Not quite, he was still 1 percentage point above the worst. But hey, he's still got 2 months to drop that point and be the worst in US history!
GO BUSH!
Israel...
- Thread starter dancing-loon
- Start date
Not quite, he was still 1 percentage point above the worst. But hey, he's still got 2 months to drop that point and be the worst in US history!
GO BUSH!
It wasn't that simple. In principle both sides agreed to swap land for peace and move the borders around to accomodate illegal Israeli colonies on Palestinian land. At first the Israelis insisted the Palestinians accept the land swap without seeing what they were getting. But when Palestinians looked at the land Israel was giving up, it turned out to be places Israel had dumped hazardous materials. So the area was equal, but a toxic waste dump and desert isn't the equivalent of prime agricultural land and was in fact a rip off. As soon as the Palestinians figured out they were being swindled and the Israelis had not bargained in good faith they refused "the deal".
And so on. What looks like Israel being "fair" on the surface often isn't. For example, most of the Israelis illegally occupying Gaza were relocated to other illegally occupied land in the West Bank. The main point of the relocation was to turn Gaza into a concentration camp and they couldn't do that while Israeli citizens were living there. Now Gaza is a giant prison and the Israeli government is trying to starve the inmates who are guilty of not being Jewish into submission. Its shameful.
When Israel builds or expands illegal settlements, it doesn't make the news. But it is news when they dismantle one. That's how hundreds of thousands of people live illegally on land illegally seized from Palestinians in violation of international laws treaties and conventions without the world noticing. Yet move a couple dozen people from one illegal location to another and its headlines.
No Gaza and the West Bank isn't appartheid. Its far worse. At least black and colored South Africans were citizens. The South African government wasn't bombing the black shanty towns or restricting food and medicine. I could go on, but basically when you cut through the propaganda, you find out Israelis have been crapping on Palestinians for 60 years... No wonder they are pissed.
ug, again with the "Israeli" (ignoring Egyptian) turning of Gaza into a prison.
Ok, I'd like you to answer this. If Gaza was independant, what would Israel be doing different now?
It wouldn't be providing any free fuel or electricty. Gaza is not a prison anymore than North Korea is a prison. Its cut off from the world because of how it chooses to act.
Its that simple.
Ok, I'd like you to answer this. If Gaza was independant, what would Israel be doing different now?
It wouldn't be providing any free fuel or electricty. Gaza is not a prison anymore than North Korea is a prison. Its cut off from the world because of how it chooses to act.
Its that simple.
Exactly. If Gaza is a prison it's Hamas who are the Prison Keepers.
Anybody keeping count of how many rockets were fired at Israel during the "truce"? :laughing6:
Pastestinians do not exist!
I think we can close the discussion now, because I just found a statement from Israeli Prime Minister, Golda Meir, "Palestinians don't exist!"
While checking who this Mr. Michael R. Fischbach is, I came upon an interesting site.
First Shot in Terror War Killed RFK
By Michael R. Fischbach
.....
Robert Kennedy’s murder offered another, utterly different lesson that the nation completely failed to absorb, a lesson about Palestinian anger. The Robert Kennedy assassination was the first case of Middle Eastern “terrorism” here at home – decades before the 1993 and 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center, decades before Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda became household names.
Sirhan was a Palestinian whose parents had fled their home in West Jerusalem as refugees during the first Arab-Israeli war, in 1948, when he was 4 years old. Raised first in Jordanian-controlled East Jerusalem and later in Pasadena, Sirhan grew up deeply embittered about Israel and the plight of his fellow Palestinian refugees.
Sen. Kennedy, by contrast, admired the Israelis, a feeling that dated from his days as a young correspondent for the Boston Post covering the war in Palestine in 1948. Sirhan’s early support for Kennedy turned to hatred after the senator advocated the sale of advanced F-4 Phantom jets to Israel in the wake of the 1967 war in the Middle East, a war that also signaled the growing U.S. support for the Jewish state.
Sirhan’s diaries revealed the depth of his swelling anger when they recorded, “RFK must die!”
Kennedy was shot one year to the day after Israel launched the 1967 war.
Although most Americans quickly became aware after the assassination that Sirhan was an Arab (he was referred to as a “Jordanian” citizen), the source of his rage was not clearly explained in most stories. In those days few people even knew what a “Palestinian” was
– Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir said shortly afterward that there was “no such thing” as a Palestinian people and that “they did not exist” – and even fewer understood their grievances.
Full article here....
First Shot in Terror War Killed RFK - Los Angeles Times
Fischbach has written several books; he is an expert on Middle East tension!
I have my doubts about this Sirhan guy. He could be the "fall guy", like Earl Ray and Lee Oswald.
Isn't it kind of intriguing how Oswald was a Communist, and Sirhan an Arab? But that's getting off topic now!:roll:
I think we can close the discussion now, because I just found a statement from Israeli Prime Minister, Golda Meir, "Palestinians don't exist!"
While checking who this Mr. Michael R. Fischbach is, I came upon an interesting site.
First Shot in Terror War Killed RFK
By Michael R. Fischbach
.....
Robert Kennedy’s murder offered another, utterly different lesson that the nation completely failed to absorb, a lesson about Palestinian anger. The Robert Kennedy assassination was the first case of Middle Eastern “terrorism” here at home – decades before the 1993 and 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center, decades before Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda became household names.
Sirhan was a Palestinian whose parents had fled their home in West Jerusalem as refugees during the first Arab-Israeli war, in 1948, when he was 4 years old. Raised first in Jordanian-controlled East Jerusalem and later in Pasadena, Sirhan grew up deeply embittered about Israel and the plight of his fellow Palestinian refugees.
Sen. Kennedy, by contrast, admired the Israelis, a feeling that dated from his days as a young correspondent for the Boston Post covering the war in Palestine in 1948. Sirhan’s early support for Kennedy turned to hatred after the senator advocated the sale of advanced F-4 Phantom jets to Israel in the wake of the 1967 war in the Middle East, a war that also signaled the growing U.S. support for the Jewish state.
Sirhan’s diaries revealed the depth of his swelling anger when they recorded, “RFK must die!”
Kennedy was shot one year to the day after Israel launched the 1967 war.
Although most Americans quickly became aware after the assassination that Sirhan was an Arab (he was referred to as a “Jordanian” citizen), the source of his rage was not clearly explained in most stories. In those days few people even knew what a “Palestinian” was
– Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir said shortly afterward that there was “no such thing” as a Palestinian people and that “they did not exist” – and even fewer understood their grievances.
Full article here....
First Shot in Terror War Killed RFK - Los Angeles Times
Fischbach has written several books; he is an expert on Middle East tension!
I have my doubts about this Sirhan guy. He could be the "fall guy", like Earl Ray and Lee Oswald.
Isn't it kind of intriguing how Oswald was a Communist, and Sirhan an Arab? But that's getting off topic now!:roll:
The prison keepers are the people guarding the prison, not the people digging tunnels to smuggle in food and medicine.
No doubt weapons are also being smuggled, but people can't eat bullets. Nor can they survive on what little food Israel allows in.
No doubt weapons are also being smuggled, but people can't eat bullets. Nor can they survive on what little food Israel allows in.
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Typical that JTF would point out the Hamas ceasefire violations, but fail to recognize that they were in response to Israeli ceasefire violations. The end date of the ceasefire is coming and Israel still hasn't opened the borders, or stopped its daily raids and targetted assassinations. Hamas and the other militant groups actually put up with closed borders and daily Israel raids for some time before they finally responded with the only method they have to affect Israel. Unlike Israeli attack helicopters, tanks and heavy artillary, Palestinian rockets usually don't result in any deaths.
Like past ceasefires it appears that Israel and the world expects only Israel's adversaries to respect it terms, while Israel can carry on starving and killing people as usual and still somehow avoid criticism or punitive measures.
The Star:
Sure I imagine Israel would like Hamas to continue with the ceasefire while it continues violating it.
Like past ceasefires it appears that Israel and the world expects only Israel's adversaries to respect it terms, while Israel can carry on starving and killing people as usual and still somehow avoid criticism or punitive measures.
The Star:
Sure I imagine Israel would like Hamas to continue with the ceasefire while it continues violating it.
Put up with closed borders?
Gaza has no right to open borders. No nation has a right to open borders. Hamas is involved in ceasefire violations, that is that simple.
The ceasefire violations started in Gaza, now, officially they weren't the doing of Hamas. But that just means that at best, Hamas is not in control of Gaza and Hamas has no authority to make arrangements, meaning they are void.
Hamas doesn't seem to be in the business of restoring order in Gaza to keep these other powers from being involved in attacks. It is however willing to turn on opposition political parties, so its not that its incapable , it chooses not to stop ceasefire violations. Hence it is giving defacto support to them.
As for the hellish conditions, sorry, it isn't that hellish, not according to those in Gaza on the BBC anyways. I look at their conditions they describe and think "Why the hell is anyone focusing so much attention on these whiners, does no one know how much worse it is in most of the world? Should we not set priorities? What about the Congo?"
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Voices: Gaza closure and shortages
Gaza has no right to open borders. No nation has a right to open borders. Hamas is involved in ceasefire violations, that is that simple.
The ceasefire violations started in Gaza, now, officially they weren't the doing of Hamas. But that just means that at best, Hamas is not in control of Gaza and Hamas has no authority to make arrangements, meaning they are void.
Hamas doesn't seem to be in the business of restoring order in Gaza to keep these other powers from being involved in attacks. It is however willing to turn on opposition political parties, so its not that its incapable , it chooses not to stop ceasefire violations. Hence it is giving defacto support to them.
As for the hellish conditions, sorry, it isn't that hellish, not according to those in Gaza on the BBC anyways. I look at their conditions they describe and think "Why the hell is anyone focusing so much attention on these whiners, does no one know how much worse it is in most of the world? Should we not set priorities? What about the Congo?"
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Voices: Gaza closure and shortages
That's incorrect. Rockets have been coming into Israel for months. Israel did nothing.
Typically, once Israel responds to months of being fired upon, THEY are breaking the truce.
And btw, Hamas is making a killing on those tunnels. It's in their best interest to keep the borders closed.
Z:As for the hellish conditions, sorry, it isn't that hellish, not according to those in Gaza on the BBC anyways.
eao:You mean like these BBC stories?
BBC
BBC
Most food and medicine coming into Gaza now comes by a network of tunnels linking Gaza to Egypt rather than through Israel.
BBC
Israel doesn't claim they were attacked by the tunnels they destroyed or the people they killed. The tunnels are only a threat to Israel's ability to starve 1.4 million people into submission and their ability to control Gaza. Gaza already has plenty of guns.
As these tunnels become more numerous, its possible that Israel's control of the official border crossings will become irrelevant.
Now you would be hard pressed to find a story in the Canadian news about this ongoing crime against humanity unlike tragedy unfolding in the Congo. That's why it deserves attention on websites like this.
eao:You mean like these BBC stories?
BBC
Tuesday, 4 November 2008
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Printable version
Gaza residents 'terribly trapped'
Mrs Robinson said she expected to be criticised for her comments
A former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Mary Robinson, has told the BBC she was taken aback by the "terrible" conditions in Gaza on a recent visit.
Mrs Robinson said it was "almost unbelievable" that the world did not care about what she called "a shocking violation of so many human rights".
Israel tightened a blockade on Gaza after Hamas took control there in 2007.
On Tuesday, Egypt temporarily opened its Gaza border to allow students and people needing medical care to cross. Mrs Robinson, a former president of Ireland, told the BBC she had been "taken aback with the terrible, trapped situation of the families" in the Gaza....
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Gaza residents 'terribly trapped'
BBC
11 November 2008
UN warns over Gaza food blockade
Unwra warned said its food distribution operations would end on Thursday
The UN in the Gaza Strip says it will run out of food aid in two days unless Israel's blockade - which it describes as "shameful and unacceptable" - eases.
The UN refugee agency Unrwa, which distributes food to half of Gaza's 1,5m people, called the blockade "a physical as well as a mental punishment".
Israel is now allowing a limited amount of fuel across the border, but it is still blocking food deliveries.
It says it tightened sanctions because of rocket attacks by militants.
The Islamist group Hamas, which controls Gaza, said the rockets were a response to an Israeli raid that killed six gunmen on 4 November. Gaza's only power plant was closed on Monday, after Israel stopped fuel deliveries....
BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | UN warns over Gaza food blockade
Most food and medicine coming into Gaza now comes by a network of tunnels linking Gaza to Egypt rather than through Israel.
BBC
If the tunnels were going toward Israel, then Israel might have a point. But all Gaza's tunnels lead to Egypt. Given Israel's refusal to allow sufficient food into Gaza, Gazans have no choice but to smuggle food through the tunnels just to feed themselves.
Israel doesn't claim they were attacked by the tunnels they destroyed or the people they killed. The tunnels are only a threat to Israel's ability to starve 1.4 million people into submission and their ability to control Gaza. Gaza already has plenty of guns.
As these tunnels become more numerous, its possible that Israel's control of the official border crossings will become irrelevant.
Now you would be hard pressed to find a story in the Canadian news about this ongoing crime against humanity unlike tragedy unfolding in the Congo. That's why it deserves attention on websites like this.
BS
Israel interprets the ceasefire as not applying to farmers or fisherman or anyone they want to kill in the West Bank. Does that sound like a ceasefire? And so it continued... Israel would assassinate people, the Palestinians would return a salvo of missiles and rockets.
Also notice how the NYT mentions the Palestinian violations first even though they were obviously a response to previous Israeli sniping and assassinations. The story has to twist the information awkwardly in order to create that perception.
By August, Israel still hadn't opened up the border in violation of the ceasefire agreement and Palestinian farmers and fisherman were regularly being fired at even though they were within Gaza's borders.
But the tunnels appear to be making Israel less and less relevant anyway.
I think that would suit Israel just fine.
I don't believe Israel shot at farmers along the border. I don't believe there were farmers along the border. It's just stories, just like the Palestinian farmer that was reportedly killed by Israeli's, only to turn out he was killed by a Palestinain rocket that fell short.
Palestinians fire rockets into Israel, and Israel responds by closing the border. The horror.
Here's the news in just the first two weeks of ceasefire. Palestinians fire rockets into Israel, and Israel responds by closing the border. Palestinians fire rockets into Israel, and Israel responds by closing the border.
You'll see a definite pattern there. And definite refutation of your claim of Israel never opening the border. They kept trying to open it, but would have rockets fired at them in return. Hamas sees an open border as something to drive a truck bomb through.
Can't blame Israel for closing it under those circumstances.
This is just two weeks. I can go on:
June 20
Israel Increases Flow of Supplies to Gaza as Truce Holds - Robert Berger
Israel is increasing the flow of supplies into Gaza as an Egyptian-mediated truce that began last Thursday holds. "If the quiet is sustainable, and I hope it will be, then in the coming days you will see the gradual easing of the sanctions on the Gaza Strip," said Israeli spokesman Mark Regev. However, "Hamas has to know that we will not get anywhere close to normalization on the crossings as long as [abducted Israeli soldier] Gilad Shalit is being held hostage," he said
June 23
· Terror Activity, Arms Smuggling Stepped Up in Gaza - Barak Ravid
The Israel Security Agency (Shin Bet) has identified a recent increase in terrorist activity in Gaza, Yuval Diskin, the head of the intelligence agency, said Sunday. He added that arms smuggling had been stepped up, as well as training. Diskin added that major terror attacks were in the works on the eve of the cease-fire. On June 22, Hamas planned to drive two booby-trapped vehicles into Israel through a hole in the fence to have been made by an armored tractor. However, one of the booby-trapped vehicles exploded in a Hamas operative's home. (Ha'aretz)
June 24
· Palestinians in Gaza Fire Mortar at Israel Despite Cease-Fire - Shmulik Hadad
Palestinian gunmen in Gaza fired a mortar at Israel on Tuesday, in a breach of last Thursday's cease-fire agreement. (Ynet News)
June 25
· Palestinian Rockets Hit Israel, Breaking Hamas Truce - Isabel Kershner
Three Kassam rockets fired from Gaza on Tuesday struck the Israeli town of Sderot and its environs, constituting the first serious breach of a truce between Israel and Hamas, the Islamic group that controls Gaza. Mark Regev, a spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, said the rocket fire from Gaza had been "a grave violation of the calm" that came into effect last Thursday. Islamic Jihad, a small extremist group, claimed responsibility for the attack. Previous cease-fire understandings in Gaza have fallen apart over the inability of Palestinian leaders to contain the smaller groups. (New York Times)
June 26
· Hamas Says It Will Not Police Truce with Israel - Ibrahim Barzak
Hamas leader Khalil al-Haya said the group will not act to confront Palestinian militants who breach the truce with Israel, after Gaza militants fired three rockets into southern Israel Tuesday, lightly wounding two Israelis. Hamas said it was exerting pressure on Islamic Jihad, which claimed responsibility for the attack, to stop the rocket fire, but al-Haya said Hamas forces would not confront rocket launching squads on the ground. "Hamas is not going to be a police securing the border," he added. "No one will enjoy a happy moment seeing Hamas holding a rifle in the face of a resistance fighter." (AP)
June 27
Palestinian Rocket Hits Israel Thursday, Second Violation of Gaza Truce - Mark Lavie
Gaza militants fired two rockets into southern Israel on Thursday, the second rocket attack since the cease-fire was announced last week. The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a violent offshoot of Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah, claimed responsibility for firing the rockets. Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said it should not matter who was behind the rocket attack. "I am not interested in who fired and who didn't fire at Israel," she said. "It is a violation, and Israel needs to respond immediately, militarily, for every violation." Since the cease-fire agreement took effect June 19, Israel has responded to rocket attacks by closing crossings rather than retaliating with airstrikes at Palestinian rocket squads. (AP/Washington Post)
Palestinians in Gaza Fire Mortars at Israel on Friday - Nidal al-Mughrabi
Palestinian militants in Gaza fired two mortar shells into southern Israel on Friday in the latest challenge to a cease-fire deal that Gaza's Hamas rulers have vowed to uphold. One shell landed near Kibbutz Kfar Aza. Israel has kept border crossings into Gaza closed since Wednesday but it allowed fuel to reach the territory's sole power station on Friday. An EU official said an estimated 600,000 liters of industrial fuel would be pumped through the Nahal Oz border terminal to Gaza's power station. (Ynet News/Reuters)
June 30
Israel Reopens Gaza Crossings After Closures Over Palestinian Rocket Fire - Yuval Azoulay
Israel reopened its border crossings with Gaza on Sunday after Palestinian rocket fire last week led to a closure of the passages. Israeli military liaison official Peter Lerner said the Sufa and Karni commercial crossings, the Nahal Oz fuel transfer depot and the Erez border terminal for travelers resumed operations. (Ha'aretz)
Palestinians Fire Mortars at Gaza Crossing Saturday - Shmulik Hadad
Palestinians fired a number of mortars Saturday evening toward the Karni crossing on the Gaza-Israel border. (Ynet News)
July 1
· Gaza Rocket Fire Continues, Israel Closes Border Crossings - Fadi Eyadat and Shahar Ilan
Palestinian gunmen fired a Kassam rocket at Israel on Monday afternoon in violation of a cease-fire agreement between Israel and Hamas. In response, Israel closed the border crossings between Israel and Gaza. (Ha'aretz)
July 2
Four Dead, 36 Injured in Jerusalem Terror Attack; Palestinian Bulldozer Driver Attacks Bus, Cars
A Palestinian bulldozer driver went on a rampage on Jaffa Road in Jerusalem Wednesday, plowing into a string of vehicles, killing four Israelis - three women and a man - and wounding dozens of others before he was shot dead by police and a civilian. At the scene of the attack, cars were flattened and a bus was overturned. (AP/International Herald Tribune/Ynet News)
· Arms Smuggling Continues, Despite Egyptian Pledges - Yuval Azoulay
Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai on Tuesday said Egypt is not doing enough to halt weapons smuggling from Sinai to Gaza. According to Vilnai, the flow of weapons via the Philadelphi route is ongoing. Egypt was making more effort than it had in the past, but the effort was "not really successful." (Ha'aretz)
July 4
· Palestinian Rocket Fire Breaks Truce, Israel Closes Crossings - Shmulik Hadad
In yet another violation of the agreed-upon cease-fire between Israel and armed Palestinian organizations, which went into effect two weeks ago, a Palestinian rocket fired from northern Gaza struck Israel Thursday. In light of the attack, Defense Minister Barak ordered the closure of all the crossings along the Gaza-Israel border. (Ynet News)
How so? The alleged shooting allegedly happened on Wednesday. The rocket attack was on Tuesday. See my post above...a definite pattern:
Palestinians fire rockets into Israel, and Israel responds by closing the border. Palestinians fire rockets into Israel, and Israel responds by closing the border. Palestinians fire rockets into Israel, and Israel responds by closing the border. Palestinians fire rockets into Israel, and Israel responds by closing the border. Palestinians fire rockets into Israel, and Israel responds by closing the border. Palestinians fire rockets into Israel, and Israel responds by closing the border....
I'm not surprised that Israeli sources would portray Israel as an innocent victim. How about if I quote Palestinian sources in rebuttal?