Proven Western Logic VS. Flawed Eastern Logic

[In Between Man]

What is right or wrong, good and evil, love hate? Nothing more than personal opinion.

That's great news to me, because I'm looking for someone to kick in the teeth and ask for another. If it's merely personal opinion, I want you to tell me that when I prevent your freedom to speak. I want you to remember that when I break into your home and steal your valuables. When I'm forcing my will on you, tell me your disagreement with the situation is only your opinion.

Don't you dare tell me its "evil" or "wrong".

"I thought that stuff was all just opinion!" will be my reply. "What right for me, guy, is too tie you up and throw you in the river! What's your opinion about that?" Why would I care if its only wrong for you?

You said my way of thinking is foreign to you, well, I understand your thinking very well. You can't backup the things you say. If I were to prevent you from speaking, you would most certainly be outraged. When it happens, try telling yourself its only your personal opinion. Your suggestion of: what's right, wrong, good, evil? - will be far from your mind. That I guarantee.

 

[In Between Man]

The core issue here is that you want me to debate you from your perspective using your rules. I can't do that because your perspective makes no sense to me and I can only debate from my point of view and rules that make sense to me.

Lay down any rules you want for debate. Need I remind you though, that your rules make debating pointless! If truth doesn't exist, why even make any further claims or statements? They can't be "true".

Your avatars alwayz a have spiritual theme, and if I'm not mistaken, I've read things you've posted talking about spiritual aspects of life. Why do I get the impression that you kinda-sorta believe there's something else to life, but on the other hand are mad at God and wish to have this spirit of rebellion? Check your reply tomorrow bud. :smile:

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Humans are flawed therefore their logic is flawed.

I don't see how that conclusion necessarily follows from the premise, it's too much like saying "humans are flawed therefore everything they do is flawed." I grant you that humans are flawed, but that doesn't necessarily mean we don't get things right sometimes.

 

[L Gilbert]

Exactly. One of the things on the list of false arguments mentions that.

 

[Cliffy]

"I thought that stuff was all just opinion!" will be my reply. "What right for me, guy, is too tie you up and throw you in the river! What's your opinion about that?" Why would I care if its only wrong for you?

Well I know all that stuff is wrong for you too so I'm not too worried.If I should encounter a person like the one you are talking about, I will know how to deal with them so I'm not too worried about them either. If someone should snuff me, so what?
I have nothing to fear of the afterlife because I already died twice and it is nothing to fear.

Have I made peace with my creator, you bet. You see, it would take volumes to tell you what I know from my studies and experiences. But I know what you think you know because you have pigeon holed yourself as a christian. I have talked with hundreds of people like you, I have read your book and I have listened to the propaganda for over sixty years.

I spent forty years studying comparative religions and philosophies, psychology and spirituality. I have participated in ceremony with people of many faiths. I was trained to and have conducted traditional ceremony for aboriginal people who had lost their culture.

I don't say this to brag or to say that I know more than you. I just have a different perspective on reality. I am the product of my life time of study, training and experiences. There is no way for you to understand where I have been and where I am at this time. And there is no way that I can convey any of what I know to because you have an agenda and that is to prove you right. I have no such agenda. I don't need to prove anything.

 

[Cliffy]

I don't see how that conclusion necessarily follows from the premise, it's too much like saying "humans are flawed therefore everything they do is flawed." I grant you that humans are flawed, but that doesn't necessarily mean we don't get things right sometimes.

Flawed is relative. A more correct statement would be that we are not perfect, therefore our logic is not perfect. But I will ad that this is only so because we do not accept that we are perfect. Like the devil is a personification of aspects of ourselves that we do not want to take responsibility for, god is a personification of an aspect that we do not feel worthy of accepting and that is our own divinity.

We create ourselves. With every decision, every choice, every experience we define who we are. We are not just our jobs, our marital status, our gender, hair colour or size, we are what we think and believe. And what we think and believe has a profound influence on what we experience.

Unfortunately there is not enough time or space to go into any depth into how we create ourselves. A good introduction can be seen in "What the Bleep do we Know?" and Monty Python's Meaning of Life.

 

[In Between Man]

I have nothing to fear of the afterlife because I already died twice and it is nothing to fear.

This I must hear more of. Please elaborate.

I am the product of my life time of study, training and experiences.

That's great, but that's doesn't mean that you have life completely figured out. That doesn't mean that haven't overlooked anything. Or that you have come across the truth and choice to reject it.

There is no way for you to understand where I have been and where I am at this time.

Ditto.

And there is no way that I can convey any of what I know to because you have an agenda and that is to prove you right.

My agenda is to argue that JESUS CHRIST is RIGHT, not me. I'm merely an instrument for God to use.

I have no such agenda. I don't need to prove anything.

I don't buy that for a second. If that were even remotely true you wouldn't be on this forum, and you wouldn't have publish articles in the past.

 

[Cliffy]

Alley,

I write to organize thoughts, ideas and random insights. They are purely for my own entertainment. What I'm trying to get you to see is that is that everybody has to come to their truth in their own way at their own pace. By proselytizing the evangelical message, you are saying that there is only one truth for everybody and that you have found it, which isn't true.

When I wake up in the morning, I know that I have more to learn. If I didn't I wouldn't wake up.

When you wake up in the morning you think you know. That is egotistical nonsense. You put all your eggs in one basket. You believe the bible is the word of god and yet you have no idea who, where, when, or why it was put together or why so many christian writings of the day were left out. You want to blindly believe and refuse to be confused by the facts.

If there is a loving creator, then it would have given the truth to all people, in all historical time frames, in all geographical locations. To do otherwise would be psychotic. So to say that the bible is the only truth and way is to deny that the truth is everywhere that you omnipotent god is. You put on your blinders and only accept one tiny bit of the truth. Is that not only arrogant but ignorant to?

There are thousands of interpretations of the bible alone and you chose to believe one small (evangelical) point of view and deny all the rest. You leave no room for all the wisdom of all the other cultures and belief systems out there. You are looking at life through a long tube - only one tiny aspect and you think you have found the truth. You are like the blind man who is holding the scrotum of an elephant and you think that is what an elephant is.

 

[Cliffy]

"Ignorance is bliss"... and you have been quite blissful these last couple of days.

 

[El Barto]

know what cliffy..... You dear sir, are a self righteous, egotistical *****.

HAHAHAHAHAHAH
rich real rich

 

[In Between Man]

Alley,
By proselytizing the evangelical message, you are saying that there is only one truth for everybody and that you have found it, which isn't true.

There is only one truth for all people. Not just in the spiritual sense, in everything.

Cliffy woke up today. Is this not true for all people, all cultures, whether they know about it, or even reject it as truth?

 

[In Between Man]

Have I made peace with my creator, you bet.

One thing I've noticed about you Cliffy is that you flip flop.

Is there a Creator or not?

You've also recently stated that you need to follow the truth NO MATTER where it takes you.

So, is truth absolute or not?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Is there a Creator or not?

Alley, I don’t know. I don’t see any evidence for a creator so I assume there isn’t one. The burden of proof is upon those who say that there is a Creator, not upon those who say that there isn’t one (logically, one cannot prove a negative).

So, is truth absolute or not?

In sciences such as Physics, Chemistry etc., there can be absolute truths. In religious, metaphysical or philosophical arena there are no absolute truths.

 

[Cliffy]

One thing I've noticed about you Cliffy is that you flip flop.

Is there a Creator or not?

You've also recently stated that you need to follow the truth NO MATTER where it takes you.

So, is truth absolute or not?

I am not flip flopping. Only your understanding of what I am says is. I have always contended that there are no absolute truths (not even in science). You will find your truth in your experiences in life, not in books or from "teachers". My concept of a creator is so far from your comprehension that it would be impossible to relate it to you in any way you could understand. my understanding of cosmology, science and life itself were learned while my body was flat lining, while I was not in this body.

Until, Gaia forbid, you should ever have a near death experience, you will not be able to understand what I am talking about, so I will not elaborate. It would be pointless. But anybody who has died and come back would agree. You are young. You have a lot of experiencing to do before you reach wisdom.

 

[In Between Man]

there are no absolute truths (not even in science).

It is so pointless debating with someone who tries to pass off his knowledge as truth, and then turns around and say that there is no truth. This being your tactic for defense when you should actually hear the truth and it doesn't conform to your beliefs.

 

[In Between Man]

So, is truth absolute or not?

In sciences such as Physics, Chemistry etc., there can be absolute truths. In religious, metaphysical or philosophical arena there are no absolute truths.

Explain your logic for this please step by step. If truth exists why does it not exist for all arenas?

Religion, metaphysics or philosophy has MAJOR intellectual obstacles when attempting to discover truth. Does that mean that there is no truth?

Before we discovered and then learned how to hone electricity did it exist?

 

[Cliffy]

It is so pointless debating with someone who tries to pass off his knowledge as truth, and then turns around and say that there is no truth. This being your tactic for defense when you should actually hear the truth and it doesn't conform to your beliefs.

You are starting to get it. There is no point in debating. I can tell you what I believe and you can tell me what you believe, but debate requires that one of us is wrong. The point is that your belief in absolutes is just your opinion. To say you are right and anybody else is wrong is to put yourself above them. That is arrogance and I think your belief system says arrogance is a sin.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Religion, metaphysics or philosophy has MAJOR intellectual obstacles when attempting to discover truth. Does that mean that there is no truth?

In religion, philosophy and metaphysics, the truth is unknowable. For instance, what happens after death is there life after death? We don’t know, and we have no way of finding out. To me, that is the same as saying that truth doesn’t exist. Or does God exist? If so, which is the true God, the God of Vedas, God of Bible, God of Koran?

If the truth is unknowable, that is not any different from saying that there is no truth.


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[In Between Man]

In religion, philosophy and metaphysics, the truth is unknowable. For instance, what happens after death is there life after death? We don’t know, and we have no way of finding out. To me, that is the same as saying that truth doesn’t exist. Or does God exist? If so, which is the true God, the God of Vedas, God of Bible, God of Koran?

If the truth is unknowable, that is not any different from saying that there is no truth.

But there is a difference between not knowing and not existing my friend. Look at what I asked you SJP:

Before we discover and honed electricity did it still exist?

 

[In Between Man]

You are starting to get it. There is no point in debating. I can tell you what I believe and you can tell me what you believe, but debate requires that one of us is wrong. The point is that your belief in absolutes is just your opinion. To say you are right and anybody else is wrong is to put yourself above them. That is arrogance and I think your belief system says arrogance is a sin.

But I'm not saying I'm better than anyone else. I'm a sinner like everyone else. I only want others have what I have and to see what I see.

My boss is an atheist and yet I don't think I'm better than him. If fact God commands me to respect authority, not to mention the fact that he has more life experience and therefore I respect him.