New Mexico Abolishes Death Penalty.

JLM

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With both capital punishment and abortion you can be totally against them, somewhat against them, have no opinion either way or be somewhat for them or totally for them. As for capital punishment I'm somewhat for it and as for abortion I'm somewhat against it. So there is proof that there is middle ground between the two extremes.
 

SirJosephPorter

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As far as I am concerned, there is no middle ground in death penalty. Government killing its own citizens is always wrong, never justified. There could possibly be a middle ground in abortion.

I personally draw the line at fetal viability. I wouldn’t mind some restrictions on abortion after fetal viability (that is around 24 to 28 weeks). However, currently abortion is not being abused in Canada; there are very few late term abortions. Indeed, it is very difficult to get abortion after 20 or 24 weeks in Canada, unless there is serious danger to mother’s health.

It a woman wants to get a late term abortion for other than a serious reason, she has to go to New York or Massachusetts. A law restricting late term abortions is not necessary at present. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. There is no need to open up a divisive, explosive issue like abortion at present.

So I would oppose reintroduction of death penalty for any crimes. While I am not opposed in principle to restricting late term abortions, currently there is no need for it, and I would oppose digging up the explosive issue once again.
 

Francis2004

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With both capital punishment and abortion you can be totally against them, somewhat against them, have no opinion either way or be somewhat for them or totally for them. As for capital punishment I'm somewhat for it and as for abortion I'm somewhat against it. So there is proof that there is middle ground between the two extremes.

JLM, don't take our word for it as you never will ;-).. Go to your Chuch and ask your Pastor / Priest the question.

Say I am "As for capital punishment I'm somewhat for it and as for abortion I'm somewhat against it". Do I qualify for middle ground ?

When your finised debating him / her you will either be "For or Against" either of those options and in the contect of those who are "Pro or Anti" you on either side depending on what you say. It is Black or White. There is no Middle Ground fancy footing around..

Sorry..
 

JLM

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JLM, don't take our word for it as you never will ;-).. Go to your Chuch and ask your Pastor / Priest the question.

Say I am "As for capital punishment I'm somewhat for it and as for abortion I'm somewhat against it". Do I qualify for middle ground ?

When your finised debating him / her you will either be "For or Against" either of those options and in the contect of those who are "Pro or Anti" you on either side depending on what you say. It is Black or White. There is no Middle Ground fancy footing around..

Sorry..

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't attend church, mainly because of the hypocracy and I don't need anyone else to translate the Bible for me. Depending on which verse from the Bible you want to quote from I'm sure you could cite something to prove any stance you take. Like any other decision in life there are sets of circumstances that have to be mulled over.
 

gopher

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The OJ Prosecution I thought had a great case. It all came down to jury selection. True enough... lots of money levels the playing field. The jury simply let him go. A video of him killing them would not have convicted him.



Had racist Hitlerian cop Mark Fuhrmann spoken the truth, there would easily have been a conviction.
 

karrie

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You are still confusing legal status under the law with scientific definitions. Define 'human' (not person), and define 'life'. Scientific definition and legal definition of these two terms are very different things.


That is not what the scientists say, karrie. Scientific view is that life is a continuum, and it is very difficult to say where life begins and where it ends.

Before conception, the sperm that takes part in conception is very much alive. So life precedes conception. On the other hand, even after a person dies, the cells in the body do not die, they can stay alive indefinitely in a Petri dish.

But the societies all over the world are pretty much in agreement, when the brain or the heart ceases to function, we consider the person to be dead. Also, there is a universal agreement that at the moment of birth it is a human being.

However, there is no such agreement when humen life begins in the womb, scientists just don’t know. If the fetus is considered human at conception, then the sperm which fertilized the egg also must be considered human.

If that is the case, masturbation should be considered the worst form of genocide, much worse than anything Hitler did. The whole thing is nonsense. We just don’t know when human life begins, that is what the scientists say. We don’t even know when life begins, it is a continuum.

So unless and until scientists tell me that fetus is a human being at conception (and that sperm isn’t a human being), I remain prochoice.
 

SirJosephPorter

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You are still confusing legal status under the law with scientific definitions. Define 'human' (not person), and define 'life'. Scientific definition and legal definition of these two terms are very different things.

Bingo, karrie, you got it. That is precisely why scientists say that we don’t know when life begins. It is very difficult to define life.

No matter what definition one chooses, it leaves out some living things and includes some inanimate objects. If it is that difficult to define life, obviously we cannot say when life begins and when it ends.

So scientifically, it is nonsense to say that life begins at conception. Life by whose definition? How do you define life? That is why correct scientific position is that life is a continuum, with neither beginning nor end.

As to how does one defines human, there we go into philosophy, religion and mysticism. That is even a more murky area than trying to define life.

These are all very complex issues with no clear cut answers. Religious fanatics take a simplistic view of it. To them life begins at conception, because Bible (or at least their version of the Bible) says so.
 

JLM

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"Religious fanatics take a simplistic view of it. To them life begins at conception, because Bible (or at least their version of the Bible) says so."- Who knows? Maybe their opinion is as good as anyone elses. One thing about opinions no one has a corner on them.
 

EagleSmack

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There is good short book called "Dead Man Walking" that is about a nun that works with Death Row inmates. They made a movie about it but the book is great. She uses such common sense about capital punishment. She tells it how it is that both the crimes they committed AND the subsequent execution of the criminal are equally wrong.

Even how she reacts to the victims family who, after watching her on the news every night fighting like crazy to stop this guys execution approached her outside the court room.

"Every night we see you on the news fighting for him. Do you ever think of us? What about our daughter and our pain?'

She was genuinely apologetic and has since set up a victims group to work with victims and families of these crimes.
 

EagleSmack

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"Religious fanatics take a simplistic view of it. To them life begins at conception, because Bible (or at least their version of the Bible) says so."- Who knows? Maybe their opinion is as good as anyone elses. One thing about opinions no one has a corner on them.

Or we can go back to the Seinfeld episode...

Kramer- A pizza isn't a pizza until it comes out of the oven.

Italian Pizza Guy- A pizza is a pizza the minute you puta you fist in the dough.
 

ironsides

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Oh, don't get me wrong, I agree an "eye for an eye" is totally wrong morally speaking. It is just when you are confronted with a horrific crime you want to rip the perpetrators apart. The courts give you a legal way to channel your anger. In most cases it also gives the families of the victim/victims some closure. In States, Countries where there is no death penalty, I wonder what the long term psychological damage is being done to the families who never really get closure? There the ones who I would like to see set the penalty, not some laws written by a bunch of milquetoasts.


 

RanchHand

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Or we can go back to the Seinfeld episode...

Kramer- A pizza isn't a pizza until it comes out of the oven.

Italian Pizza Guy- A pizza is a pizza the minute you puta you fist in the dough.

Suprisingly to me, I now find myself agreeing with SirJosephPorter.
 
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ironsides

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"Religious fanatics take a simplistic view of it. To them life begins at conception, because Bible (or at least their version of the Bible) says so."- Who knows? Maybe their opinion is as good as anyone elses. One thing about opinions no one has a corner on them.


Seems the scientific view can be very simplistic also.
White Paper. When Does Human Life Begin?
Resolving the question of when human life begins is critical for advancing a reasoned public policy debate over abortion and human embryo research. This article considers the current scientific evidence in human embryology and addresses two central questions concerning the beginning of life: 1) in the course of sperm-egg interaction, when is a new cell formed that is distinct from either sperm or egg? and 2) is this new cell a new human organism—i.e., a new human being? Based on universally accepted scientific criteria, a new cell, the human zygote, comes into existence at the moment of sperm-egg fusion, an event that occurs in less than a second. Upon formation, the zygote immediately initiates a complex sequence of events that establish the molecular conditions required for continued embryonic development. The behavior of the zygote is radically unlike that of either sperm or egg separately and is characteristic of a human organism. Thus, the scientific evidence supports the conclusion that a zygote is a human organism and that the life of a new human being commences at a scientifically well defined “moment of conception.” This conclusion is objective, consistent with the factual evidence, and independent of any specific ethical, moral, political, or religious view of human life or of human embryos.

Take the question of religious creationism out of it and the problem maybe very simple.

White Paper. When Does Human Life Begin?


True, no one has a corner on opinions
 

SirJosephPorter

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"Religious fanatics take a simplistic view of it. To them life begins at conception, because Bible (or at least their version of the Bible) says so."- Who knows? Maybe their opinion is as good as anyone elses. One thing about opinions no one has a corner on them.

You are right, JLM, one opinion is as good as another. So whether life begins at conception is a matter of opinion. The argument probably will never be settled.

The problem comes when somebody tries to force his opinion on the rest of the society. Thus if somebody thinks that life begins at conception, fine, they don’t have to get an abortion. However, when they try to pass laws outlawing abortion for everybody, that is when it ceases to be merely personal opinion and becomes a very objectionable, very odious attempt to dictate to the society.

As for capital punishment, sure there is a middle ground; there can be a middle ground for everything. However, not for me. I am opposed to death penalty on principle (the right to life), and so am opposed to death penalty in all circumstances.
 

SirJosephPorter

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I wonder what the long term psychological damage is being done to the families who never really get closure? There the ones who I would like to see set the penalty, not some laws written by a bunch of milquetoasts.

Ironsides, that is just about the worst way to administer justice, that really can lead to a travesty of justice. They do that in Islamic countries.

Under Sharia, if a man commits a murder, the punishment is left to the relatives of the victim (male relatives, of course). The murderer can offer to compensate them by paying them. If they find the offer of money acceptable, matter ends there, the murderer then does not fact any additional penalties.

So of course, if a rich man kills a poor man, usually he can get away with it, by making a handsome payment to the poor man. If a poor man kills a rich man, he is out of luck.

And this is the system of justice you would like to bring to USA? I can just imagine the scenario. A man would like to get rid of his wife of 25 years, he wants to live with this pretty young thing, maybe even make her his trophy wife. He is thinking of divorcing his wife.

But then he gets lucky and his wife is killed (accidentally) by a robber, who was robbing his house. The penalty is left to the man, under your system. Forget about penalty, the man probably would give a handsome reward to the robber.

If you want to bring a type of Sharia to USA, that is your business. All I can say is, no way it is coming to Canada. Here in Ontario, we recently fought tooth and nail attempts to introduce Sharia (the civil aspects only, not the criminal aspects) for Muslims. We are not about to let something like this pollute the Canadian jurisprudence, you can have it in USA.
 
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SirJosephPorter

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Take the question of religious creationism out of it and the problem maybe very simple.

White Paper. When Does Human Life Begin?


Ironsides, when I read your post (post No. 193), my first attitude towards it was ‘sez you’. However, I decided to look up the link given by you, to the Westchester Institute. Now, there is an independent, reputable source for you (yeah, and I am the President of USA).

To start with Westchester Institute is a Catholic think tank. But is it an independent organization? There are some Catholic organizations, which are not lock in step with Pope, which do not follow the official Catholic line blindly, but try to think for themselves.

Is Westchester Institute one of those? Not. The following are some of their policy positions.

Opposed to embryonic stem cell research.
Opposed to morning after pill.
Opposed to testing for Down’s Syndrome in a fetus (their fear is that it may lead to an abortion).

So this is in no way an independent thinking group, it is practically a mouthpiece of the Pope. Why do we need to find out what they say when life begins? We can take it as a given that they will toe the official Papal line, that life begins at conception.

So what you have given is not a well thought out, scientific discourse, but merely parroting the official position of the Catholic church. Sorry, it isn’t worth the paper it is written on.

Show me an article in Nature, Journal of American Medical Association, New England Journal of Medicine, The Lancet or similar. Show me an article in one of these which says that Life begins at conception and I will take it seriously, not utterances by a mouthpiece of the Catholic church.
 

Cannuck

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Why is it not OK for pro-life people to "force their opinions" on people but it is OK for pro-choice people to "force their opinions" on people?

The pro-choice camp always loses credibility when they use this type of ridiculous argument. The pro-life camp believes that a fetus is a human life and deserves the same rights as any other human. There was a time, not long ago, when blacks were not considered as equal and you could do whatever you wanted with the one you owned. To say that the pro-life camp is somehow wrong for trying to "force their opinions" on people, one would logically have to accept that those that fought to abolish slavery were wrong to try and "force their opinions" on others....of course the key word there is logically and logic doesn't usually enter into the abortion debate.

(or the capital punishment debate for that matter)
 

JLM

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Why is it not OK for pro-life people to "force their opinions" on people but it is OK for pro-choice people to "force their opinions" on people?

The pro-choice camp always loses credibility when they use this type of ridiculous argument. The pro-life camp believes that a fetus is a human life and deserves the same rights as any other human. There was a time, not long ago, when blacks were not considered as equal and you could do whatever you wanted with the one you owned. To say that the pro-life camp is somehow wrong for trying to "force their opinions" on people, one would logically have to accept that those that fought to abolish slavery were wrong to try and "force their opinions" on others....of course the key word there is logically and logic doesn't usually enter into the abortion debate.

(or the capital punishment debate for that matter)

I don't know if others have noticed it but in an argument, I generally found that it's the one who's on the "shakiest ground" who seems to get the most agitated. Have others also noticed this?
 

SirJosephPorter

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There was a time, not long ago, when blacks were not considered as equal and you could do whatever you wanted with the one you owned.

I suppose it depends upon one’s point of view. If one is prolife, then abortion is similar to slavery. That somehow makes prolifers feel noble (although it must be mentioned that conservatives, which now are pro life were very much in favour of slavery when it was legal. At the time of civil war, Lincoln was very much a liberal and the confederacy was decidedly conservative in outlook. The same conservatives were also in favour of segregation in the South in the 50s,and fought tooth and nail any attempts at integration by federal government)). After all, what can be more noble that fighting slavery.

On the other hand, if one is prochoice, then anti-abortion is similar to pro-prohibition. Prohibition tried to ban a product (alcohol) which was popular. Prohibition did not stop alcohol consumption, it simply went underground, we had speakeasies.

Similarly, prolifers want to ban a product which is popular, who has always been popular and will continue to be popular (abortion). If prolifers somehow manage to bring Fundamentalist Theocracy to USA and are successful in banning abortion, abortion will simply go underground, will go from qualified doctors to backstreet butchers.

But prolifers, even with the power of a Theocracy at their disposal, will not be able to get rid of abortion. Even today in many Catholic countries such as Brazil, while abortion is illegal, illegal abortion is quite prevalent.
 

SirJosephPorter

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I don't know if others have noticed it but in an argument, I generally found that it's the one who's on the "shakiest ground" who seems to get the most agitated. Have others also noticed this?

you are quite right, JLM. Have you noticed that I never get agitated?