Refuse to choose® women deserve better® than abortion

SirJosephPorter

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Nov 7, 2008
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SJP I am not AnnaG

Sorry Francis, my mistake.

That is exactly what I meant by exemption by Law ..

There can be special provisions that exempt certain situations. Not everything is as cut and dry and all Laws have exemptions.


It doesn’t work that way, Francis. Either they are human beings or they aren’t. If they are human beings, they cannot be treated as second class citizens, by making ‘exemptions’ for them, they have the same rights and guarantees as everybody else, guaranteed by the Charter.

You can’t have it both ways. If they are declared human beings for the purpose of banning abortion, then they cannot be said not to be human beings and then given ‘exemption’, meaning denied rights available to other human beings, Charter won’t permit that.
 

SirJosephPorter

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I agree but but switching tracks when you can't win in the science discussion to claim victory in the legal end is dodgy, IMO.

I thought I won the discussion Anna, I have demonstrated how difficult it is to establish the humanity of fetus in the womb, how reasonable people can disagree about it (and how anybody who definitely states that he ‘knows’ when fetus becomes a human being is simply stating his religious beliefs).

Anyway, all they have to do legally is make a provision for people still inside the womb; such as, people on the outside are required to have names, SINs, etc. and people inside aren't required. BTW, speaking of names, I can't think of anyone who doesn't come up with at least one name for a child before it is born.

It doesn’t work that way Anna. All the things I mentioned in my previous post (and several more besides) will have to be carried out. Charter won’t let you discriminate against the unborn, if they are considered to be human beings.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Just curious if anyone is gaining any ground in this argument in the past couple of years...................:lol::lol:


There is no ground to gain JLM. Abortion is legal in Canada without any restrictions, end of story. The issue has long been dead and buried, and any politician stupid enough to dig it up will pay heavy political price in Ontario, Quebec and possibly even in BC.

He may quite possibly get more votes in Alberta. But if anything a conservative is likely to dig up the issue, he doesn’t need any more votes in Alberta. Digging up the issue today would be tantamount to political suicide.

So forget last two years, I don’t think things have moved for the past 20 years (since Supreme Court judgment overturning the then existing abortion law).
 

SirJosephPorter

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I am Anna, Sir Joe. I can't see why unborn humans would need to be exempted from the Charter. They should have the rights to choice of religion, expression, peaceful assembly, life, liberty, security, etc. What would it harm?

OK, then why were you arguing that exemption should be made with regard to SIN, taking miscarried fetuses to funeral home, giving a welfare mother welfare for two person form the moment of conception etc.?
 

SirJosephPorter

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Question: What is the difference between a dead person and a fetus?

Answer: A heart beat.

Do you need a scientist to explain that?

Heartbeat does not define humanity. Remember Terri Schivo? She had a heart beat, yet there were serious differences of opinion as to whether there was a human being in that shell of a body.
 

Cannuck

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Feb 2, 2006
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Remember Terri Schivo? She had a heart beat, yet there were serious differences of opinion as to whether there was a human being in that shell of a body.


Wrong (as usual). There was no discussion whatsoever as to whether Terri was a human being. Once you need to resort to manipulation of history in order to defend your position, your position becomes indefensible.
 

SirJosephPorter

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**************************************************

Thank you Thank You THANK YOU!!! Finally a personal story of the real pain abortion causes women, the first that actually deals directly with my presenting thread! I too knew a woman I grew up with that had two abortions to please men who were not to be any part of her life anyway. She will always feel the pain of the total ramifications of her decision. I believe she still mourns those two children for today is childless, not by Choice. She actually fears pregnancy again, potentially raising a child then just to lose another. That woman also has issues with whether losing a man over another potential decison. She is torn, her heart is maligned forever.

I pray for her today again, I hope she has found the Lord and He heals her heart giving her a new faith, a reknewed hope and some fabulous joy!

Thank you again, Mark:fish:

Bluedog, I have no doubt that yours is a true story. No doubt there are some women who would be affected that way by abortion.

But it is wrong to generalize and claim that al women will be affected the same way. Some will, others won’t. It is for each woman to decide how abortion will affect her and then get it or not.

I remember a few years ago I saw a program. The host was talking to a group of Italian women about abortion. One of them told her that she had aborted twins. She stated that matter of factly, she did not appear to be in any distress, she had no guilt feelings (none that were obvious anyway). She said she went on to have two babies when the time was right.

It is always dangerous to generalize from a particular case. Each human being is different, no two are alike. That is why it must be an individual choice.
 

Kreskin

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Feb 23, 2006
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There are 3 examples that I know of personally in relation to abortion.

1rst - When I was in high school there was this girl I knew that was completely upset one day. She had pulled me and another friend of mine aside and exclaimed that she was pregnant. She wanted to have an abortion. Her problem wasn't having the abortion but rather that she was worried about her future fertility as she had already had two abortions before and the doctor told her that to have another one would be quite precarious to her and her ability to have a family in the future. We didn't know what to tell her. We were taught about contraceptives. We were taught about safe sex. We were in grade 11 which would mean that by 16 this girl had already had 2 abortions and was considering her third which she ended up doing. Honestly, we both thought she was an idiot because obtaining birth control such as condoms or the pill was so friggen easy. A lot education did for her!

2nd - There was this guy in the military who was dating this girl in Vancouver. He lived in another province. He would delight in showing off pics of his girls chest from his cellphone to anyone that would take a gander hoping to garner the old "atta boy" from the people around him. One day he told a couple of his buddies that he got her pregnant. He didn't know what to do. She was worried that her dad would kill her if he found out that she was pregnant. He asked around about what to do. She ended up having an abortion. He paid for it and then went off on his tour to Afghanistan. I don't think they are together anymore. And for all intents and purposes, this guy was not worth all the pain and suffering. I can assure you.

As far as I'm concerned, both of these situations were truly selfish reasons to terminate a pregnancy. And I have a feeling that these are the typical senarios in which a lot abortions are contemplated.

The 3rd situation is different and the most personal - I had these playmates that I grew up with who were children that belonged to a couple who were friends with my parents. I was shocked to learn, much later when I was older, that one of the boys was supposed to have been aborted by his mother. She tried the french abortion pill. This was way back in the 70's but it didn't work. And by the sheer virtue that it had failed, his mother decided to let it alone and have the baby. He is a wonderful person and has since gone on to have a decent life and a family of his own. I to this day have no idea whether or not he knows about what his mother did or tried to do, nor would I ever want to find out but I wept in private after I was told this. That he may never have been alive, I would've never have had a funner playmate/partner in crime (man did we get into some trouble) nor would I have had a sweeter first kiss.

Abortion is all too serious an issue and the way that is is being debated on this thread is so demeaning. It means the loss of a future friend, at least, that's what it would have meant to me.
Most people who want abortion banned still have a laundry list of exceptions; exceptions that meet their personal values criteria. Everyone is different and have different reasons. And since we're not living their lives how about we let them them live their own?

What about the use of condoms and the friends you didn't know because their dads wore one? Is this something we should mourn?
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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Most people who want abortion banned still have a laundry list of exceptions; exceptions that meet their personal values criteria. Everyone is different and have different reasons. And since we're not living their lives how about we let them them live their own?

What about the use of condoms and the friends you didn't know because their dads wore one? Is this something we should mourn?
Take that another step and how many potential children never get born because of masturbation and wet dreams?
 

SirJosephPorter

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Take that another step and how many potential children never get born because of masturbation and wet dreams?

Precisely the point I have made in this thread, Cliffy. If people hold fetus in such reverence, why does the same reverence not extend to sperm and egg?
 

gerryh

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Nov 21, 2004
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Precisely the point I have made in this thread, Cliffy. If people hold fetus in such reverence, why does the same reverence not extend to sperm and egg?


because the sperm on it's own, and the egg on it's own can NOT develop into anything beyond what they already are. Combine them and you end up with a new life.
 

Liberalman

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Mar 18, 2007
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Precisely the point I have made in this thread, Cliffy. If people hold fetus in such reverence, why does the same reverence not extend to sperm and egg?

Because the sperm and an egg that did not come together it is not a fetus but when it does then it is and must be protected from inception to birth.

This way the mothers that kill their children can go to jail
 

SirJosephPorter

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Because the sperm and an egg that did not come together it is not a fetus but when it does then it is and must be protected from inception to birth.

This way the mothers that kill their children can go to jail

But again, why? I don’t see what is so special about the fetus at conception, as compared to the sperm or the egg.
 

YukonJack

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Dec 26, 2008
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"Precisely the point I have made in this thread, Cliffy. If people hold fetus in such reverence, why does the same reverence not extend to sperm and egg?"

Because separately they are not a human life.

Kind of like an epoxy glue. One part is worthless without the other.

Or like cement without water.
Or like computer without software.
Or like carriage without horse. (I guess I am dating myself).

Just for curiousity, Obama's last "CZAR" firmly believes that it is OK to "abort" a baby up to two years of age. Also, all those who are old or infirm. No wonder the Obama health care plan appeals to liberals. Kill anyone younger than two years of age or older than 60 years. Unless, of course, they vote Democrat.

I am not doing your homework for you by providing the link. Look it up.
 
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givpeaceachance

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Mar 12, 2008
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I'm not here to participate in mindless intellectualizations (Definition: Intellectualization is separating oneself from uncomfortable emotions by taking a pseudo-objective viewpoint.).

I assure you that those 3 examples that I shared are quite true. Funny how they get rejected because they don't fit into your rather narrow minded arguments. Truly intelligent people don't deny information that way.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that SJP, Kreskin and Cliffy are all men. The lack of respect for life and maternal instinct is evident in your rebuttals.

Until you bear the responsibility of carrying a life in your body for 9 months, feeling this life move, kick and stretch, even hiccup, I don't think you could possibly ever come close to understanding what the beginning of life is. The fact that I am a woman already gives me a upper edge on this debate simply because this is something you have to FEEL. Physically AND emotionally. And from reading all the trash that has come out of your inflated heads explains to me exactly why men were never given such a huge and special responsibility. Your mindless and endless intellectualizing on the subject simply goes to show exactly how devoid you are of what it takes to bring life into this world. And of course, I am not saying this about all men as this can be applied to some women as well and some men are fathers long before they ever lay eyes on their own children.

In the first 2 situations the people asked others what to do. This is a question that I wouldn't be able to answer for anyone but myself. BUT I have a right to think, inside of myself, whatever I want, just like all of you. I remained friends with the girl in high school. What she did, she did to herself and to the three possibilities of what could've been. This is something she had to live with.

EITHER WAY

The point of the OP is not a question of if abortion is right or wrong. If you even read the first link - which I doubt you did - you would see that it is about the gov making it their responsibility to force women to have abortions and forced sterility on women. It is talking about a planetary regime that would decide who gets to have children and who doesn't.

Yet another situation of men intellectualizing life as if others lives and the business of bringing a baby to term was their corner of the market. Surely, if you read the actual article you wouldn't be so hot to trot regarding the issues of sterilizing women against their will. At least, I hope their is enough humanity in you to see that what was being proposed by John Holdren, Obama's appointed Director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy and Co-Chair of the President's Council of Advisors on Science and Technology, is an absolute house of horrors that goes against every human right ever established over the past century.

Read the article lest you look like a total thread hijacking idiot!

The question is: Do you think that gov should force a woman to have an abortion against her own will? Do you think gov should impose on society a 2 child law?
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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"Precisely the point I have made in this thread, Cliffy. If people hold fetus in such reverence, why does the same reverence not extend to sperm and egg?"

Because separately they are not a human life.

Kind of like an epoxy glue. One part is worthless without the other.

Or like cement without water.
Or like computer without software.
Or like carriage without horse. (I guess I am dating myself).

Just for curiousity, Obama's last "CZAR" firmly believes that it is OK to "abort" a baby up to two years of age. Also, all those who are old or infirm. No wonder the Obama health care plan appeals to liberals. Kill anyone younger than two years of age or older than 60 years. Unless, of course, they vote Democrat.

I am not doing your homework for you by providing the link. Look it up.

Or maybe a better analogy is NaCl, neither one of them is anything like salt.
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
17,507
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There are 3 examples that I know of personally in relation to abortion.

1rst - When I was in high school there was this girl I knew that was completely upset one day. She had pulled me and another friend of mine aside and exclaimed that she was pregnant. She wanted to have an abortion. Her problem wasn't having the abortion but rather that she was worried about her future fertility as she had already had two abortions before and the doctor told her that to have another one would be quite precarious to her and her ability to have a family in the future. We didn't know what to tell her. We were taught about contraceptives. We were taught about safe sex. We were in grade 11 which would mean that by 16 this girl had already had 2 abortions and was considering her third which she ended up doing. Honestly, we both thought she was an idiot because obtaining birth control such as condoms or the pill was so friggen easy. A lot education did for her!

2nd - There was this guy in the military who was dating this girl in Vancouver. He lived in another province. He would delight in showing off pics of his girls chest from his cellphone to anyone that would take a gander hoping to garner the old "atta boy" from the people around him. One day he told a couple of his buddies that he got her pregnant. He didn't know what to do. She was worried that her dad would kill her if he found out that she was pregnant. He asked around about what to do. She ended up having an abortion. He paid for it and then went off on his tour to Afghanistan. I don't think they are together anymore. And for all intents and purposes, this guy was not worth all the pain and suffering. I can assure you.

As far as I'm concerned, both of these situations were truly selfish reasons to terminate a pregnancy. And I have a feeling that these are the typical senarios in which a lot abortions are contemplated.

The 3rd situation is different and the most personal - I had these playmates that I grew up with who were children that belonged to a couple who were friends with my parents. I was shocked to learn, much later when I was older, that one of the boys was supposed to have been aborted by his mother. She tried the french abortion pill. This was way back in the 70's but it didn't work. And by the sheer virtue that it had failed, his mother decided to let it alone and have the baby. He is a wonderful person and has since gone on to have a decent life and a family of his own. I to this day have no idea whether or not he knows about what his mother did or tried to do, nor would I ever want to find out but I wept in private after I was told this. That he may never have been alive, I would've never have had a funner playmate/partner in crime (man did we get into some trouble) nor would I have had a sweeter first kiss.

Abortion is all too serious an issue and the way that is is being debated on this thread is so demeaning. It means the loss of a future friend, at least, that's what it would have meant to me.
That is what I am saying. If people knew ALL there is to know concerning the circumstances before during and after abortions, a lot of them would think twice.
I had a gf ask me if I would have sex with a guy who didn't want to use a condom. I said as long as I had my IUD and some foam just in case, sure, but if not, the guy would be taking a cold shower.