Sikhs Allowed To Carry Kirpan (knives) To Olympic Events

[Outta here]

Many people's religious beliefs mandate that they must take steps to protect the unborn. I wonder if you have a problem with that. Some religious beliefs are such that a woman can not refuse her husband. I guess you're probably good with that as well.

brings to mind this oldie joke - it's still amusing to me, but it also illustrates the importance of allowing religions to evolve with the societies they serve.


[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]1. Leviticus 25.44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not to Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21.7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness (Leviticus15.19-24). The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord. (Leviticus 1.9) The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35.2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Leviticus11.10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there degrees of abomination?

7. Leviticus.21.20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Leviticus19.27. How should they die?

9. I know from Leviticus 11.6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean. May I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Leviticus 19.19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Leviticus 24.10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, as we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Leviticus 20.14) [/FONT]

 

[Colpy]

We discussed this point in my History of Science class at SFU. And Newton, Copernicus and Da Vinci did not consider themselves scientists because the word wasn't invented yet, Newton and the others called themselves natural philosophers. Yeah, I know full well they were all very religious at this time. You know, Christiandom. Now gone.

They didn't know they were living through a Scientific Revolution, but they were the makers of it, that was one of the ironies of it. They were destroying the worldview they grew up with.

It is hard to believe they were simply using observation and logic to create a new cosmology that did not rely on faith or magic. The secular age began and went into overdrive with the discovery of America.

The prof had a funny cartoon on her door with Galileo using the words orbit, planet and satellites I think. In the bubbles of the churchmen, are question marks. They had no clue what he was talking about because their worldview was static with the earth at the centre. Because he was right, Galileo is remembered and the churchmen are forgotten.

Let's avoid an endless discussion on the relative vacuity of anyone, professor or no, that would elevate the scientific intellect of the "natural philosophers" while denegrating their personal theological considerations, dismissing that area of their intellectual persona with a shrug and a sneer......

And move on.

October 15, 2003
The United States of America
The indisputedly most powerful single nation on earth, the most technologically advanced, the nation with the largest number of scientific Nobel Prize winners.....

A Harris Poll: 79% of respondants believe in God, 66% with "absolute certainty".
Harris Interactive | The Harris Poll - While Most Americans Believe in God, Only 36% Attend a Religious Service Once a Month or More Often

I suggest to you that your announcement of the death of Chrisendom is somewhat premature.

No matter what your prof told you.

 

[Goober]

......except that teenager in Montreal a while back....but I think that one is still
ongoing so it might not count yet (trial may not be done, etc...).

Ron my friend - Spent some time on Google - I could not find one incident, US Canada, UK -where a Sikh was convicted of using his Kirpan in an assault - a case in TO is still ongoing.

Sikh teen acquitted of kirpan assault - thestar.com


MONTREAL–In a case that threatens to once again thrust Quebec's uneasy accommodation of religious minorities into the spotlight, a judge has hinted that nationality indeed played a role in a 13-year-old Sikh boy being charged with brandishing his ceremonial dagger in a dispute with some schoolmates.
"If the three boys had the same nationality, and the same faith, this case would not have ended up before the court," youth court judge Gilles Ouellet said in giving the boy an absolute discharge yesterday.
The boy, who can't be named as he is a minor, was acquitted of assault with his kirpan, which Sikhs usually keep discreetly sheathed. Ouellet, however, found the boy guilty of using his long hairpin in the assault, but by discharging him freed the boy from a criminal record.
The judge's remarks didn't sit well with Crown prosecutor Sylvie Lemieux, who questioned their timing. "I don't think those comments were appropriate, especially given the evidence the judge saw." She said her office will review the ruling before deciding whether to appeal.
Civil rights lawyer Julius Grey, who defended the teen, said Quebec has been "allergic" to the kirpan issue for a long time.
Grey was the lawyer involved in the Supreme Court's 2006 decision to overrule a Montreal school board's ban of the ceremonial daggers as an infringement on the right to freedom of religion. The teen involved in this case attends a school that is part of the same board.
He emphasized that the ruling will have "no implications" for the kirpan, adding that this case should never have been sent to the courts. "I think the boys came from different milieus and the parents didn't understand each other."
Montreal's Sikh community was happy with the result because, as family friend Ishan Singh explained, the result has nothing to do with the kirpan. It could be any youth, and any threatening object.
The incident was sparked last Sept. 11 when the boy and two of his friends told the two alleged victims to stop following them during a lunch break. They alleged that the Sikh boy assaulted them by threatening them with the hairpin and one of them said he was poked with the kirpan, which was wrapped in a cloth and worn under clothes.
Ouellet said there was "technically" enough evidence to convict on the single assault charge involving the hairpin, which is used to tuck hair strands into a turban. But he said he gave the unconditional discharge because it is time for everyone involved to move on.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

So what was the deal here, Goober? He presumably attacked them with a hairpin, that much is obvious (although how one boy can threaten two boys with a hairpin is beyond me).

But what was the deal with kirpan? Did the victims claim that he tried to stab them with the kirpan when it was wrapped in cloth?

Anyway, the judge seemed to take a dim view about the whole thing, he thought the boy was charged just because he was a Sikh.

Is this the incidence you were referring to, Ron? Anyway, to my knowledge, there has not been a single incidence of a kirpan being involved in violence.

 

[Outta here]

So what was the deal here, Goober? He presumably attacked them with a hairpin, that much is obvious (although how one boy can threaten two boys with a hairpin is beyond me).

But what was the deal with kirpan? Did the victims claim that he tried to stab them with the kirpan when it was wrapped in cloth?

Anyway, the judge seemed to take a dim view about the whole thing, he thought the boy was charged just because he was a Sikh.

Is this the incidence you were referring to, Ron? Anyway, to my knowledge, there has not been a single incidence of a kirpan being involved in violence.

The problem is not an issue of religious discrimination, it's about according special rights to someone on the basis of their religion... imo that's reverse discrimination

..... and whether or not there's any past or future attacks with a kirpan specifically, a precedent is set now..

 

[taxslave]

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

R. J. Wiedemann LtCol. USMC Ret


If they are allowed to carry knives then I should be able to carry weapons also. The following quote is mine and many others creed. To us it is just as strong as any religious oath.

This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.

My rifle, without me, is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will...

My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...

My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will ever guard it against the ravages of weather and damage as I will ever guard my legs, my arms, my eyes and my heart against damage. I will keep my rifle clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will...

Before God, I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We
are the saviors of my life.

So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!

Do you and your rifle masturbate together too?

 

[Goober]

So what was the deal here, Goober? He presumably attacked them with a hairpin, that much is obvious (although how one boy can threaten two boys with a hairpin is beyond me).

But what was the deal with kirpan? Did the victims claim that he tried to stab them with the kirpan when it was wrapped in cloth?

Anyway, the judge seemed to take a dim view about the whole thing, he thought the boy was charged just because he was a Sikh.

Is this the incidence you were referring to, Ron? Anyway, to my knowledge, there has not been a single incidence of a kirpan being involved in violence.

SJP - Your words: "so what was the deal here:: you again missed the point. No recorded incident of attacks with a kirpan - That said - it does not mean it has not ocurred now does it?

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

Let's avoid an endless discussion on the relative vacuity of anyone, professor or no, that would elevate the scientific intellect of the "natural philosophers" while denegrating their personal theological considerations, dismissing that area of their intellectual persona with a shrug and a sneer......

And move on.

October 15, 2003
The United States of America
The indisputedly most powerful single nation on earth, the most technologically advanced, the nation with the largest number of scientific Nobel Prize winners.....

A Harris Poll: 79% of respondants believe in God, 66% with "absolute certainty".
Harris Interactive | The Harris Poll - While Most Americans Believe in God, Only 36% Attend a Religious Service Once a Month or More Often

I suggest to you that your announcement of the death of Chrisendom is somewhat premature.

No matter what your prof told you.

Denigrating Newton etc? How?

Denigrating the so-called church fathers is fine with me though because they tried to stop progress.

The number of churchgoing people is dropping over the past few decades. That is progress. Most Americans are such conformists, they simply follow the herd.

 

[TenPenny]

The indisputedly most powerful single nation on earth, the most technologically advanced, the nation with the largest number of scientific Nobel Prize winners.....

All based on using algebra, which was invented by ....

 

[Goober]

All based on using algebra, which was invented by ....

Arabs

 

[Downhome_Woman]

Wow. I never realized that there was an actual religion that had firearms as religious symbols. Oops - the Marines are a good group of peoplee - but they aren't a religious group.
Kirpan 1 - Rifle - 0

 

[Colpy]

Denigrating Newton etc? How?

Denigrating the so-called church fathers is fine with me though because they tried to stop progress.

The number of churchgoing people is dropping over the past few decades. That is progress. Most Americans are such conformists, they simply follow the herd.

Yeah
Okay
Americans are such "follow the herd" people...:roll:

Soooo,
In Canada, 72% profess a belief in God.
One in four don't believe in God, poll finds - thestar.com
No matter how you cut it, religion in general, and Chrisendom in particular, are far from dead.


http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/434725

 

[Ron in Regina]

Quoting SirJosephPorter Was that an incidence involving a kirpan, Ron? Do you ahve a link to it?​

I was going from memory this afternoon as it was a while since I'd read about that.

Here's a link: CBC News - Montreal - Teen charged in kirpan assault denies using dagger as weapon

This would have been back in Feb. that I would have read about this....looks like
the boy won his case. I googled "Kirpan Montreal Teenager" & got 7,740 hits.

 

[damngrumpy]

There is no bloody way this should happen. In this country if you go about with a knife or handgun or walk down the street with a rifle, the law would be on you like
crap on a blanket. The Kirpan is a dagger, in this country that is a knife.
Religious preference, that is all we need. This is why I am more and more moving
away from thinking multiculturalism is a good idea.
If one group can have weapons why not the rest?
How does this play with riding on city buses, or charters on their way to the games
sight. Remember buses and planes now say you can't have weapons on board.
or are we going to have kirpan buses only?
If we are going to have special treatment for some, then I want special treatment.
I am left handed and I want left handed entrances and exits, I want special left handed line ups for tickets to things, According to the mainstream, I am a minority
so I should get special treatment. If that sounds silly it is, but it demonstrates a
Canadian is a Canadian, and we shouldn't make some more equal than others.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Interesting points you bring up damngrumpy. The Airplane or Greyhound scenario.
Here in Regina, If you have to go to provincial court (or even into the building to pay
a speeding ticket, etc...) you have to empty your pockets & remove your belt to pass
through a metal detector....and you can't take a pocket knife (tiny) of fingernail clippers
into the court house.

Where would the Kirpan fit into these situations?

 

[Outta here]

hmmm is a kirpan less lethal than a boxcutter... or that tube of toothpaste they nabbed from me last time I flew?

 

[Ron in Regina]

If a Sikh had been on "that" Greyhound way back when, he might have
prevented that NutJob from beheading that young man with his Kirpan,
but then if Colpy was on that same Greyhound with his HighPower, or a
busload of Colpy's....the outcome could have been better for that young
man too. :-|

 

[SirJosephPorter]

SJP - Your words: "so what was the deal here:: you again missed the point. No recorded incident of attacks with a kirpan - That said - it does not mean it has not ocurred now does it?

Goober, this was not a recorded incidence of an attack by a kirpan. This was a recorded incidence of somebody being charged with attack by kirpan, a totally different thing altogether.

In theory, any prosecutor can file hundreds of charges involving kirpan, that does not make them true. In this instance, the judge said there was no basis whatever for the charge of assault by kirpan. He even implied that it was a malicious charge, probably filed because the defendant was a Sikh.

We don’t know that there was a kirpan involved in the attack, the judge said that there was enough evidence to prove attack by a hairpin, but that is about it.

Charges filed mean nothing, any ideologue can file charges. Charges proved, conviction arising as a result (or guilty plea) is something else.



Now, if you show a case where somebody was convicted of attack by a kirpan, that would be a different thing altogether.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Wow. I never realized that there was an actual religion that had firearms as religious symbols. Oops - the Marines are a good group of peoplee - but they aren't a religious group.
Kirpan 1 - Rifle - 0

Indeed, Downhome Woman. Now, if somebody claims that rifle is a religious symbol for him and his religion requires him to carry it with him all the time (and backs it up with a Holy Book, a God, Commandments, beliefs and creed etc.), I can well see him being permitted to carry a rifle to public events. With the following provisions:

As I said before, safety considerations trump any freedom of religion. So if he constructs a miniature rifle, say 5 cm long, which can only fire a grain of sand at a time, not to exceed say, 5 km/hour, such a rife does not pose any threat to public safety. He probably would be permitted to carry such a rifle (well wrapped up in a cloth).

That is what we are talking about here, with reference to the kirpan.

 

[Cliffy]

If a Sikh had been on "that" Greyhound way back when, he might have
prevented that NutJob from beheading that young man with his Kirpan,
but then if Colpy was on that same Greyhound with his HighPower, or a
busload of Colpy's....the outcome could have been better for that young
man too. :-|

Yup! There would have been a lot more carnage.;-)