Israel has the right to defend its people. Hamas is Iran's bouncer

Zzarchov

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''the Palestinian Authority blames Hamas for the fighting.'' --- I'm not sure that they do. Just the same, Al-Fatah's Arafat and Hamas were in a civil conflict because both sought power in Palestine. But the idea that PA wants a victory for Israel and the promise of continuous occupation is something nobody in their right mind would believe.

Israel will continue to occupy regardless of how this turns out. But the question is will those in the PA ever be allowed to live in Gaza? Even if Israel made the West Bank and Gaza their own nation, people in the PA who are not Hamas or Islamist (many are secular or christian) would not be allowed to safely be in Gaza. They want to be able to travel around their own country, regardless of who is in charge, thats why they fight.

No sense booting out the old boss to have a worse new boss.

''virtually all Arab states - other than Iran's ally, Syria - and the Palestinian Authority want to see Hamas defeated in Gaza. '' --- Then why were there so many anti Israel protests all over those countries?

Even Syria is really cautious about Hamas. Of course It should be differentiated between "The people of those countries" and "The governments of those countries" as they are by and large despots.

The muslim brotherhood is an international political party that forms the official (or unofficial) opposition to the government in those countries, and do so with popular support.

''the largely Sunni Muslim-led states face a largely Shia Muslim-led competitor for regional hegemony.'' --- Shiia Hezbollah is a threat to those Sunni states? How? It is only a group in Lebanon. It is in no position to threaten any state.

Well now thats silly, if it can wage a war with the most powerful regional military, how on earth is it not a threat to other weaker nations?
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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UK Jewish MP: Israel acting like Nazis in Gaza

Tags:

"My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The present Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploits the continuing guilt from gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians."

DB; This human being is the Zionists worst nightmare, a Jew who refuses to be intimidated by Israeli Nazis. No one can count the Jews murdered by Zionists.DB:
 

darkbeaver

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Right wing media in Canada!!! :laughing3: :laughing5: :laughing6:

Try and imagine how many times that stupid little byte has shown up here. It's origin is the christian fundementalist right in the USA, easily the second most backward rascist political group on the planet. You may not know your right from your left but many of us do.
 

Zzarchov

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Try and imagine how many times that stupid little byte has shown up here. It's origin is the christian fundementalist right in the USA, easily the second most backward rascist political group on the planet. You may not know your right from your left but many of us do.

The Christian Right in the US, while ignorant, is far from the second worst. Have you even listened to your favourite theocratic movement Hamas?

They are the Religious Right wing zealots in Gaza. You have no shortage of support from them.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
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The Christian Right in the US, while ignorant, is far from the second worst. Have you even listened to your favourite theocratic movement Hamas?

They are the Religious Right wing zealots in Gaza. You have no shortage of support from them.

DB did say SECOND worst. That leaves room at the top. Interesting conclusion from a premature start, Zz....
 
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Zzarchov

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DB did say SECOND worst. That leaves room at the top. Interesting conclusion from a premature start, Zz....
He has (on many occassions) claimed zionists are the worst , most racist, backwards group. So the top spot was already full in his world.

If you'd like a source, see about 3/4 of the posts by darkbeaver.
 

Zzarchov

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''Not to mention what European and German news mention about the topic, which usually veer off of what the North American media sources are saying. ''


This is precisely why over half a million people in France, Spain, USA, and England marched against Israel:

Thousands descend on White House to protest Gaza war - Yahoo! News

Tens of thousands march against Israel in France - Expatica

More than 100,000 in pro-Gaza march in Spain - Taiwan News Online

TPF: Thousands of Swiss march against Israeli offensive



If the right wing media in Canada and the USA reported the truth, we would have more such parades.


Now, just logically, thats rather absurd.

For all you know it could be that if German, Spanish and French news reported the truth they would have fewer marches.

One has to consider that news (even in europe) generally tells people what they want to hear. Germany, Spain and France have very, very large muslim contingents and that shades their news as sure as the religious right in the USA shades CNN (which it does, ALOT)
 

Zzarchov

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Assumption on your part? Again? The funny sounds you hear are those of Zzarchof extracting his foot from his mouth while still attempting to run at full speed ahead.

There is no pleasing you wolf. You are shown with clear evidence you are wrong on several occassions (for instance when I said Palestine used Parallel voting and you came back that I was lying because proportional representation was only half of the election..aka parallel voting's textbook definition), and now, you are honestly,

Honestly,

Trying to claim darkbeaver doesn't think Zionists are the most racist, backwards people on the planet.

Have you read any of this thread?

Alot of people have a hard time admitting they are wrong, most just stop speaking on the matter and move on..

You, you seem to keep lashing out on the subject hoping in some kind of Ann Coulter way that repeating the topic will change things.
 

lone wolf

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Nov 25, 2006
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There is no pleasing you wolf. You are shown with clear evidence you are wrong on several occassions (for instance when I said Palestine used Parallel voting and you came back that I was lying because proportional representation was only half of the election..aka parallel voting's textbook definition), and now, you are honestly,

Honestly,

Trying to claim darkbeaver doesn't think Zionists are the most racist, backwards people on the planet.

Have you read any of this thread?

Alot of people have a hard time admitting they are wrong, most just stop speaking on the matter and move on..

You, you seem to keep lashing out on the subject hoping in some kind of Ann Coulter way that repeating the topic will change things.

To be fair (Hmm ... whose line is that?) one doesn't jump to conclusions or make assumptions based on partial statements. Just stop speaking. Maintain that *ahem* dignity....:lol:

If you insist ... the Cage awaits the pleasure of your company....
 

Socrates the Greek

I Remember them....
Apr 15, 2006
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Saturday January 17, 2009
Israel: Gaza war in 'final act'

Israel said its Gaza offensive could be "in the final act" on Friday and sent envoys to discuss truce terms after Hamas made a ceasefire offer to end three weeks of fighting that has killed more than 1,100 Palestinians.
 

gopher

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~~ Iran's alleged offer of one million for the assassination of Mubarak ~~

Since no one offered any evidence of this lie, I assume you from the far right on this forum are conceding that this is mythical innuendo that has no basis in reality.

~~ {Hezbollah} '' how on earth is it not a threat to other weaker nations? ''

Hezbollah's constitution does not mention any aim to create a multi-national Muslim state. It's aims are restricted to socio-political-defense efforts in Lebanon.

~~ The Christian Right in the US, while ignorant, is far from the second worst. ~~

That's your opinion. Certainly not mine. After all, that type of thinking is what inspired Bush to invade Iraq in an unprovoked attack and resulted in the death of over one million Iraqis. I don't know of any Muslim fanatical group that has duplicated anything like that in the modern era.

~~ if German, Spanish and French news reported the truth they would have fewer marches.~~

I watch Deutsche Welle and France 2 occasionally. Their reporting is quite good. Definitely far better than the treacherous far right media in the USA. That explains why people of those countries march against what they call ''Zionazis'' and their sponsors in Washington DC.


One last issue from the article:

'' Iran and its allies have put forward the banners of jihad and "resistance." Their platform includes Islamist revolution in every country''


We have discussed on this forum enough times the idea that Islamist revolution is a Sunni ideal and that it is in conflict with Shiiaism. Why Shiia Iran would want to promote the ideals of its own enemies is a total absurdity. You have to question the sanity of anyone who would dare to mention such a moronic notion that is so readily refutable through the preponderance of evidence to the contrary. This idea destroys the article's credibility.
 

gopher

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The NCRI is a dissident group and the students do not represent the government. Evidently, the article does not purport to say that Ahmadinejad's government has called for that assassination. But you have succeeded in clarifying that.

By the way, the Bassij are probably the world's biggest opponents of the fanatical Sunni Taliban. Again, this gives the lie to the notion that Iran wants to arm and support its enemies. Such a claim simply has no logic or basis.
 

Cannuck

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"Such student organizations are responding to a call by the mullahs' supreme leader Ali Khamenei, who on Sunday urged Muslim nations to mobilize against Israel."

From Wikipedia

"Ali Hoseyni Khāmene’i (help·info) (علی حسینی خامنه*ای, born 17 July 1939), also known as Ali Khamenei,[4] is an Iranian politician and cleric. He has been Supreme Leader of Iran since 1989 and before that was president of Iran from 1981 to 1989. He has been described as one of only three people having "defining influences" on the Islamic Republic of Iran.[5][6]"


You asked for evidence. I have given you evidence. I, in no way, expect you to accept this evidence since you have shown a complete unwillingness to accept anything that doesn't suit your view of the world. That is OK. The post wasn't really meant for you anyway.
 
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earth_as_one

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Saturday January 17, 2009
Israel: Gaza war in 'final act'

Israel said its Gaza offensive could be "in the final act" on Friday and sent envoys to discuss truce terms after Hamas made a ceasefire offer to end three weeks of fighting that has killed more than 1,100 Palestinians.

I doubt Hamas will stop fighting while Israel maintains its military presence in Gaza and continues restricting humanitarian food aid from reaching Gaza's 1.5 million residents.

Israel plans ceasefire as tank fire kills two boys at UN school - but Hamas vows to fight on

By Daily Mail Reporter
Last updated at 3:00 PM on 17th January 2009


Israel is planning to halt its Gaza offensive without any agreement with Hamas, a senior Israeli official has said today, as Hamas vowed to fight on.

The news came after two young boys were killed last night at a UN school following Israeli tank fire.


The country's Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is expected to address the nation following a security cabinet meeting this evening.



Palestinian children survey the damage after Israeli tank fire killed two boys at a UN-run school last night. Israel is now said to be planning a ceasefire



A senior official, who has asked not to be named, said: 'The goal is to announce, subject to cabinet approval, a suspension of military activities because we believe our goals have been attained.'


'There is no agreement with Hamas, and it is clear that if Hamas fires against Israeli soldiers or if rocket fire into Israel continues, Israel will reserve the right to act,' the official said.


Israel plans ceasefire as tank fire kills two boys at UN school - but Hamas vows to fight on | Mail Online

Also keep in mind this current round of violence was initiated by Israel when they violated their November 4, 2008 ceasefire agreement with Hamas:
YouTube - Israel comfirm that Hamas doesn't broke the truce

Here is video which analyzes claims about using "human shields" in this conflict:
YouTube - In Gaza Conflict - Which Side Is Using Human Shields?

If Hamas is using human shields, then so did Winston Churchill:

Nearly seventy years ago, in the course of World War II, a heinous crime was committed in the city of Leningrad. For more than a thousand days, a gang of extremists called “the Red Army” held the millions of the town’s inhabitants hostage and provoked retaliation from the German Wehrmacht from inside the population centers. The Germans had no alternative but to bomb and shell the population and to impose a total blockade, which caused the death of hundreds of thousands.

Some time before that, a similar crime was committed in England. The Churchill gang hid among the population of London, misusing the millions of citizens as a human shield. The Germans were compelled to send their Luftwaffe and reluctantly reduce the city to ruins. They called it the Blitz.


[FONT=georgia,palatino]This is the description that would now appear in the history books – if the Germans had won the war.[/FONT]

[FONT=georgia,palatino]Absurd? No more than the daily descriptions in our media, which are being repeated ad nauseam: the Hamas terrorists use the inhabitants of Gaza as “hostages” and exploit the women and children as “human shields”, they leave us no alternative but to carry out massive bombardments, in which, to our deep sorrow, thousands of women, children and unarmed men are killed and injured....[/FONT]

[FONT=georgia,palatino]An example of this [propaganda] process surrounds the most shocking atrocity of this war so far: the shelling of the UN Fakhura school in Jabaliya refugee camp. [/FONT]

[FONT=georgia,palatino]Immediately after the incident became known throughout the world, the army “revealed” that Hamas fighters had been firing mortars from near the school entrance. As proof they released an aerial photo which indeed showed the school and the mortar. But within a short time the official army liar had to admit that the photo was more than a year old. In brief: a falsification.[/FONT]

[FONT=georgia,palatino]Later the official liar claimed that “our soldiers were shot at from inside the school”. Barely a day passed before the army had to admit to UN personnel that that was a lie, too. Nobody had shot from inside the school, no Hamas fighters were inside the school, which was full of terrified refugees.[/FONT]

[FONT=georgia,palatino]But the admission made hardly any difference anymore. By that time, the Israeli public was completely convinced that “they shot from inside the school”, and TV announcers stated this as a simple fact.[/FONT]

Now they say that the attack on the school was a "mistake." It wasn't the target at all, they say; some shells firing at an entirely different target went astray. This, after declaring for days on end, in great -- if mendacious -- detail, that they were absolutely justified in, er, targeting the school. By next week, the Israelis -- and their innumerable American cheerleaders -- will be claiming that the school never existed.

[FONT=georgia,palatino]So it went with the other atrocities. Every baby metamorphosed, in the act of dying, into a Hamas terrorist. Every bombed mosque instantly became a Hamas base, every apartment building an arms cache, every school a terror command post, every civilian government building a “symbol of Hamas rule”. Thus the Israeli army retained its purity as the “most moral army in the world”.[/FONT]

[FONT=georgia,palatino]THE TRUTH is that the atrocities are a direct result of the war plan. This reflects the personality of Ehud Barak – a man whose way of thinking and actions are clear evidence of what is called “moral insanity”, a sociopathic disorder.

[FONT=georgia,palatino]The real aim (apart from gaining seats in the coming elections) is to terminate the rule of Hamas in the Gaza Strip. In the imagination of the planners, Hamas is an invader which has gained control of a foreign country. The reality is, of course, entirely different...[/FONT]

[FONT=georgia,palatino]A top priority for the [war] planners was the need to minimize casualties among the soldiers, knowing that the mood of a large part of the pro-war public would change if reports of such casualties came in. That is what happened in Lebanon Wars I and II.[/FONT]

[FONT=georgia,palatino]This consideration played an especially important role because the entire war is a part of the election campaign. Ehud Barak, who gained in the polls in the first days of the war, knew that his ratings would collapse if pictures of dead soldiers filled the TV screens.[/FONT]

[FONT=georgia,palatino]Therefore, a new doctrine was applied: to avoid losses among our soldiers by the total destruction of everything in their path. The planners were not only ready to kill 80 Palestinians to save one Israeli soldier, as has happened, but also 800. The avoidance of casualties on our side is the overriding commandment, which is causing record numbers of civilian casualties on the other side....[/FONT]

[FONT=georgia,palatino]That means the conscious choice of an especially cruel kind of warfare – and that has been its Achilles heel.[/FONT]

[FONT=georgia,palatino]A person without imagination, like Barak (his election slogan: “Not a Nice Guy, but a Leader”) cannot imagine how decent people around the world react to actions like the killing of whole extended families, the destruction of houses over the heads of their inhabitants, the rows of boys and girls in white shrouds ready for burial, the reports about people bleeding to death over days because ambulances are not allowed to reach them, the killing of doctors and medics on their way to save lives, the killing of UN drivers bringing in food. The pictures of the hospitals, with the dead, the dying and the injured lying together on the floor for lack of space, have shocked the world. No argument has any force next to an image of a wounded little girl lying on the floor, twisting with pain and crying out: “Mama! Mama!”[/FONT]

[FONT=georgia,palatino]The planners thought that they could stop the world from seeing these images by forcibly preventing press coverage...But in a modern war, such a sterile manufactured view cannot completely exclude all others – the cameras are inside the strip, in the middle of the hell, and cannot be controlled. Aljazeera broadcasts the pictures around the clock and reaches every home....[/FONT]

[FONT=georgia,palatino]People with moral insanity cannot really understand the motives of normal people and must guess their reactions. “How many divisions has the Pope?” Stalin sneered. “How many divisions have people of conscience?” Ehud Barak may well be asking.[/FONT]

[FONT=georgia,palatino]As it turns out, they do have some. Not numerous. Not very quick to react. Not very strong and organized. But at a certain moment, when the atrocities overflow and masses of protesters come together, that can decide a war.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
Debunking the "Human Shield" Myth

Shame! Canada's Singular Support of Israel's Crimes at the United Nations Human Rights Commission
by C. L. Cook
I
t begins with the lies told a supine and disinterested populace; big lies are best history advises, if you are to commit big crimes. From the lie come the policies, rationalized by the lie, and codified by the lie's repetition. Tell a lie often enough and it becomes truth we're informed.

But there comes a point where the lies cannot bear the light of truth, and Canada is coming to just such an unearthing of the ugly truth behind its present masters' ethical bankruptcy.

Monday January 12, 2009 saw Canada's government, as represented by Stephen Harper's minority Tories, stand in defense of the mighty in the form of Israel's military machine, currently chewing up the near defenseless Palestinians trapped in Gaza.







True to form, Canada's monopolist media uttered hardly a word about this disgraceful abrogation of the precepts of human rights, often espoused as the founding principles of Canada. For millions of Canadians, the news of what "their" country has come to represent is yet not known.

The truth of its cowardly refusal to condemn, as did 33 other members of the U.N. Human Rights Commission, Israel's grotesque and wanton slaughter of the innocents of Gaza and the rest of remnant Palestine in their hundreds, maiming thousands more, and rendering tens of thousands shelterless in the teeth of winter brings an end to the comfortable lie: Canada cares about human dignity and the rights accorded to humans as basic principles, as so ceremoniously signed by it in declaration after declaration at the United Nations.

On January 12, 2009, Canada stood alone among the 47 nations of the U.N.H.R.C., 33 of those desperate to see an end to Israel's bombardment of the trapped population of the Gaza Strip, in opposition to that body's resolution of condemnation of Israel's actions these last terrible weeks.

Surrounded by eight meter high walls on three sides, and the deep blue sea on the fourth, Palestinians, civilians and officials of the hated Hamas government alike, have no place of refuge to run to within the oldest refugee camp in the world. Overhead, helicopter gunships, aerial drones, and F-16 fighter jets wheel and turn, spitting fire and steel into the single-most densely peopled area on the planet.

Watching the horror recorded through telephoto lenses from the safety of the Israeli-claimed territory beyond the concrete and razor wire girding Gaza, the Canadian government still assumes the Israeli Defense Force line, which states: Those being slaughtered pose an existential threat to the survival of Israel.

And so, the slaughter must not be halted, nor even criticized for the abomination it clearly is. Is there a single word in the entirety of the english lexicon to describe this craven disregard of humanity and abandonment of morality?

Obscenity hardly describes it fully, but obscene it certainly is.​

Standing in for Israel and the United States, neither of which having a seat on the human rights commission, Canada did its yeoman service to the two most profligate abusers of human rights and dignity, as it did during the equally criminal destruction of southern Lebanon in 2006. Like that not prosecuted war crime, Israel is deploying both banned and experimental weapons against the civilians in Gaza. Today, (Jan. 14, 2009) reports coming from the region estimate more than 1,000 dead, with fully a third of those being children.

This despicable and savage campaign, unabashedly supported by Canada's quisling Harper minority government, (as was the outrage in Lebanon in 2006) is a stain on Canada's hard won respect on the world stage as a champion for human rights and justice. It brings this nation down to the sub-moral level of "great friends" Israel, and its primary sponsor and weapons supplier the United States of America; both criminals whose depravity is without historical precedent.

For Canadians, the cowardly and grim distinction Monday's vote represents should serve as a moment of national reflection, a time for we as a people comprised of peoples from the world over to consider what kind of country we wish to create in this already too bloody young 21st Century. It is, as Barak Obama might say, a much needed "teaching moment" for a country that has lost its way, mired in one war of aggression and occupation, and supporting two others.


Shame! Canada's Singular Support of Israel's Crimes - Pacific Free Press Opinion
 
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gopher

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''I have given you evidence.''

Try again. Show me where he offered one million for the assassination of Mubarak.

Your word alone proves nothing. Let's have proof.
 

Cannuck

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''I have given you evidence.''

Try again. Show me where he offered one million for the assassination of Mubarak.

Your word alone proves nothing. Let's have proof.

First you need to figure out the difference between evidence and proof. You didn't ask for proof. You asked for evidence. That is what I gave you. A thank you should be in order. After that, we can talk about proof.
 

Zzarchov

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You know..technically he is right. Even circumstantial evidence is still evidence, its just not proof.

Bravo, *clap clap*