Rwandan Genocide was committed by Christians??

[gopher]

it was a bigoted class war. Pure and simple. Kind of like some of the minds around here, without the pure.

Sorta like racist white "Christians" killing Ixil Christians in Guatemala, right?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Yeah, some of the people involved might call themselves Christians, but I think they're lying or deluded. They don't represent any version of Christianity that makes any sense to me. Same in Northern Ireland: nominally Catholics versus Protestants, both Christian sects, and they euphemize it nicely by calling themselves republicans or reformers or something like that. But whatever those people are, Christians they are not. Any person who truly understands and has internalized Christ's message would not behave that way. Even an unrepentant old atheist like me can recognize that much. Jesus may or may not have been divine (I vote not) and the Son of God (again I vote not), but he spoke good sense according to all the reports we have of him. Mostly. Care for each other, love one another, help each other, seems like pretty elementary morality to me. People who can't or won't do that, people who will draw an artificial line between themselves and certain others who are trivially different, cannot legitimately call themselves Christian. The essence of Christianity, according to everything I've read about it, is that it's inclusive, accepting, and forgiving. Can you ask for better than that? I don't think so.

 

[Colpy]

Yeah, some of the people involved might call themselves Christians, but I think they're lying or deluded. They don't represent any version of Christianity that makes any sense to me. Same in Northern Ireland: nominally Catholics versus Protestants, both Christian sects, and they euphemize it nicely by calling themselves republicans or reformers or something like that. But whatever those people are, Christians they are not. Any person who truly understands and has internalized Christ's message would not behave that way. Even an unrepentant old atheist like me can recognize that much. Jesus may or may not have been divine (I vote not) and the Son of God (again I vote not), but he spoke good sense according to all the reports we have of him. Mostly. Care for each other, love one another, help each other, seems like pretty elementary morality to me. People who can't or won't do that, people who will draw an artificial line between themselves and certain others who are trivially different, cannot legitimately call themselves Christian. The essence of Christianity, according to everything I've read about it, is that it's inclusive, accepting, and forgiving. Can you ask for better than that? I don't think so.

Good post, Dexter.

Thank you.

Although I personally increasingly accept the deeply held religious view of my parents.........

 

[gopher]

Excellent post Dex. You should get lots of good rep points for that one (you certainly did from me).

But note how Jesus said that not only are those who take bad actions sinful, those who even think bad thoughts about others are equally sinful. Even the thought constitutes evil according to him. Therefore, those who are prejudiced, hateful, demand death or suffering of innocents, and who wish harm upon anyone are just as sinful as those who commit such harm.

That would put the salvation of a lot of so-called Christians on this forum who wish harm upon innocent Muslims into divine jeopardy.

 

[EastSideScotian]

That would put the salvation of a lot of so-called Christians on this forum who wish harm upon innocent Muslims into divine jeopardy.

Yea pretty sad. I have to keep pointing out to several Members, the Love your Neighbour Part of the Bible. It also doesnt say one single thing about Hating Muslims I might ad. If a Muslim wishes to hate a Christain, thats fine with me, how does it effect anything.

Thruth is Christains are Historicly perfect, and it seems to members on this forum like to act like we are. We arent, but we can work on it now and here. Same goes for Muslims and Jews.

It also is interesting to whtach people who are blindly pro-islam too, and make it seem like thye are the ones that are the good guys. Id like to point out that, these "muslims" are nothing but extreamist who hide behind their faith, and feel it nessary to act like it is thier faith to get the acceptance and followers from true Muslims...But they are not true Muslims and they should not be felt badly for ethier.

 

[ottawabill]

Yea pretty sad. I have to keep pointing out to several Members, the Love your Neighbour Part of the Bible. It also doesnt say one single thing about Hating Muslims I might ad. If a Muslim wishes to hate a Christain, thats fine with me, how does it effect anything.

Thruth is Christains are Historicly perfect, and it seems to members on this forum like to act like we are. We arent, but we can work on it now and here. Same goes for Muslims and Jews.

It also is interesting to whtach people who are blindly pro-islam too, and make it seem like thye are the ones that are the good guys. Id like to point out that, these "muslims" are nothing but extreamist who hide behind their faith, and feel it nessary to act like it is thier faith to get the acceptance and followers from true Muslims...But they are not true Muslims and they should not be felt badly for ethier.

THANK YOU!!

you have made the point I had been trying too but without the same results....

The faith and teahings are perfect..it is the followers who are flawed....then people jump all over these flawed charaters and attach their actions to the religon..a silly move...

 

[hermanntrude]

this genocide was not commited by christians but by evil bastards. categorisation. labelling. causes trouble.

I can tell u they weren't christians because any half-decent christian would know that a major rule (known to the experts as a "commandment" is "thou shalt not kill". If someone breaks a commandment can you call them a christian? Possibly. If they repeatedly break it in the space of a few hours? probably not.

 

[ottawabill]

I know many who call themselves by a religous label, who never go to their church, never think twice about it, or the faith, but if asked will tell you they are Catholic, Anglican , Jewish faith etc..

My God, Northern Ireland conflict was all twisted around 2 sects of the faith when the whole thing was between British occupation, and Irish freedom... Just that the only noticable difference you could come up with was the 2 ways they practiced their faith......That is abusing the faith, it has little to do with what is expected of you and only gives ammunition to some faith haters on this forum.

 

[gopher]

http://www.counterpunch.org/cook02222005.html

[SIZE=-1]Elie Wiesel said of the Nazi perpetrators of the holocaust: "All the killers were Christians The Nazi system was the consequence of a movement of ideas and followed a strict logic; it did not arise in a void but had its roots deep in a tradition that prophesied it, prepared for it, and brought it to maturity. That tradition was inseparable from the past of Christian, civilized Europe." Wiesel's observation implies that the Nazi holocaust uitlized the belief structures in the church and the faithful's acceptance of them as articulated by their leaders to carry forward the devastation of the Jews. Both trends were in operation as the Nazi leadership imposed its will on the German citizenry while enunciating the innate superiority of the German nation.



naturally, some critics here will say "blame Muslims" ...
[/SIZE]

 

[hermanntrude]

i'll say it again.

If we blame it on any one group of people we will effectively be slandering some of the members of that group. To blame "christians" for one awful situation is to blame millions of people who actually do follow the commandments and actually DON'T kill people or hurt them or do anything deemed wrong by the bible without at least seeking forgiveness and trying not to do it again. To blame "muslims" "hindus" "schizophrenics" or "black people" for any attrocity just tars the whole group, most of whom were not involved, with the same brush. It's wrong. Don't do it.

I agree that various religions have in their writings and philosophies some words which can be used (abused) in order to make up some spurious justification for committing horrible crimes. But this is ABuse and the decision to do it or not do it lies with the individual.

 

[ottawabill]

i'll say it again.

If we blame it on any one group of people we will effectively be slandering some of the members of that group. To blame "christians" for one awful situation is to blame millions of people who actually do follow the commandments and actually DON'T kill people or hurt them or do anything deemed wrong by the bible without at least seeking forgiveness and trying not to do it again. To blame "muslims" "hindus" "schizophrenics" or "black people" for any attrocity just tars the whole group, most of whom were not involved, with the same brush. It's wrong. Don't do it.

I agree that various religions have in their writings and philosophies some words which can be used (abused) in order to make up some spurious justification for committing horrible crimes. But this is ABuse and the decision to do it or not do it lies with the individual.

Amen!!

 

[the caracal kid]

hermanntrude,

I agree with you on the dangers and effects of broad categorization.

However,

We must be also aware of the dangers of revisionism such as we see in modern times with "revisonist christianiy", for example.

 

[EastSideScotian]

hermanntrude,

I agree with you on the dangers and effects of broad categorization.

However,

We must be also aware of the dangers of revisionism such as we see in modern times with "revisonist christianiy", for example.

Whats a Revisonist Christain In your OPinion?

 

[ottawabill]

hermanntrude,

I agree with you on the dangers and effects of broad categorization.

However,

We must be also aware of the dangers of revisionism such as we see in modern times with "revisonist christianiy", for example.

I just wonder do you have more than one issue (thought) in your head kiddo

 

[the caracal kid]

Whats a Revisonist Christain In your OPinion?

When we look at the basis of "what it takes to be a christian?", we see it ultimately boils down to acceptance/beleif that a man died on a cross AND rose from the dead. Thats it. Thats all it takes to be a christian. Revisionist christians are people that decide they don't like a particular part of the theology and/or history and thus proclaim it not part of "the real christianity". This has happened exactly how so many sects of christianity formed. The danger is in thinking that somehow "that is not a real christian" actually somehow erases the history and the potential for that history to repeat itself.

I just wonder do you have more than one issue (thought) in your head kiddo

thousands. how about you?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

... ultimately boils down to acceptance/beleif that a man died on a cross AND rose from the dead. Thats it. Thats all it takes to be a christian.

Surely it's a little more subtle than that, isn't it? Don't you also have to believe certain things about who he was, why he died, and what it's supposed to mean?

 

[the caracal kid]

Surely it's a little more subtle than that, isn't it? Don't you also have to believe certain things about who he was, why he died, and what it's supposed to mean?

The rising from the dead ties into the why and who, but the critical point is that he did rise from the dead. (otherwise he was just another doomsday prophet of the time, of which there were many)

 

[Dexter Sinister]

...the critical point is that he did rise from the dead.

Granted, that is the critical point , but it's not the only point. It's a necessary but not a sufficient condition. Other cultures have believed other characters rose from the dead--Osiris for instance--but that didn't make them Christians. There's a little more to it than simply a belief in one person's resurrection.

 

[the caracal kid]

yes, it is the particular person that was resurected that makes them christians.

If we look at all the christian sects, it is the belief that Jesus rose that is common. Granted, the secondary core beliefs are he was "the son of god" and "he died for your sins". Past that though, it becomes a game of theological interpretation (or which camp you belong to, paulist for example)

 

[LittleRunningGag]

The essence of Christianity, according to everything I've read about it, is that it's inclusive, accepting, and forgiving.

Unfortunately, there are far too few 'true' Christians out there. If people would just follow their religion, without trying to force their beliefs upon everyone else, the rest of us would be happy.

The old adage of people sucking applies. Far too many people rely on their religious leaders to guide them, instead of making educated decisions on their own. And many (not all, or most) of those leaders abuse their positions to propogate their own hate-filled version of their religion.