Adam and Eve's children...

[Tonington]

I was reading a good blog article on this today S_lone, if you're still interested in the notion of inbreeding starting with just two adults. The Habsburg's were finished off by inbreeding. Charles II was the end of that dynasty. He suffered ill health, and was impotent.

Gonzalo Alvarez of the University of Santiago de Compostela recently traced the line, and calculated the inbreeding coefficient of the Habsburg family through 16 generations. Charles II had an F-value (the inbreeding coefficient) of 0.254.

Alvarez even speculates on what rare recessive disorders Charles may have suffered from as a result of his high degree of homozygous traits. I think this is a very good parallel to your original post.

" Concerned with corralling their heritage within their bloodlines, the Spanish Habsburgs married heavily between each other. Most of their 11 marriages were between blood relatives, including several matches between first cousins and two between uncles and nieces. Charles's own mother was the niece of his father, and his grandmother was also his aunt. "
Not Exactly Rocket Science : How inbreeding killed off a line of kings

There would have to be an awful lot of the same going on beginning with two adults. Besides just that, consider that Eve is basically a feminized clone of Adam!

 

[Tonington]

Forgot the PLoS journal article, that's here:
PLoS ONE: The Role of Inbreeding in the Extinction of a European Royal Dynasty

 

[Kreskin]

Maybe their offspring immaculately conceived until the gene pool was sufficient.

 

[MHz]

That's a better though than how many babies could a really, really big female giant have if room was the only issue and the babies were normal human size at birth.

No matter how many their were there was less than 5 couples at one point. That should be where the counting starts rather than from us, rather than us having countless relatives (parents, grand-parents, great etc)our path down from their is a single strand, most of their relatives not part of our path, going back is also a single strand.

 

[lone wolf]

It must have been fun because Noah and the missus got in on the act....

 

[Dexter Sinister]

No matter how many their were there was less than 5 couples at one point.

I presume you make that claim based on the story of Noah in the Old Testament. That story's not true MHz, there was no global flood, it's a mythic tale probably borrowed from the Epic of Gilgamesh.

 

[gopher]

''Weren't people on this earth thousands and thousands of years before the so-called
appearance of 'adam and eve'''


According to the Bible, there were two separate creations:


Genesis 1:26 -- man created and had dominion over the earth (''fruitful + multiply'')

Genesis 2:4 -- ''generations'' went by; we do not know by how many centuries or millenia

Genesis 2:5 -- Adam was finally created



We do not know the time span between those verses above.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Weren't people on this earth thousands and thousands of years before the so-called appearance of 'adam and eve'

Yes. According to Bishop Ussher's analysis of the genealogy reported in the OT, they appeared around 6000 years ago, he dated the creation to 4004 B.C., and I think he even went so far as to specify a particular Thursday in October. Anyone who believes that has no hope of ever understanding reality, the facts just won't fit into that time scale.

We do not know the time span between those verses above.

Doesn't much matter. It's mythology. Reality's consistent, mythology's not and it's foolish to try to twist it to be so.

 

[MHz]

I presume you make that claim based on the story of Noah in the Old Testament. That story's not true MHz, there was no global flood, it's a mythic tale probably borrowed from the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Scientifically if Yellowstone blew at it's biggest estimate and all the NA faultlines ruptured all athe same time followed by a deacde of near starvation and succumning to the elements that a pocket of 8 people cannot be found at any odds. In the event that something like that happened if a group turns out to be less than "X" what should they do, under a certain number they are doomed, no matter how much food they grow, genetically they are doomed to eventual extinction.
Wouldn't that be the ideal moment for a species jump?
Anybody who ends up in that position is not going to take the 'might as well give up' attitude after being the pointohone that came through an dear complete disaster.

''Weren't people on this earth thousands and thousands of years before the so-called
appearance of 'adam and eve'''


According to the Bible, there were two separate creations:


Genesis 1:26 -- man created and had dominion over the earth (''fruitful + multiply'')

Genesis 2:4 -- ''generations'' went by; we do not know by how many centuries or millenia

Genesis 2:5 -- Adam was finally created



We do not know the time span between those verses above.

I treat it this way (and can still sleep soundly at night), I add a zero to our time because God is bigger than we are and His day is also bigger than our day. That gives Adam and Eve about 45,000 years in Eden before the knowledge of good and evil was made known, from that day it's been about 4,500 years which is what I added the zero to, if it matches the age of the sun it's probably

 

[JLM]

I presume you make that claim based on the story of Noah in the Old Testament. That story's not true MHz, there was no global flood, it's a mythic tale probably borrowed from the Epic of Gilgamesh.

I don't understand, a few years ago I thought someone came across a few planks on the side of Mt. Ararat that were supposed to be remnants of the Ark. :lol::lol: (I think Noah's initials were carved in them)

 

[Stretch]

never let the truth get in the way of a good story..........

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Wouldn't that be the ideal moment for a species jump?

I don't know what you mean by a species jump. Would you expect humans to suddenly morph into something else, or some other species to jump into the human role in the ecology, or something else?

......from that day it's been about 4,500 years which is what I added the zero to, if it matches the age of the sun ...

The sun's about 5 billion years old. You still haven't grasped the basic fact: the creation story in Genesis is not the way things happened.

 

[JLM]

I don't know what you mean by a species jump. Would you expect humans to suddenly morph into something else, or some other species to jump into the human role in the ecology, or something else? The sun's about 5 billion years old. You still haven't grasped the basic fact: the creation story in Genesis is not the way things happened.

What that means is there is going to come a day when the entire human race is going to see the futility of it all and JUMP into the ocean and drown themselves. HENCE A SPECIES JUMP.

 

[El Barto]

hahahahah
Dexter , you have time to waste ....
oh brother

 

[El Barto]

What that means is there is going to come a day when the entire human race is going to see the futility of it all and JUMP into the ocean and drown themselves. HENCE A SPECIES JUMP.

I rather a species HUMP ;-)
Can't wait till that day comes

 

[MHz]

Brother and sister or father and daughter or mother and son have the greatest chance of having a mutated child. If that was just the start of the mutation the successive generations might also add further mutations. A large enough mutation (say over 100 generations) might have a life-form that was diverse from the way man is today. (infertile to todays mankind but able to impregnate another one that had gone through similar mutations)

Yes Dex I know your view of the Bible, that is why I tried to make it survivors of a near extinction event. Your denial of God isn't important to the thread or the topic of God in general. The genealogy given in Scripture is still more complete than what just about any family today knows about. If it was just written down in Neb's Babylon all those little details had to be memorized. I think it is more likely they got the 5 books when they got the two stone tablets. The 2nd summon to come onto His Holy Mountain was not just to sit around and watch the clock tick off a few days. Why bother you with the little details if you can't get past the first stumbling block. And that you can take to the bank......

What's wrong with something like that being the trigger event for evolution. Does it mess up the sacred theory, minuscule change over eons. I actually saw a pretty decent (in my limited way of comprehension) show on the provable evolution of some bone in the human scull. I think it was the explanation for the tip of the chin moving closer to the spine over many minute changes over a very long period of time. Their projection for the conclusion was it even going even closer and smaller. At a certain point it stopped and remained in that same position over eons barring some event that introduced a mutation. I'm pretty sure I can re-find it as it was only a few months ago.

What that means is there is going to come a day when the entire human race is going to see the futility of it all and JUMP into the ocean and drown themselves. HENCE A SPECIES JUMP.

Our current path of letting the club decide who lives and dies pretty much eliminates the human race ever getting that wise. lol The ocean is still there, being forcibly drowned off is not the same as jumping in under your own steam.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Why bother you with the little details if you can't get past the first stumbling block.

That being my rejection of the Bible as being literally true? That's not a stumbling block, that's just common sense.

What's wrong with something like that being the trigger event for evolution.

Evolution doesn't have trigger events in that sense, it's going on all the time. You may possibly be mis-reading Eldredge and Gould's theory of punctuated equilibrium.

 

[MHz]

LOL never heard of them I did see a preview to 'the hills have eyes' though. A tiny genetic number in any species should trigger mutations in any species at a higher rate. Is their any possibility that those mutations would have a positive change, like oversize eyes or bigger feet so they can walk on top as ash rather than have to struggle through it meaning they do not survive.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

LOL never heard of them...

I'm not surprised; if you'd ever made any serious effort at all to understand evolution you'd have heard at least of Gould. That doesn't, however, mean you haven't encountered their ideas in some form.

A tiny genetic number in any species should trigger mutations in any species at a higher rate.

I have no idea what "a tiny genetic number" means. Lots of things can trigger mutations, like heavy metals and ionizing radiation in the environment, and a sudden increase in those would certainly trigger mutations at a higher than normal rate. But it's a mistake to think that evolution operates only on mutations. Everybody's genetic endowment is unique, and it's those normal variations natural selection operates on, by altering the frequency of certain genes as their possessors have better reproductive success.

Is their any possibility that those mutations would have a positive change...

Yes, but it's not very likely, and in the face of a major environmental catastrophe like a major asteroid strike or the Yellowstone caldera blowing up, they couldn't possibly happen fast enough. There has to be time to produce a next generation before any mutations would be expressed.

 

[MHz]

Not all that surprising, the books I had open were more into mechanical systems.

Any species that becomes very close to becoming extinct and then recovers from a few handful of members, is sort of the way I was taking it, less than 100 pair. Using the Adam/Eve theme it is family members, using a Noah theme it it a bit more diverse. Even the end of the reptiles is said to have allowed mammals to 'explode'. Before that they were held in check. Success could have gone to the ones with a certain difference and all their 'cousins' simply vanished into the earth.