Well in that case I will only continue this conversation in Latin.
Good day to you, sir.
Israel pounds Gaza, death toll well over 100 and climbing
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Well in that case I will only continue this conversation in Latin.
Good day to you, sir.
Guess it depends on your yesterday.
Quote:
In response, 80 Kassam rockets, Grad-model Katyushas and mortar shells pounded southern Israel throughout the day. One rocket scored a direct hit on an apartment building in Netivot, killing 58-year-old Beber Vaknin and wounding several others.
So if we ask: How many Israeli's have been killed by home made rockets, military rockets, home made mortar's, military manufactured mortars, RPG's, home made anti-personnel devices, military manufactured anti-personnel devices, rifle/pistol/machine gun fire, pipe bombs, suicide bomber bombs and remote control bombs originating/controlled or fired from the Gaza then what numbers of dead Israeli's do we get ?
Do they get partial points for maiming and wounding?
Why try to make it something it's not?
Why try to to rig the stat's?
Both sides of this horrible and unfortunate fight are suffering major casualties.
And it looks like there will be no end in sight until one side wipes out the other.
And that is the real crime in all this.
So much for the brotherhood of mankind.
Bush said get rid of the thugs from Gaza then there will be peace.
Since the people of Gaza are unwilling to get rid of the terrorist thugs that occupy where they live,then Israel will have to do the job.
Since the people of Gaza are unwilling to get rid of the terrorist thugs that occupy where they live,then Israel will have to do the job.
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Bush said get rid of the thugs from Gaza then there will be peace.
Since the people of Gaza are unwilling to get rid of the terrorist thugs that occupy where they live,then Israel will have to do the job.
It looks very selective. Can Israeli jets distinguish between an armed terrorist and a kid playing stickball? It doesn't matter what world you're from, two wrongs don't make a right. Are the people in Gaza unwilling ... or unable. That would be like saying you can clean up the Jane-Steeles corridor by killing everyone who lives there.
Are you talking about the kids that play stickball while they are studying suicide bombing theory?
Are you talking about the kids that throw rock at the police because they are ordered too by the terrorist thugs?
Are you talking about the kids whose parents were killed by the hamas terrorist thugs because they asked them to go?
Those kids?
Are you talking about the kids that throw rock at the police because they are ordered too by the terrorist thugs?
Are you talking about the kids whose parents were killed by the hamas terrorist thugs because they asked them to go?
Those kids?
Proportiante responses do nothing but cause unnecessary suffering.
A response should be so overwhelming as to actually solve something, or not take place at all.
A proportianate response is murder, its killing someone for revenge rather than to try and stop more deaths.
If the situation requires a response, go all out and try and solve it. If you don't think you can solve it, don't respond at all.
In this case the government of Gaza (including police officers) are legitimate targets because they are agents of the elected government that is involved in a war.
TIME TO RE-VISIT AN IMPORTANT HISTORICAL LETTER:
New York Times, December 4, 1948
Albert Eistein's Letter to New York Times Dec. 4, 1948 - New Palestine Party - link
TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:
New Palestine Party Visit of Menachem Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed
Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.
The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Beginâs political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.
Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Beginâs behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.
The public avowals of Beginâs party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.
Attack on Arab Village
A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants÷240 men, women, and children÷and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.
The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.
Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.
During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.
The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.
Discrepancies Seen
The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a "Leader State" is the goal.
In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Beginâs efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.
The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.
ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN, M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SEYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D. MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH, LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGIS, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SHOENBERG, SAMUEL SHUMAN, M. SINGER, IRMA WOLFE, STEFAN WOLFE.
New York, Dec. 2, 1948
New York Times, December 4, 1948
Albert Eistein's Letter to New York Times Dec. 4, 1948 - New Palestine Party - link
TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:
New Palestine Party Visit of Menachem Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed
Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.
The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Beginâs political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.
Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Beginâs behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.
The public avowals of Beginâs party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.
Attack on Arab Village
A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants÷240 men, women, and children÷and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.
The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.
Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.
During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.
The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.
Discrepancies Seen
The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a "Leader State" is the goal.
In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Beginâs efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.
The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.
ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN, M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SEYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D. MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH, LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGIS, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SHOENBERG, SAMUEL SHUMAN, M. SINGER, IRMA WOLFE, STEFAN WOLFE.
New York, Dec. 2, 1948
Yesterday a single Israeli died from a Hamas rocket attack, but that death occured in response to Israel's attack yesterday which killed more than 200 Gazans. I would describe killing one person in response to attacks which killed more than 200 as restrained.
From the time Hamas agreed to a truce six months ago until Israel started bombing Gaza yesterday, neither Hamas nor any of the other militant group in Gaza caused a single Israeli death by any means. Is that clear enough?
If you don't believe me, please post a list of Israeli casualties which occured between the time Hamas agreed to a truce and when Israel started killing Gazans enmasse yesterday.
Now some Israelis were shocked and terrorized by the rockets. A few were even injured, but how would you describe killing 200 people in response to attacks which never killed a single person? How would you describe starving 1.5 million people because you don't like the government they elected?
I've been following the truce carefully and as far as I know, every rocket fired by Hamas during the "truce" was in response to an Israeli attack in Gaza which killed someone.
Other militant groups besides Hamas did fire rockets in response to attacks carried out West Bank against their members, but Hamas did not. Israel claims that their ceasefire agreement didn't extend to the West Bank. But the other militant groups in Gaza were clear from the beginning that they would respond to Israeli attacks on their members anywhere with rocket attacks.
In November, Israel discovered a Hamas tunnel being dug toward Israel. Gaza literally has hundreds of tunnels going to Egypt for smuggling purposes, but a tunnel going toward Israel would not be for smuggling. Israel had good reason to believe the tunnel's intended purpose was offensive and hostile. So they sent commandos into Gaza to blow it up. Half a dozen Hamas members were killed during that raid. In response Hamas fired a barrage of rockets back at Israel which killed no one.
Hamas did abide by the terms of the ceasefire until their response to the November Israeli raid into Gaza to blow up their offensive tunnel. Their tunnel was hostile, but not a ceasefire violation. Israel's raid was a ceasefire violation, but probably justified.
Israel never opened the borders or stopped killing Gazans as per the terms of the ceasefire. Israeli never agreed to stop its attacks against militants in the West Bank, but they knew those attacks would provoke a response from militant groups in Gaza.
Other militant groups in Gaza violated the ceasefire when they fired rockets into Israel in response to attacks on their members in the West Bank. But they said from the beginning they would react that way.
If Israel really wanted peace, they would have refrained from assassinating militants in the West Bank and opened up Gaza's borders to the free flow of goods and medicine. But instead they kept the borders closed and manipulated the situation by provoking militant rocket attacks.
The conclusion I come to is that everything Israel has done since Hamas was democratically elected has been designed to remove Hamas from power. They armed and financed Fatah in their failed coup attempt. They tried unsuccessfully to starve Gazans into rebelling against Hamas. Now they manipulated a ceasefire into justifying an invasion to remove Hamas by force. I suspect this latest effort to remove Hamas will be as successful as the others.
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And Hamas never kept rockets from being fired into Israel.
Hamas is itching for a fight, its starting a fight, its getting one and your problem seems to be that its losing.
If it doesn't want to be on the receiving end of Israeli firepower, maybe it shouldn't use violence to try and solve its problems.
Hamas is itching for a fight, its starting a fight, its getting one and your problem seems to be that its losing.
If it doesn't want to be on the receiving end of Israeli firepower, maybe it shouldn't use violence to try and solve its problems.
It doesn't matter. Every rocket that is fired is fired with the intent to kill. Every rocket that is fired has the potential to be successful in killing. Every rocket that is fired may as well have killed.
How's that for clear? Take a swing at me and I'm gonna pop you. I don't care if you missed. That's pretty fundamental.
Funny how you keep stipulating this "since the truce began" qualifier. No one was killed during the truce. Well let me just bow down to Hamas.
Follow a little closer next time. We already had this discussion. If you wish I'll look it up and post the link.
Right. Because Hamas doesn't control Gaza. Uh huh.
Not true, lots of rockets were fired in the interim. O wait....I forgot, but not by Hamas, right? They were, uh, private sector rockets.
Again not true. The border was opened numerous times, consistently followed by rocket fire.
O, well, Israel said from the beginning it would respond with overwhelming force if rocket fire did not cease this week. So what are you on about? They're just doing what they said they would do. That makes it OK according to you.
Why does overwhelming force from Israel always involve non-combatants on the other side of the fence? Even a suicide bomber - the poor man's smart bomb - can be selective. F-16s and missiles aren't....
Arafat isn't my "hero". He was a corrupt killer who later in life sold out the Palestian people and lined his pockets with aid money. Abbas literally picked up where Arafat left off. That was a pretty lame attempt to discredit me.
Ghandi, Martin Luther King Jr and Nelson Mandela are people I admire and wish to emulate.
Regarding the "Hamas coup" story, some things don't add up.
For example explain this:
Elliot Abrams’ uncivil war
Is the Bush administration violating the law in an effort to provoke a Palestinian civil war?
Deputy National Security Advisor, Elliott Abrams — who Newsweek recently described as “the last neocon standing” — has had it about for some months now that the U.S. is not only not interested in dealing with Hamas, it is working to ensure its failure. In the immediate aftermath of the Hamas elections, last January, Abrams greeted a group of Palestinian businessmen in his White House office with talk of a “hard coup” against the newly-elected Hamas government — the violent overthrow of their leadership with arms supplied by the United States. While the businessmen were shocked, Abrams was adamant — the U.S. had to support Fatah with guns, ammunition and training, so that they could fight Hamas for control of the Palestinian government.
While those closest to him now concede the Abrams’ words were issued in a moment of frustration, the “hard coup” talk was hardly just talk. Over the last twelve months, the United States has supplied guns, ammunition and training to Palestinian Fatah activists to take on Hamas in the streets of Gaza and the West Bank. A large number of Fatah activists have been trained and “graduated” from two camps — one in Ramallah and one in Jericho. The supplies of rifles and ammunition, which started as a mere trickle, has now become a torrent (Haaretz reports the U.S. has designated an astounding $86.4 million for Abu Mazen’s security detail), and while the program has gone largely without notice in the American press, it is openly talked about and commented on in the Arab media — and in Israel. Thousands of rifles and bullets have been poring into Gaza and the West Bank from Egypt and Jordan, the administration’s designated allies in the program....
Conflicts Forum » Elliot Abrams’ uncivil war
Sounds to me like the US was trying to initiate a coup to me. Then there is this information:
The Middle East
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and President George W. Bush, whose secret Palestinian intervention backfired in a big way. Photo illustration by Chris Mueller; left, by Debbie Hill/Sipa Press; right, by Issam Rimawi/ApaImages/Polaris; background by Ibraheem Abu Mustafa/Reuters/Corbis.
The Gaza Bombshell
After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever.
by David Rose April 2008
...Some sources call the scheme “Iran-contra 2.0,” recalling that Abrams was convicted (and later pardoned) for withholding information from Congress during the original Iran-contra scandal under President Reagan. There are echoes of other past misadventures as well: the C.I.A.’s 1953 ouster of an elected prime minister in Iran, which set the stage for the 1979 Islamic revolution there; the aborted 1961 Bay of Pigs invasion, which gave Fidel Castro an excuse to solidify his hold on Cuba; and the contemporary tragedy in Iraq.
Within the Bush administration, the Palestinian policy set off a furious debate. One of its critics is David Wurmser, the avowed neoconservative, who resigned as Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief Middle East adviser in July 2007, a month after the Gaza coup.
Wurmser accuses the Bush administration of “engaging in a dirty war in an effort to provide a corrupt dictatorship [led by Abbas] with victory.” He believes that Hamas had no intention of taking Gaza until Fatah forced its hand. “It looks to me that what happened wasn’t so much a coup by Hamas but an attempted coup by Fatah that was pre-empted before it could happen,” Wurmser says.
The botched plan has rendered the dream of Middle East peace more remote than ever, but what really galls neocons such as Wurmser is the hypocrisy it exposed. “There is a stunning disconnect between the president’s call for Middle East democracy and this policy,” he says. “It directly contradicts it.”...
The Gaza Bombshell: Politics & Power: vanityfair.com
Sure smells like US sponsored coup to me.
Once again where is the backing of the two aggressors?
Israel is backed by the US who has a bigger Jewish community to lobby Washington to support its cause.
Hamas ( or the Arab worlds ) is backed by Russia or the former Soviet block that has many Muslim countries and communities to lobby for its side of the war and cause.
The Bombs and child killing will NOT stop until the US and Russia or the former Soviet block stop feeding the two side weapons and funding. Furthermore diplomatic pressure has to be honestly put to stop this war.
If we are truly from one mother then we are all brothers and sisters but we are killing each other in the name of "religion"..
Israel is backed by the US who has a bigger Jewish community to lobby Washington to support its cause.
Hamas ( or the Arab worlds ) is backed by Russia or the former Soviet block that has many Muslim countries and communities to lobby for its side of the war and cause.
The Bombs and child killing will NOT stop until the US and Russia or the former Soviet block stop feeding the two side weapons and funding. Furthermore diplomatic pressure has to be honestly put to stop this war.
If we are truly from one mother then we are all brothers and sisters but we are killing each other in the name of "religion"..
Yes, they do attempt to be selective with when they fire rockets:
Lets let BBC, who is known for a very pro-palestinian stance (even still its a fairly unbiased news source compared to 99.9% of those out there)
Although they rarely kill, they are designed to do so, are indiscriminate, and have on occasion been fired at times coinciding with children's journeys to school.
And lets be clear here, these weapons are fired to kill people. This isn't "I was an impared driver, I didn't mean to kill anyone, you can't prove it"
This is "I fired a gun at you and missed". You try that and see how that whole "Prove I wasn't firing a gun at you in celebration" thing works out.
Hamas didn't live up to the truce, at best it may not have had the manpower to stop others from firing the rockets, never the less they didn't live up to their end. Hamas is the duly elected government and if they can't keep people from starting a war in their name in their country then they should stand down as a government.
Of course, they don't really WANT peace anyways, they have repeatedly stated that. Its part of their publicly stated mission statement.
Hamas' charter calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic State in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
There is no room for long term peace with that organization without either change of their long term goals to not include the destruction of Israel, or a renouncing of violence as a mean to achieve those ends.
I mean seriously, Hamas has a very specific purpose and that purpose is not an independant democratic palestine free from occupation, its an Islamic state built upon the ashes of Israel. Their whole existance is based upon waging a war with Israel.
Sooner or later Hamas and Israel have to duke it out until one falls, that is the direct purpose of Hamas. If it can be finished now, finish it.