Still dosen't excuse them killing someone with a taser.
Stick my neck out? Why? I didn't choose that occupation.
More people die in construction per year, you don't see parades down the streets for them do you, it's a job, just do it.
Man dies after Taser shock by police at Vancouver airport
- Thread starter CBC News
- Start date
Still dosen't excuse them killing someone with a taser.
Stick my neck out? Why? I didn't choose that occupation.
More people die in construction per year, you don't see parades down the streets for them do you, it's a job, just do it.
"Tasers were introduced as less-lethal weapons to be used by police to subdue fleeing, belligerent, or potentially dangerous subjects, often when what they consider to be a more lethal weapon would have otherwise been used."
Taser - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Taser - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
DurkaDurka. First I wouldn't use wikipedia as my source for info or links....lacks serious credibility. Secondly you just proved my post in every word of your quote. Less lethal does not mean Alternate to lethal. just like a sock round is a less lethal weapon it is not a substitute or alternative for deadly force. These tools were invented as intermediary devices where time and distance were not critical. That all goes out the window if a person has the ability to strike you.
A person with a knife can be tasered or get a sock round in the chest if there is time and distance for it. The taser is not an alternative to lethal force when the guy is rushing at you with the knife.
Less lethal and alternate to lethal do not mean the same thing.
And not hog tying someone has nothing to do with a "law". We don't need laws to decide policy in the workplace.
Anyway here's the quote:"Due to Dr. Reay’s research, many law enforcement agencies around the world began toprohibit the use of the hog-tie restraint and provided training to their members on the issuessurrounding “Positional Asphyxia”, in an attempt to combat the incidence of sudden andunexpected deaths proximal to restraint.
And here's the link: TASER TECHNOLOGY REVIEW & INTERIM RECOMMENDATIONS
A person with a knife can be tasered or get a sock round in the chest if there is time and distance for it. The taser is not an alternative to lethal force when the guy is rushing at you with the knife.
Less lethal and alternate to lethal do not mean the same thing.
And not hog tying someone has nothing to do with a "law". We don't need laws to decide policy in the workplace.
Anyway here's the quote:"Due to Dr. Reay’s research, many law enforcement agencies around the world began toprohibit the use of the hog-tie restraint and provided training to their members on the issuessurrounding “Positional Asphyxia”, in an attempt to combat the incidence of sudden andunexpected deaths proximal to restraint.
And here's the link: TASER TECHNOLOGY REVIEW & INTERIM RECOMMENDATIONS
Just because you support the average troop who sacrafices, or you support firemen or doctors/paramedics, doesn't mean you don't support police officers.
And just because someone is critical of the actions of any of the above groups and want some kind of change for the better of all, doesn't mean they don't support them none the less..... sometimes those critical comments and suggestions for change are directly due to supporting them and reducing the amount of garbage they may end up getting into in the future where it could be prevented.
Believe it or not, but many people don't think in black & white..... just because someone doesn't like one or two things someone does, doesn't mean they hate everything about them.
Lithp, wikipedia does a fair enough job of describing what a taser is so piss off with your
lectures.
The fact is, a lot more people are dying due to hot headed cops using tasers in situations that do not warrant it. Cops are afraid to get their hands dirty these days and they rely on their tools far too much. If a cop cannot handle an unruly suspect without zapping him with 50,000 volts, they shouldn't be cops.
" a more lethal weapon would have otherwise been used." That seems to be an alternative to lethal force.
Policies vary from force to force correct in regards to hog tying, correct? or should I assume that you speak on behalf of all police forces?
Gee, could it be that Tasers are an alternative to leathal force because they are less lethal in the first place?
You don't use an RPG in the mouth as an alternative to lethal force if it's more lethal.... lethal means deadly.... if the action you are to take is already lethal and deadly, then why would you need another alternative to be more lethal and deadly or more effective in death? That makes no sense no matter how you spin it.
The taser is supposed to (or should) be used in situations inbetween deadly force and physical action to subdue a suspect, If you can subdue a suspect with physical force, then they should do so..... if you feel your life is currently at risk within a few seconds of action, then the firearm should be deployed...... if you feel someone may become harmful to your health or elevate to danger to your life shortly, then perhaps the taser should be deployed.
Case in point.... if someone is getting physical with fists and kicking, the chances of you dying are slim.... you may get roughed up in the process, but you should (with other officers) take the bastard down the old fashion way.
If someone is holding a knife, walking around in circles and going all crazy, but not attacking you and you're at a safe distance from them..... then the taser should be deployed to make them drop the weapon. As soon as the weapon is out of their control, then go back to physical restraining.
If the guy's got a gun and will not put it down, or is threatening the safety of yourself and those around you.... shoot em.
Sounds like a simple solution to the problem.
And in regards to hog tieing someone.... if it puts the person at risk of soffocating, then change the way the hog tieing is done so that it doesn't. I'm sure people can think of more then just one way.
Maybe people die so much in that position because it's a "Hog Tie" not a "Human Tie" and we all know we're not the same shape as Hogs
Agreed. Perhaps I spoke to soon. Obviously I don't think that Avro believes that all police don't want to get their hands dirty. But I took offence to the comment that the police risk physical harm "for a change". To me it seemed like he was painting all police officers with the same brush. All emergency response personnell risk harm frequently.
And lets face it. No one wants to see a government authority figure beating on a civilian. Especially if the witness only sees that portion of the altercation and not everything that led up to it.
Don't feel bad because I proved my point with your help.
Secondly. As I just posted above. I don't believe that you truly believe that all cops are afraid to get their hands dirty. Many of them have use of force policies that govern their response to various situations. Many of them would rather use an intermediary weapon than be seen by the public pummeling and body slamming a civilian. Or worse, if the person is very powerful or large- several cops beating him down.
Listen, I agree with you. Police should not be so reliant on weapons if they are not warranted. But they are also trained to win. Their philosphy is much like that of any paramilitary group- overwhelm the opponent in order to win. Sometimes this requires weapons.
The police and military may be trained to fight and put themselves at risk. but just because soldiers have rifles doesent mean a tank or air strike from afar isnt a safer solution. How many soldier's lives were saved from air strikes in Iraq? How many officer's lives have been saved through the use of intermediary weapons?
And the next time you see a police officer or a group of them beating the hell out of a civilian are you going to scream "police brutality"? Or are you going to reserve judgement until all the facts are in? Or are you willing to risk your safety and help those officers if they need it?
Gee, could it be that Tasers are an alternative to leathal force because they are less lethal in the first place?
You don't use an RPG in the mouth as an alternative to lethal force if it's more lethal.... lethal means deadly.... if the action you are to take is already lethal and deadly, then why would you need another alternative to be more lethal and deadly or more effective in death? That makes no sense no matter how you spin it.
The taser is supposed to (or should) be used in situations inbetween deadly force and physical action to subdue a suspect, If you can subdue a suspect with physical force, then they should do so..... if you feel your life is currently at risk within a few seconds of action, then the firearm should be deployed...... if you feel someone may become harmful to your health or elevate to danger to your life shortly, then perhaps the taser should be deployed.
Case in point.... if someone is getting physical with fists and kicking, the chances of you dying are slim.... you may get roughed up in the process, but you should (with other officers) take the bastard down the old fashion way.
If someone is holding a knife, walking around in circles and going all crazy, but not attacking you and you're at a safe distance from them..... then the taser should be deployed to make them drop the weapon. As soon as the weapon is out of their control, then go back to physical restraining.
If the guy's got a gun and will not put it down, or is threatening the safety of yourself and those around you.... shoot em.
Sounds like a simple solution to the problem.
And in regards to hog tieing someone.... if it puts the person at risk of soffocating, then change the way the hog tieing is done so that it doesn't. I'm sure people can think of more then just one way.
Maybe people die so much in that position because it's a "Hog Tie" not a "Human Tie" and we all know we're not the same shape as Hogs
I agree with everything you say here. But the point is that police officers are regular people. They are not any tougher or stronger than anyone in the general public. Sure they have training but smaller officers, female officers or officers facing a guy high on PCP have no choice but to do what it takes to stop this person. Sometimes this requires weapons.
If you were a 5'2" person and you were confronted by a 6'3" male who was high as a kite in an alley way you'd be looking around for something to use against this guy. Cause you would know that this will probably not go well. The same holds true for police doesn't it?
In this scenario if this officer confronted the man alone and unarmed and got hurt in the process they would be chastised by their fellow officers and superiors. Not to mention their family
In Canada, roughly ten people a year are shot and killed by police for one reason or another. Since 2003 seventeen people have been tasered to death by police. I would be interested in the number of non-fatal taserings.
Taser related deaths in Canada
Taser related deaths in Canada
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Well I'm 6'6 and high as a kite more often then not, but I ain't gonna go and rip the skin off your head and eat your brains.
Usually when faced with a situation like that, those type of people can be kept at bay and calm just through keeping distance and talking. If you don't believe you can take the person into custody easily, then call and wait for backup and keep the situation under control until they arrive to assist. Even at my drunkest or stoned state of mind, if I see two or more police officers..... heck even one, I ain't gonna try my luck, even if I am bigger then they are. One cop can turn into 10 in a few seconds of a call.
Not that I ever had to be put into that position against police officers... I get along quite well with them.... but if someone is fried out of their minds and screwed up on some heavy stuff, the last thing you want to do is to start cornering them, giving them orders and intemidating them with physical force. You might as well start jabbing a grizzly with a stick.
I'm no police officer, but I have come accross some pretty edgy people all fried on cocaine, speed and a few other drugs, like E, shrooms, acid, alcohol, etc...... many were right on the edge waiting for an excuse to start swinging and going ballistic..... yet all I did was keep my own cool, keep my voice level and continually agreed on their positions and what was bothering them...... it may not work in all cases, but I have gotten out of plenty of situations in the past where the person was about to unload on everybody around them. I talked with them, they gradually calmed down and eventually became reasonable.
And I have seen many situations where police officers took their time, gave them their distance and gave them time to think about the situation they are currently in, and the person eventually went peacefully.... Most situations, much like the incident in the vancouver airport with Robert, where the person is tasered and/or killed by police, those officers usually show that they simply don't have the time or patience to handle the situation properly and a taser is a quick fix for most.
I posted another situation that occured in a hospital a few months back where an elderly man was admitted, but because of his medical condition became confused and didn't know why he was there, pulled a pocket knife he had on him and kept everybody at bay and away from him because he didn't know what was going on.
Police arrived and rather then attempting to calm him down, explain the situation and resolve it peacefully, an officer was quoted along the lines of "Just deploy the taser, we have more important things to do today" and they tazzed him...... and if my memory is correct, he was in the hospital in relation to a heart condition.
He didn't attack anybody, he was scared and in a defensive position..... jabbing a grizzly with a stick situation again.
To me, tasers require a lot more rules and control on when and how they are deployed, because too many of these situations are occuring much more then they ever did in the past.
Uh huh,
lets get down to this, the military (and police) garner respect for the individual actions they take. Not because they slap on a uniform. There are bad soldiers (cowards and the like, or those who put their comrades in harms way from their actions), and there are bad cops.
A good cop, or a brave soldier deserve respect.
A bad cop or cowardly soldier deserves none. Merely being a cop or a soldier does not mean someone is immediately due respect. The actions they have taken in that role is what has earned them respect.
If you were an officer and grabbed a bleeding suspect when you didn't absolutely have to, you'd be in for a world of hell when you got back to the station. Because paying out for a cop who's died of AIDS or HepC is something no precinct wants to do. They'd gladly let the perp causing the problem take the health risk of the tazer rather than let their cops take the risk of getting scraped up with a bleeding combatant.
Afraid to get their hands dirty... damn straight.
Using Taser on handcuffed man 'not unreasonable,' says police watchdog
Juan....I don't have a link here as I heard this on the radio a few day's back. It was said
that Tasers have been used approximately 7000 times in Canada since they become
available to Canadian law enforcement. It didn't break it down by year or anything...
During the same story, it also mentioned that nine people have been shot and killed by
police in recent years and there seems to be a pattern. Nine for nine being Native. One
inquiry just complete (& thus the news story) and eight still to go...
Juan....I don't have a link here as I heard this on the radio a few day's back. It was said
that Tasers have been used approximately 7000 times in Canada since they become
available to Canadian law enforcement. It didn't break it down by year or anything...
During the same story, it also mentioned that nine people have been shot and killed by
police in recent years and there seems to be a pattern. Nine for nine being Native. One
inquiry just complete (& thus the news story) and eight still to go...
No charges for RCMP in airport Tasering: Report
No charges for RCMP in airport Tasering: Report
Mother of Tasered man 'very disappointed' Mounties won't be charged
By Jack KeatingDecember 11, 2008
VANCOUVER — The mother of a man who was Tasered and died at Vancouver airport said Thursday night she is "very disappointed" to learn the RCMP officers responsible for her son's death will apparently not be charged.
"I would like to see them charged with criminal charges," Zofia Cisowski told the Vancouver Province from her home in Kamloops.
She was incredulous when told that CTV News had reported that the Mounties would not be charged.
"How do you know?" she asked. "They didn't didn't make the decision yet. Tomorrow they will decide."
B.C. Criminal Justice officials have called a news conference for Friday morning.
An agitated Robert Dziekanski, a Polish immigrant, arrived at Vancouver airport in October 2007.
A videotape of his death showed four RCMP officers using a Taser on the man, who spoke no English, and then pinning him to the ground.
A decision not to charge the officers would allow them to testify at an inquiry into Dziekanski's death, which resumes Jan. 19.
"I am very disappointed because I am not sure about their decision. And I get angry too," said Cisowski. "But I am not sure about their decision. I am so disappointed. I am starting to worry about it. I can't say anything today."
Dziekanski's death prompted outrage over the use of Tasers.
Earlier this week, the RCMP and several municipal police forces, including all those in B.C., agreed to pull some of their Tasers from service after a media report found one model of the conducted energy devices could generate a higher voltage than the manufacturer's specifications.
© Copyright (c) The Province
Source: No charges for RCMP in airport Tasering: Report
No charges for RCMP in airport Tasering: Report
Mother of Tasered man 'very disappointed' Mounties won't be charged
By Jack KeatingDecember 11, 2008
VANCOUVER — The mother of a man who was Tasered and died at Vancouver airport said Thursday night she is "very disappointed" to learn the RCMP officers responsible for her son's death will apparently not be charged.
"I would like to see them charged with criminal charges," Zofia Cisowski told the Vancouver Province from her home in Kamloops.
She was incredulous when told that CTV News had reported that the Mounties would not be charged.
"How do you know?" she asked. "They didn't didn't make the decision yet. Tomorrow they will decide."
B.C. Criminal Justice officials have called a news conference for Friday morning.
An agitated Robert Dziekanski, a Polish immigrant, arrived at Vancouver airport in October 2007.
A videotape of his death showed four RCMP officers using a Taser on the man, who spoke no English, and then pinning him to the ground.
A decision not to charge the officers would allow them to testify at an inquiry into Dziekanski's death, which resumes Jan. 19.
"I am very disappointed because I am not sure about their decision. And I get angry too," said Cisowski. "But I am not sure about their decision. I am so disappointed. I am starting to worry about it. I can't say anything today."
Dziekanski's death prompted outrage over the use of Tasers.
Earlier this week, the RCMP and several municipal police forces, including all those in B.C., agreed to pull some of their Tasers from service after a media report found one model of the conducted energy devices could generate a higher voltage than the manufacturer's specifications.
© Copyright (c) The Province
Source: No charges for RCMP in airport Tasering: Report
No charges for RCMP in airport Tasering: Report
I'm very disgusted, but not surprised at all. This decision leaves a very nasty
taste in my mouth. I honestly don't know what else to say at this point...
I'm very disgusted, but not surprised at all. This decision leaves a very nasty
taste in my mouth. I honestly don't know what else to say at this point...
A while back I watched a S'toon city cop collar a husky fella, (probably late teens to early 20's) just outside the Midtown Mall. He held the kid against a railing, the kid was resisting aggressively, but the cop became even more forceful and yelled, "stop resisting". By his time I was only 5' away and the kid had already submitted to arrest. Now this was a big young punk with a real 'tude who was obiously resisting and struggling against the cop's force, I watched the whole thing as I approached the mall entrance from 22nd st., this one cop had subdued him in a matter of seconds after an obvious chase.
Now why is it that 4 cops cannot subdue a middle aged person physically and have to resort to using a Taser? Why did they have to use force anyway? Robert Dziekansky wasn't threatening bodily harm to anyone but himself until the cops arrived? Do S'toon cops have better training than the RCMP?
Maybe it's the pack mentality, I've noticed that when a Taser is used, there is often more than one cop involved, sometimes several.
Now why is it that 4 cops cannot subdue a middle aged person physically and have to resort to using a Taser? Why did they have to use force anyway? Robert Dziekansky wasn't threatening bodily harm to anyone but himself until the cops arrived? Do S'toon cops have better training than the RCMP?
Maybe it's the pack mentality, I've noticed that when a Taser is used, there is often more than one cop involved, sometimes several.
No charges for RCMP in airport Tasering: Report
This may sound counter intuitive (read the Amnesty International Report), but that
makes sense with one officer present. The MORE officers present, the GREATER
the odds that a Taser will be used.
This may sound counter intuitive (read the Amnesty International Report), but that
makes sense with one officer present. The MORE officers present, the GREATER
the odds that a Taser will be used.