The Church is not the Enemy

[Nascar_James]

There's a debate taking place in the British House of Lords at present, on the subject of assisted suicide. Because of the the special position of religious groups within British society, the 29 unelected "Lords Spiritual" are entitled to speak and vote on the issue. These seem reasonable enough people, well educated and compassionate. They argue that, whilst they can understand how it must feel for the parents of a terminally ill child, or an elderly victim of disease, life "is a gift from God, and only he can decide when the time is right to end it."

Let us be thankful that there are still rational folks with morals and values left in this world. My hat's off to the British House of Lords. Perfectly valid argument on their part.

 

[no1important]

RE: The Church is not the

Well Holland is not that much of a journey from England.

 

[TenPenny]

There's a debate taking place in the British House of Lords at present, on the subject of assisted suicide. Because of the the special position of religious groups within British society, the 29 unelected "Lords Spiritual" are entitled to speak and vote on the issue. These seem reasonable enough people, well educated and compassionate. They argue that, whilst they can understand how it must feel for the parents of a terminally ill child, or an elderly victim of disease, life "is a gift from God, and only he can decide when the time is right to end it."

Let us be thankful that there are still rational folks with morals and values left in this world. My hat's off to the British House of Lords. Perfectly valid argument on their part.

Perfectly valid argument? So you're against capital punishment? And against war? Glad to hear it. Are you going to modify your previous posts now to reflect this position? And you're against hunting and, by extension, guns, too? After all, life is a gift from God, and only he can decide when the time is right to end it. That said, why would people need guns?

I'm glad you've adopted such a progressive point of view. Did this forum help you reach that conclusion?

 

[Hard-Luck Henry]

Let us be thankful that there are still rational folks with morals and values left in this world. My hat's off to the British House of Lords. Perfectly valid argument on their part.

You're pulling my pisser, aren't you, James? A valid argument? :lol:

 

[Shiva]

Of course there are "reasonable" christians around,Shiva,

Oh sure, I hope I didn't imply otherwise.

but let me give you a simple, illustration of why i feel it's well past time that we stopped quietly accepting that religious groups hold undue influence over our political processes:

There's a debate taking place in the British House of Lords at present, on the subject of assisted suicide. Because of the the special position of religious groups within British society, the 29 unelected "Lords Spiritual" are entitled to speak and vote on the issue. These seem reasonable enough people, well educated and compassionate. They argue that, whilst they can understand how it must feel for the parents of a terminally ill child, or an elderly victim of disease, life "is a gift from God, and only he can decide when the time is right to end it."

As someone who knows that statement is complete nonsense, I find it offensive that these people have the power to perpetuate suffering on that basis. I'll take every opportunity I can to dispute that sort of outlook, not because it's a fetish of mine; I see it more as a duty - because to do otherwise simply maintains an antiquainted status quo. They're a vocal, highly visible, highly influential part of society, to stand back for fear of offending their irrational sensibilities would be plain wrong.

It seems that that's more of a problem with a lack of a democratic system, though, no? Religion, and any secular system of belief, are all ideologies, and religion informs the decisions of its adherents as do the ideologies of any other member of parliament or Lord. The problem here is that their views are being imposed undemocratically (presumably) against the will of the people. If the people agreed, there would be no problem with their point of view. The answer is more democracy not necessarily less religion...

 

[Hard-Luck Henry]

Well, quite, but religion is a bastion of undemocratic practices - I can't think of anything more hierarchical.

" "The rich man at his castle, The poor man at his gate, God made them high and lowly, and ordered their estate"

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Why would your average peasant be willing to wage war for the sake of making the rich richer? Tell them that it’s in the name of God, and they’ll do it, because they were illiterate and couldn’t know what the bible actually said.

Interesting point you bring up Peppy...and it's likely that this is the reason that Christianity was started in the first place...to send the masses into a tizzy on a whim...

The idea behind starting a religion to control the masses predates Christianity by about 400 years...look up Critias and the 30 Tyrants...

Think of a world with no church. What would it be like? Well, it certainly wouldn’t be happy happy peaceful. People by nature are selfish and evil. Without the structure and morals of the church, the only difference between us and animals would be that we’d have less hair and maybe more weapons.

That would assume that morality can only be derived from religion which of course is a load of bullshit...

I am truly glad that in Canada we have a church that has influenced political policy.

Ummm...no we haven't...well not in the last 50 years or so anyway...

Recognition of same sex marriage does a dandy job of invalidating your assertions...a law that was passed despite the religious beliefs of the Prime Minister...and I say kudos to him for taking that stand...I know of leaders of other countries that don't have that fortitude to act in the best interests of all...right Nascar...

 

[Nascar_James]

I know of leaders of other countries that don't have that fortitude to act in the best interests of all...right Nascar...

hmmmm ...

 

[Vanni Fucci]

I do have to say, though, that's it's either someone with an axe to grind, or someone with a very unsophisticated view of history, that thinks that religion is the real cause of violence in our history.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/negative.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/intol_bibl.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/curr_war.htm

Current conflicts and wars:

It is important to realize that most of the world's current "hot spots" have a complex interaction of economic, racial, ethnic, religious, and other factors. We list below some conflicts which have as their base at least some degree of religious intolerance:

Afghanistan -- Extreme, radical Fundamentalist Muslim terrorist groups & non-Muslims

Bosnia -- Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic), Muslims

Côte d'Ivoire -- Muslims, Indigenous, Christian

Cyprus -- Christians & Muslims

East Timor -- Christians & Muslims

India -- Animists, Hindus, Muslims & Sikhs

Indonesia, province of Ambon -- Christians & Muslims

Indonesia, province of Halmahera -- Christians & Muslims

Kashmir -- Hindus & Muslims

Kosovo -- Serbian Orthodox Christians & Muslims

Kurdistan -- Christians, Muslims

Macedonia -- Macedonian Orthodox Christians & Muslims

Middle East -- Jews, Muslims, & Christians

Nigeria -- Christians, Animists, & Muslims

Northern Ireland -- Protestants, Catholics

Pakistan -- Suni & Shi'ite Muslims

Philippines -- Christians & Muslims

Russia, Chechnya -- Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims

South Africa -- Animists & "Witches"

Sri Lanka -- Buddhists & Hindus

Sudan -- Animists, Christians & Muslims

Tibet -- Buddhists & Communists*

Uganda -- Animists, Christians, & Muslims

* We are defining "religion" rather loosely here to include Communism.

 

[no1important]

RE: The Church is not the

Funny how christian seems to come up a lot.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Re: RE: The Church is not the

Funny how christian seems to come up a lot.

...and Muslims too...but then intolerance is deeply entrenched in the scriptures of both of those religions...the only one that really surprises me is the Buddhists attacking Christians in Sri Lanka...Buddhists of all people... 8O

 

[Shiva]

I do have to say, though, that's it's either someone with an axe to grind, or someone with a very unsophisticated view of history, that thinks that religion is the real cause of violence in our history.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/negative.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/intol_bibl.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/curr_war.htm

The website you're quoting from was inspired by a person who had already determined in his opinion based on his anecdotal experience that religion is a cause of conflict. The website then goes on to attempt to establish and document this pre-determined conclusion.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/history.htm

The concept of an Internet web site devoted to religious tolerance was triggered by three events in the spring of 1995:
bullet The war in Bosnia Herzegovina: The TV evening news reported at least one new atrocity every day from part of the former Yugoslavia. No matter which network we watched, the war was continually described as an "ethnic" conflict. I was angered at this, believing it to be actually a religious disagreement, driven by intolerance of other faiths. Yugoslavia is located between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox spheres of influence. It was also sandwiched between countries whose main religions were Islam and Christianity. So, although the people of the country were of one ethnic origin, they followed three different faith traditions: Islam, Roman Catholicism and Serbian Orthodox Christianity. Various political leaders capitalized upon the religious frictions in the country to pursue their nationalist aims. And so, the world watched the most atrocious attempts at religiously motivated genocide, including a return of European death camps. Prevention of more Bosnias in the future, requires the promotion of religious tolerance, and a general understanding of the evil acts that religious belief can sometimes generate.

Current conflicts and wars:

It is important to realize that most of the world's current "hot spots" have a complex interaction of economic, racial, ethnic, religious, and other factors. We list below some conflicts which have as their base at least some degree of religious intolerance:

So he mentions that there a huge number of other important factors at work, and proceeds to label religion as the cause of conflict? Sorry, too biased to be believeable. As I mentioned before, religion is often a social tool used to force others to conform to a particular behaviour or way of life due to its unquestionability as a perfectly inspired revelation, that unquestionability making it perfect for forcing a particular view on the people, but the end goal is political. When economic, racial, ethnic, and other factors are all recognised as a part of the conflicts this website goes on to mention, zeroing in on religious tolerance as a solution to complex social conflict is not likely to be efficacious in removing inherently non-religious problems (they're not religious problems if they're ethnic, racial, economic, etc).

 

[Vanni Fucci]

The website you're quoting from was inspired by a person who had already determined in his opinion based on his anecdotal experience that religion is a cause of conflict. The website then goes on to attempt to establish and document this pre-determined conclusion.

One would have to be blinded by faith not to see that for themselves though...

Current conflicts and wars:

It is important to realize that most of the world's current "hot spots" have a complex interaction of economic, racial, ethnic, religious, and other factors. We list below some conflicts which have as their base at least some degree of religious intolerance:

So he mentions that there a huge number of other important factors at work, and proceeds to label religion as the cause of conflict? Sorry, too biased to be believeable. As I mentioned before, religion is often a social tool used to force others to conform to a particular behaviour or way of life due to its unquestionability as a perfectly inspired revelation, that unquestionability making it perfect for forcing a particular view on the people, but the end goal is political. When economic, racial, ethnic, and other factors are all recognised as a part of the conflicts this website goes on to mention, zeroing in on religious tolerance as a solution to complex social conflict is not likely to be efficacious in removing inherently non-religious problems (they're not religious problems if they're ethnic, racial, economic, etc).[/quote]

BBC World Service -- Racism and Relgion

Doesn't leave much room for non-religious problems, does it?

 

[Said1]

RE: The Church is not the

Hmmm. If you go through the above list of "conflicts" it may be important to note that they have their roots in Muslim conquest. One can argue that expansion of the Ottoman empire wasn't religiously motivated, as it was not - although converting to Islam was usually a condition of living under the empire. I will never believe the reforming Sultans were tolerante, the Tasimat era was pressure from the European powers - period end of discussion.

I forget what my point was....oh yeah, the above conflicts are both religiously and territorily motiviated. Had their been no Musliim invasion in most places, there would be not problems......for the most part.....I think.

 

[Nascar_James]

I know of leaders of other countries that don't have that fortitude to act in the best interests of all...right Nascar...

hmmmm ...

You're right Vanni. I could think of a perfect example ... Chavez.

 

[peapod]

:bs:
Typical neocon smear, the whole planet now knows the kind of hypocritical methods your government imploys to fill its own coffers, you hypocrite nascar, you blather about your holy than tho, but all you have shown here is what a greedy hypocrite you are.

 

[unclepercy]

Re: RE: The Church is not the

Most of us on the left have grown up and are past the believing in fairytales stage, in our lives.

Religion is behind every major conflict in the world - past, present and future.

This has got to be the most panoramically obtuse statement I have read on the forum so far. Show me proof - not opinion - that the American Civil War and the Viet Nam War were based on religion.

Uncle

PS: It's MONEY - not religion.

 

[no1important]

Re: RE: The Church is not the

Most of us on the left have grown up and are past the believing in fairytales stage, in our lives.

Religion is behind every major conflict in the world - past, present and future.

This has got to be the most panoramically obtuse statement I have read on the forum so far. Show me proof - not opinion - that the American Civil War and the Viet Nam War were based on religion.

Uncle

PS: It's MONEY - not religion.

Religion in the Civil War: The Northern Side

First, the churches emphasized that the Union had to be preserved because of the special place that America occupied in world history. With its republican institutions, democratic ideals, and Christian values, the United States supposedly stood in the vanguard of civilization's forward march.

Next, Christian ministers often portrayed the war for the Union in millennial terms. Drawing on the imagery of the twentieth chapter of Revelation and on other portions of the Bible describing events near the close of history, they suggested that a Northern victory might prepare the way for the Kingdom of God on earth

Religion may not of been the very start of it,(BUT MORE THAN LIKELY DID) but it influenced and had an impact on it.

Reguarding Vietnam, US went to war because of the communist's over there. May not be directly tied to religion but since at the time communists were godless people and it was 11 years after "under god" was added to American pledge to prove to the "evil commies" americans were good "christian folk". So indirectly it had religion behind it. And since most American presidents pretty well incorperate their religious beliefs into their decisions and polices, yes religion was partly involved.

PS: It's MONEY - not religion.

Its money from religion. Brainwashing people. Religion=Control.

BTW- Where was your so called god during, Holocaust, 9/11, USS Cole, Oklahoma city bombing, Katrina or any other natural or man made diaster? mmmm Maybe its time you realize organized religion is nothing more than a cult that takes members money to pursue their own political interests, in the name of a non existant man in the sky.

 

[Martin Le Acadien]

Sheesh-Religion AGAIN.

Some believe, other don't, everybody has FREEWILL to choose!

What causes the misery of the world, MONEY.

More specifically, the Love of Money is the Root of all Evil.

If somebody listened to the teachings of Religion, it would be bundled up as thus:

1. Do unto others as you wish to be done.

2. Love (care for) you fellow Man or woman. (Wish them no harm)

3. Love theyself and be true.

Anything else is the work of evil!


(NOT WISHING TO OFFEND THE VOODOO HIGH PRIESTESSES LIVING AT MY RESIDENCE)
RUE DE JOLIE FILLES

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Re: RE: The Church is not the Enemy

Sheesh-Religion AGAIN.

For some, it will always come back to this...I know it does for me anyway...

Some believe, other don't, everybody has FREEWILL to choose!

You're a smart guy Martin, so let me ask you, how does someone whose been told all their lives that contradicting church doctrine, or the Bible will lead them straight to hell have the freewill to choose what they believe?