They Were Not Shrewd Enough!!

[Adriatik]

For those who support the Conservatives, today can be considered a victory but only because the coalition miscalculated one thing...

They were definitely not shrewd about it.

If they would have well calculated their actions, they probably would have prevailed.

Here's what should have been done:

1- As soon as the Conservatives proposed their fall update, first, the NDP, Liberals and Bloc Québécois should have kept their cool and quietly debate the proposed bill. More importantly, they should have kept their mouths shut about their frustration...

2- Then they should have pretended to support the bill and agree to vote on it a few day later. Again, they should have kept their mouths shut but to the media this time.

If they would have done these first 2 things, not the Conservatives nor the media would have known that they we're against the proposal.

3- The 3 opposition parties should have met SECRETLY behind closed doors to discuss the formation of the coalition and plans to vote against the proposed fall update while choosing a leader. Again, keeping their mouths shut about their plans to the media.

4- On the day of the vote, then the 3 opposition parties should have come out in force to vote against the Conservatives' bill thus defeating the government.

The Conservatives would have been caught by surprise and could not have done anything to avoid their defeat. Then the media would have obviously been notified of a surprise Government defeat.

5- They should have then signed the coalition deal and sent it urgently to the GG.

These 5 steps would have ensured coaliton victory.

Harper could not have cheated by asking for a prorogation and Michaelle Jean would have surely granted power of the house to the coaliton in order avoid another costy election after only 7 weeks.

Now that is how things should have been done...

 

[Adriatik]

We are talking about people at the best of time that rarely speak to each other , so how would this have been orchestrated?


Just an observation

rgs
scratch

Exactly my point, they weren't shrewd enough...

 

[Adriatik]

They just weren't smart enough and didn't have a leader....A good leader would have been smart enough to orchestrate something similar to what I describe, if not better...

 

[Lester]

Great, more plotting and scheming. Just what Canada needs. Anywho Iwas thinking of the possibility if this wasn't some grand plot- Take a peice of legislation thats not really that important to anyone, like the political subsidy and use it to bait your opposition, to which, this legislation is very important. Outrage ensues, unholy alliances are formed, and it all comes together in a wild grab for power. The publics choked at the coalition and now Harpers approval rating has shot up to 44% -majority territory and the GG will call an Election in January.

 

[Adriatik]

Great, more plotting and scheming. Just what Canada needs. Anywho Iwas thinking of the possibility if this wasn't some grand plot- Take a peice of legislation thats not really that important to anyone, like the political subsidy and use it to bait your opposition, to which, this legislation is very important. Outrage ensues, unholy alliances are formed, and it all comes together in a wild grab for power. The publics choked at the coalition and now Harpers approval rating has shot up to 44% -majority territory and the GG will call an Election in January.

I'm sorry but that's not plotting and scheming, it's what we call politics..

And I beg to differ on the election you think will happen in January.. Guess what? In January, we'll still will have an economy to stimulate and it will be a more crucial time than ever for parliament to function. If an election is called, you think that Canadians can wait that long? A campaign will last at least a month or 2.. Canadians can't wait until March for things to get done.

At this point, Harper will have no choice to seek support from the opposition... If his budget has one ounce of partisan right-wing ideology tied to it, forget it... The opposition will never support it.

I think the message is clear, either Harper's government compromises or gets defeated. Simple..

I can't wait to see what he'll choose...

 

[JLM]

You're getting smarter, Adriatik.

 

[Scott Free]

Now that is how things should have been done...

Or the GG could have just done her job properly.

She allowed Harper to prorogue because he was unpopular - she allowed him to keep power! Her job is to prevent that not play king maker.

Now Harper is gaining support because Canadians don't understand the system.

 

[Walter]

At this point, Harper will have no choice to seek support from the opposition... If his budget has one ounce of partisan right-wing ideology tied to it, forget it... The opposition will never support it.

If the opposition doesn't support him the electorate will.

 

[Scott Free]

If the opposition doesn't support him the electorate will.

Only if they're morons.

 

[lone wolf]

Harper is living proof that all one needs to win are lie, cheat, steal and deny. Honour and truth mean nothing. My grand daughter is learning things right (in a Harper sort of way) When I caught her bending the rules in Snakes and Ladders, she told me it was okay to cheat if she didn't get caught because then she could be a Prime Minister.

 

[Walter]

Only if they're morons.

New polls show huge Tory gains:
Ipsos: CPC 46, LPC 23, NDP 13, BQ 9, GPC 8
Ekos: CPC 44, LPC 24, NDP 15, BQ 9, GPC 8
Compas: 72% biz leaders see worse economy under Dion coalition
CPC support from those with 'moron' the ball.

 

[lone wolf]

Wonder what polls would have shown in 1938 Germany....

 

[Dixie Cup]

Point Missed

It baffles me how anyone could have taken this coalition seriously. Please, tell me how, without consultation with the Provinces, businesses, the auto industry, etc., etc., could ANY government come up with a so-called "stimulous" package in such a short period of time AND ensure it works the way we want it to? Yeah, we can give a billion or so to the auto/forestry sectors, but who's going to buy the cars and the wood?? It's a world-wide problem, not just a "Canadian" problem. Whatever "stimulous" package is created, it must be well thought out. Just throwing money at it is simply stupid.

Harper was totally wrong when introducing cuts to the political parties. It may well have to be done at some point, (or not) but now isn't the time to introduce something so blatently divisive. Fortunately, he's backed off that roller coaster.

As for civil servants (and politicians alike), they need to tighten their belts so I personally didn't have a problem freezing their wages for a while until there is some resolution to our economic problems. But, of course, if they don't want their wages frozen, they could possibly look forward to what many of us in the private sector are facing....lay offs!! I'd rather have a wage freeze and a job thank you! But that's just me.

There's a lot of emotion going on and people simply must step-back and take a deep breath and think rationally. We WILL get through this but not by political posturing and ignorant comments.

The fact of the matter is, we ALL have to do our part. The "bail outs" should be for those who are seriously affected through no fault of their own and not for those who have spent foolishly (i.e. big whopping CEO salaries etc.).

JMO

 

[Dixie Cup]

Now Harper is gaining support because Canadians don't understand the system.[/quote]

Now THAT's an ignorant statement.

JMO

 

[Scott Free]

New polls show huge Tory gains:
Ipsos: CPC 46, LPC 23, NDP 13, BQ 9, GPC 8
Ekos: CPC 44, LPC 24, NDP 15, BQ 9, GPC 8
Compas: 72% biz leaders see worse economy under Dion coalition
CPC support from those with 'moron' the ball.

So what?

Most people are morons.

I know that don't you?

 

[Trex]

For those who support the Conservatives, today can be considered a victory but only because the coalition miscalculated one thing...

They were definitely not shrewd about it.

If they would have well calculated their actions, they probably would have prevailed.

Here's what should have been done:

1- As soon as the Conservatives proposed their fall update, first, the NDP, Liberals and Bloc Québécois should have kept their cool and quietly debate the proposed bill. More importantly, they should have kept their mouths shut about their frustration...

2- Then they should have pretended to support the bill and agree to vote on it a few day later. Again, they should have kept their mouths shut but to the media this time.

If they would have done these first 2 things, not the Conservatives nor the media would have known that they we're against the proposal.

3- The 3 opposition parties should have met SECRETLY behind closed doors to discuss the formation of the coalition and plans to vote against the proposed fall update while choosing a leader. Again, keeping their mouths shut about their plans to the media.

4- On the day of the vote, then the 3 opposition parties should have come out in force to vote against the Conservatives' bill thus defeating the government.

The Conservatives would have been caught by surprise and could not have done anything to avoid their defeat. Then the media would have obviously been notified of a surprise Government defeat.

5- They should have then signed the coalition deal and sent it urgently to the GG.

These 5 steps would have ensured coaliton victory.

Harper could not have cheated by asking for a prorogation and Michaelle Jean would have surely granted power of the house to the coaliton in order avoid another costy election after only 7 weeks.

Now that is how things should have been done...

Yup your more or less correct.

A more effective method would probably be to have kept silent until after the Lib
Leadership convention in the spring( or move the convention date up).
After the Libs had a new leader hit the Con's with the coalition on the first non-confidence issue.
Probably would have worked.

But what political party has ever kept a secret?

Trex

 

[Scott Free]

Now Harper is gaining support because Canadians don't understand the system.

Now THAT's an ignorant statement.

JMO[/quote]

Really?

He suspended the democratic process in Canada to hold his power because he would have lost it otherwise.

Maybe you need to look up the definition of fascism.

 

[Ron in Regina]

It baffles me how anyone could have taken this coalition seriously. Please, tell me how, without consultation with the Provinces, businesses, the auto industry, etc., etc., could ANY government come up with a so-called "stimulous" package in such a short period of time AND ensure it works the way we want it to? Yeah, we can give a billion or so to the auto/forestry sectors, but who's going to buy the cars and the wood?? It's a world-wide problem, not just a "Canadian" problem. Whatever "stimulous" package is created, it must be well thought out. Just throwing money at it is simply stupid.

Harper was totally wrong when introducing cuts to the political parties. It may well have to be done at some point, (or not) but now isn't the time to introduce something so blatently divisive. Fortunately, he's backed off that roller coaster.

As for civil servants (and politicians alike), they need to tighten their belts so I personally didn't have a problem freezing their wages for a while until there is some resolution to our economic problems. But, of course, if they don't want their wages frozen, they could possibly look forward to what many of us in the private sector are facing....lay offs!! I'd rather have a wage freeze and a job thank you! But that's just me.

There's a lot of emotion going on and people simply must step-back and take a deep breath and think rationally. We WILL get through this but not by political posturing and ignorant comments.

The fact of the matter is, we ALL have to do our part. The "bail outs" should be for those who are seriously affected through no fault of their own and not for those who have spent foolishly (i.e. big whopping CEO salaries etc.).

JMO

MY POINT EXACTLY!!! JMO...Thank You for bringing that point up!!!
Something like 80% of our paper & lumber products (and 90% of the Automobiles)
from Canada are produced for export to the USA who're (<--:shock::shock::lol::lol in a recession,
so they are not building houses or buying cars. North American Automotive sales are
down 50% from two years ago, and 90% of the vehicles made in Canada are shipped
out to the USA...

....So....how many auto workers and forestry workers jobs can realistically be saved?
Half? About half? All of them?:?:

If we keep All of them working with bail-out stimulus packages in the Billions, for
products that nobody is buying, where are we going to put all of these cars and paper
and lumber until the fire-sale where they'll be scrapped to make pipe & firewood?:?:

Manufacturing is a very broad (& important) term. If it's manufacturing a marketable item,
bail them out! If it's a product with no buyers, change the product from GMC Trucks to
GMC Solar Panels or something and then bail them out. Does this make sense???:shock::?:

If "Massey Ferguson" went to the Federal Government with hat in hand wanting Billions to
keep thousands employed to make Threshing Machines (when the farmers are all using
Combines now), would you bail them out (?) or tell them to start making Combines or
Toilet Bowls or something that people want and need if they want a bail-out?:shock::?:

 

[Vanni Fucci]

For those that didn't support the coalition I have this to say...

What you support or don't is irrelevant, the coalition had the majority support of the house, so was a legitimate option for government.

Who or what you voted for is also irrelevant, as again, the majority of the House was together on a common front, because the ones that you DID vote for were not willing to work with anyone.

This is a democracy dammit!!!

You don't always get the government you want!!!

The Governor General has made a grave error in judgement and allowed the prorogation of Parliament to avoid an impending defeat for the government in a confidence vote, something that's never happened at anytime in the history of Canada, UK or any Commonwealth country, presumably at the whim of Harper, and perceived public opinion.

This whole dismal episode was started by the Conservatives, and the Conservatives should pay dearly for this breech of trust, miscarriage of Parliamentary proceedings, and the ensuing attacks that they are already launching...

What now NEEDS to happen is not another election, but for either the Cons to smarten the **** up, and start working with the opposition, or for the oppostion leaders to hold fast their coalition, to choose a new leader, and for them to coherently explain to Canadians how wrong the Conservatives have been in this whole affair, and that the only real option is to either allow the coalition, or come elections time, vote them the hell out...

The Conservatives have shown quite clearly that they are willing to circumvent Parliament to hold onto power that they no longer deserve...

They have, do and continue to disgust me with the extent to which they are willing to gain, and hold onto the power at the expense of our country...

I think every ****ing Conservative MP should be forced to forfeit 3 months of pay for this fiasco...if they're not willing to work, why the hell should we pay them...

 

[Trex]

For those that didn't support the coalition I have this to say...

What you support or don't is irrelevant, the coalition had the majority support of the house, so was a legitimate option for government.

Who or what you voted for is also irrelevant, as again, the majority of the House was together on a common front, because the ones that you DID vote for were not willing to work with anyone.

This is a democracy dammit!!!

You don't always get the government you want!!!

The Governor General has made a grave error in judgement and allowed the prorogation of Parliament to avoid an impending defeat for the government in a confidence vote, something that's never happened at anytime in the history of Canada, UK or any Commonwealth country, presumably at the whim of Harper, and perceived public opinion.

This whole dismal episode was started by the Conservatives, and the Conservatives should pay dearly for this breech of trust, miscarriage of Parliamentary proceedings, and the ensuing attacks that they are already launching...

What now NEEDS to happen is not another election, but for either the Cons to smarten the **** up, and start working with the opposition, or for the oppostion leaders to hold fast their coalition, to choose a new leader, and for them to coherently explain to Canadians how wrong the Conservatives have been in this whole affair, and that the only real option is to either allow the coalition, or come elections time, vote them the hell out...

The Conservatives have shown quite clearly that they are willing to circumvent Parliament to hold onto power that they no longer deserve...

They have, do and continue to disgust me with the extent to which they are willing to gain, and hold onto the power at the expense of our country...

I think every ****ing Conservative MP should be forced to forfeit 3 months of pay for this fiasco...if they're not willing to work, why the hell should we pay them...

^ Another all inclusive, democracy loving type I see.

Actually what people support is very important.
Every individuals idea's and opinions are relevant.
I approve of free speech and even think posts like the above should be tolerated.

Who or What people voted for is also important.
It's freedom of choice.
No matter what there particular choice may have been.
We need more people to vote, more people to become involved in our political processes, more people to care.

The GG made a good choice and it was in keeping with our Constitution and Parliamentary precedence.

What needs to happen now, is that our political system will attempt do its best
in a difficult time.
Hopefully, and most likely it will endeavor to represent the will of the people as best it can.
Just because you don't like the Government of the day has absolutely nothing to do with what or how Government will function.

By the way.
Have you voted in all the Federal, Provincial and municipal elections you have been entitled to?
Just curious.
Trex