Do you believe in EVIL?

Dexter Sinister

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Oct 1, 2004
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If morality really is relative, why do we acknowledge that some things are absolutely wrong.
I'd argue that we don't,though we'd have to be careful how we define the terms. Some things, like the Holocaust, we can claim are absolutely wrong in terms of contemporary morality, but the Old Testament records tales of mass murder and genocide and what we'd now call ethnic cleansing, some of them done directly by the deity himself, and all of them done with at least his approval and connivance. There's no hint in Scripture that any of them were in any sense a bad thing. Modern ethics would also say that slavery is absolutely wrong, but neither the Bible nor the Quran suggest any such thing, they offer nothing but acceptance of the institution of slavery. Not even Jesus himself, who had plenty of opportunities to speak out against it, is reported as disapproving of it. Morality is relative to the societies that define it, and things can be defined as unreservedly bad in those terms, but in truly absolute terms, it doesn't work. I've been thinking about this question since this thread, and some related ones, started, and I've been asking myself, is there something that every culture in history that we know about has defined as absolutely wrong. It may be just a function of my lack of historical knowledge--I'm an engineer, not a historian--but I couldn't come up with anything. Not even murder. Even our own supposedly ethically advanced culture recognizes self-defense as a legitimate justification for it. Is there something in the category of absolute wrong in all societies in all times and places? I haven't been able to think of anything.
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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Why must one fear Hell?

Sir Francis,Why must we fear god? I think the religious are a little confused. Their god is all loving and merciful, but catch him on the rag and you are SOL. Forget to kiss his butt and there is no end to the suffering you will endure. Have you ever noticed how much god resembles human insecurities and emotions: anger, vengeance, hostility. Like Mark Twain said, "And man created god in his own image." Sure looks that way to me.
 

L Gilbert

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Same here, Cliffy.

I also like the quote that says, "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike" - Delos McKown.

No doubt we will always have people around that believe in some superstition or other, no matter how much reason is used to show them different. As Hugh Laurie's character "House" said one time, (paraphrasing): it is useless to use a rational argument against the faithful because if they were rational they wouldn't believe in such nonsense in the first place.

After all, there is actually more merit in worshipping the sun or moon than there is worshipping some invisible god or goddess. We have grounds to actually believe the sun and moon exist outside of some book's say so.
 

MHz

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Is there something in the category of absolute wrong in all societies in all times and places? I haven't been able to think of anything.
The status that parents are to be respected (either) would seem to rate pretty high in the universal dept.
Submission to a 'higher authority' is also quite universal, society demands there be some sort of leadership.
 

MHz

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After all, there is actually more merit in worshipping the sun or moon than there is worshipping some invisible god or goddess. We have grounds to actually believe the sun and moon exist outside of some book's say so.
An 'invisible God' doesn't demand that any structures be built, He's listening 24/7. An 'invisible God' doesn't demand money (Caesar's things remain his), nor can 'large donations' buy you a spot.
Just because you demand more proof than the existence of a book means what? Nothing really, it only means you are still on milk and just aren't ready for the meaty parts.
 

scratch

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I keep asking myself `scratch, why are you reading about something you know is "a fantasy"` and I do not get an answer.
scth
 

MHz

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So you view it as fantasy, BFD. Does that disqualify you as being able to form an opinion. Daniel 7 has a 'Nation' coming from the North-West to control Jerusalem. It then gives a few verses that cover some events during that time, if you know anything about the NT you should be able to form an 'opinion' as to if the two events are related or not. Then move on to the consequences if it is true or if it is false. That way there is some sort of progress in the conversation. More often than not it ends up as an endless loop.
 

scratch

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I have absolutely `nothing` in my home that relates to religion of any kind.
 

MHz

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That's a good start. When it comes time to move it means right then, no even going into the house to grab a coat.
 

VanIsle

Always thinking
Nov 12, 2008
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Why must one fear Hell?

Sir Francis,Why must we fear god? I think the religious are a little confused. Their god is all loving and merciful, but catch him on the rag and you are SOL. Forget to kiss his butt and there is no end to the suffering you will endure. Have you ever noticed how much god resembles human insecurities and emotions: anger, vengeance, hostility. Like Mark Twain said, "And man created god in his own image." Sure looks that way to me.
Cliff, no reasonable person has to fear God. BTW - God created us in his image - not the other way around. Maybe for some - too much so. In the old testament God was a vengeful God but that changed after Jesus and into the new testament. He there becomes a better "parent". Anyone who lives a decent life - christian or not will not go to Hell. Anyone who has led a decent life will have the chance to repent (more than one chance) and it seems obvious that once you see the face of God, you would instantly repent and if you have been a good living person here on earth then you get to join the rest in heaven. Isn't it an old Roger Whitiker (sp) tune that states "I don't believe that Heaven waits for only those who congregate"? I have repeatably stated - What have you got to lose by believing. You die and there is no God - then you just die. End of story. You die and God is there - you repent and live in Heaven. End of story. I'm not so sure I believe in Hell. I know that we don't have a need to fear God at least as decent people. Even the not so decent will do okay in the end.:smile:
There are the truly vile and the mentally disturbed. Can anyone believe that a loving God will take revenge on the mentally disturbed? I suppose there are some that believe things like that but they take their belief too far.
 

VanIsle

Always thinking
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I keep asking myself `scratch, why are you reading about something you know is "a fantasy"` and I do not get an answer.
scth
Has it occurred to you that many of us do not believe for a moment that we are reading a fantasy?
 

VanIsle

Always thinking
Nov 12, 2008
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I have absolutely `nothing` in my home that relates to religion of any kind.
Not even a bible? Have you read the bible then? Sounds like you just prefer to take the word of others and really have nothing to argue.
 

scratch

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May 20, 2008
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Not even a bible? Have you read the bible then? Sounds like you just prefer to take the word of others and really have nothing to argue.

I use my brain, my university education and my everyday experiences. I believe nothing that I read (someone else's opinion), half of what I hear (BS) and all that I can see.
Argue that.
rgs
scth
 

Cliffy

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IslandSpecific,

I believe in a multiverse, many thousands of parallel universes. But that gets way to complicated to explain outside of quantum physics (that you think is bunk because you read it somewhere). Trying to explain it then becomes a exercise in futility, like you trying to explain your god by quoting scriptures from the bible. It is meaningless to me.

My cosmology comes from reading a lot of different religious books, philosophy, spirituality and metaphysics, as well as talking to hundreds of people of various persuasions and taking part in ceremony and ritual of many different belief systems. But mostly, my views are based on my personal experiences in life; living in the forest for a decade being one of the most influential.
 

MHz

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I use my brain, my university education and my everyday experiences. I believe nothing that I read (someone else's opinion), half of what I hear (BS) and all that I can see.
Argue that.
rgs
scth
I could have passed this up but it is wayyy too easy. The education you received where you read no books, only took in half of what the teachers covered and something about gazing around most of the time, apparently. And this qualifies you as a 'right to posses an opinion', but what else?
 

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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What do you think of the notion of ''evil''?

Is evil relative? Is it a matter of personal opinion? Are some things evil no matter what?

Is ''evil'' a human construct that has no existence whatsoever outside the human mind?
I don't know if "believing in it" is quite the right phrasing, but yes I think there is evil-as I see evil I believe part of it would include any deliberate harm done to another human being who has done nothing to deserve it? Do evil acts make for evil people? I'm not sure, I suppose most of us have acted in an evil fashion at some point or another and I would think it depends a lot on whether there is remove or not after we've committed the evil. I've often asked myself the question "are politicians evil"? I'd say if they are not 99% of them are "banging on the door".
 

L Gilbert

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The status that parents are to be respected (either) would seem to rate pretty high in the universal dept.
Submission to a 'higher authority' is also quite universal, society demands there be some sort of leadership.
lol And society is failing us. So? And people have been inventing gods n demons (higher authorities) for all of history. So?
Fortunately there are a few atheists that prefer to view things rationally.