the viability. If you can't accept that then you need to research more.
Personally I prefer to choose scientific opinion over yours as to when a human is viable.

I'm sorry Anna, providing compassionate care to 22 week dying just-born baby does not support an argument that it is viable. Read more about this. Scientists do not support a 20 week pregnancy as viable. They simply don't. I could post a million links to show you but I would hope you could read up a little more on your own.

 

[AnnaG]

I might point out that viability does not mean independence.

 

[AnnaG]

I'm sorry Anna, providing compassionate care to 22 week dying just-born baby does not support an argument that it is viable. Read more about this. Scientists do not support a 20 week pregnancy as viable. They simply don't. I could post a million links to show you but I would hope you could read up a little more on your own.

Then post your own links. I am tired of being one of the only 3 or 4 people that do post scientific stuff.

 

[lone wolf]

Does anyone know how far along the Dion quints were to be three months premature?

 

[AnnaG]

My guess would be 6 months.

 

[Francis2004]

Then post your own links. I am tired of being one of the only 3 or 4 people that do post scientific stuff.

Hi Anna, much like you in a non-religious site I have been looking up the terms at as my memory from having my kids is a bit fuzzy now.. :smile:

Human fertilization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[gerryh]

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/magazine/articles/2008/04/27/extreme_preemies/
And then there was Amillia Sonja Taylor, a Florida girl born after just 21 weeks and six days of gestation, weighing less than 10 ounces and measuring 9 1/2 inches long out of the womb. When she was discharged from a Miami hospital in February 2007, four months after her birth
As recently as the 1970s, most babies born before 28 weeks died.
Gerry says:
thanks babe
Jenn says:
no prob
there are lots of doccumented facts on this too
everyone that has a preemie now blogs it for others to follow
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070220/baby_premature_070219/20070220?hub=CTVNewsAt11
pictures of the first one
"When I started my training in 1987, a baby who survived at 25 weeks gestation was quite amazing," says Andrew R. Barden, MD, medical director of the NICU at St. Luke's Hospital, in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. Although extremely premature birth still significantly increases a child's chances of dying before hospital discharge, "now our expectation is that a baby born at 25 weeks will live," he says.

Since Jenn refuses to post in here anymore I asked her to send me some info that pertains to this as she has kept up with all the ongoing esearch into neonatal care.

 

[Francis2004]

Does anyone know how far along the Dion quints were to be three months premature?

Answer

The quintuplets were born three months premature and the family was not even aware that Elzire was pregnant with quintuplets.

Dionne quintuplets - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia