Protest in Iran

[MHz]

I think that many of you are capable of being respectful but in an atmosphere where people are trying to constantly one-up each other in rudeness you might need to be reminded that some of us don't want to play.

Rude is usually because of one or two reasons. The topic is either very personal to the poster or it is an attempt at deflecting the conversation. Just because it's there doesn't mean it takes priority over the main topic at hand at that very time. It's like a mud pit, you can jump in and join the fun or look ahead and follow that route..... no one choice is any better than the other in the end really.

It's me giving the poster a heads up and chance to engage in a debate free of distracting petty insults. I'm new here so maybe I'm being naive about the level of debate here? Please bear with me while I get to know you.

The name is new to me, not very common on any other forum I have visited either. I'm kind of a 'say what' sort of poster, not entirely trained in the politically correct arena no that a certain colored card is ..... well the same as it was back when cabin was a word everybody knew what it meant. We may both have to catch up to speed of Canada ever goes Egyptian and the 12 western farmers revolt into the 'Republic of Wjeatviulle' tm, serving Mexico an Quebec at the very same rate, why do just one when you can do both at the same time and at the same price. Sad in an funny sort of way really.

Anyway, Hi, hope I didn't jump the gun as I don't always fully research a subject before my yap starts yacking.

 

[earth_as_one]

At least Americans get to vote for their President. Anyone with a billion dollars has a fair chance of getting elected...

 

[gopher]

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''In comparison our Queen and Governor General will agree to pretty well anything Parliament passes as long as it's deemed constitutional.''


As a democratically elected government, the majority want to keep it that way and that's why it remains in place.

Ditto for Iranians. They have the present system because it is what they want. And that is their right.

 

[Machjo]

Perhaps the most important point is that members of some religious communities do not even have the right to vote. Though granted that's also the least of their concerns!

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''I don't care for the Iranian system and I'd like to see it reformed into a free and fair secular democracy.''

Why secular? Again, who is to say that it is not a fair system when it has majority support????

I have posed this question repeatedly but no one is answering my question.

Just for the sake of argument, let's suppose Iran's system was in fact totally democratic. Still, if the majority decides to oppress the minority, it may be democratic, but it's still tyrannical. In fact, I'd rather live under a benevolent dictatorship if that's my choice.

 

[gopher]

''Rude is usually because of one or two reasons. The topic is either very personal to the poster or it is an attempt at deflecting the conversation''

See my post #62 above in which I list the four names I have been called on this thread including one by the very same person who says she disdains name calling.

I am still waiting for a retraction.

 

[Colpy]

''Ah yes, when you run out of sane argument, change the subject.''

No, it's you who changed the subject. We were talking about the election process and the fact that the present system in Iran has overwhelming majority support. Then you present two photos which do not even begin to refute what I wrote. So why change the subject?

Where is your proof that the majority do not approve of the present system?

I see that there is significant opposition....see below.

I see that it is violently suppressed....see below

I know that we will never know the truth until elections in Iran are free and fair.........

 

[MHz]

I'm rolling my eyes so hard, I might hurt myself.

Gee, why are you resisting OPENING YOUR EYES so hard. Any strain you feel is you trying so desperately to keep them closed and having to to say "#%&$' to yourself. From what I've heard it only hurts for the 'twinkle of an eye'.

 

[gopher]

Perhaps the most important point is that members of some religious communities do not even have the right to vote. Though granted that's also the least of their concerns!

Just for the sake of argument, let's suppose Iran's system was in fact totally democratic. Still, if the majority decides to oppress the minority, it may be democratic, but it's still tyrannical. In fact, I'd rather live under a benevolent dictatorship if that's my choice.

Which communities in Iran do not have the right to vote?

Iran is a founding member of the UN and, as such, grants the right to vote across the board. It is legally obligated to do so.

 

[Machjo]

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''In comparison our Queen and Governor General will agree to pretty well anything Parliament passes as long as it's deemed constitutional.''


As a democratically elected government, the majority want to keep it that way and that's why it remains in place.

Ditto for Iranians. They have the present system because it is what they want. And that is their right.

Who is they? The Supreme Council?

I don;t deny Iran's system is indeed a semi-democratic system, but it's still an oppressive regime.

And also, I won't stoop so low as to exaggerate the oppression. I'm well aware that most Iranians probably live their lives relatively freely. But here's the thing. If you're a pious Muslim living in Iran, you're not likely to notice the oppression unless you happen to have some Baha'i friends or family members for example.

If you're an Iranian Jew, Christian, or Zoroastrian, you'll definitely be aware of being a second-class citizen, though still guaranteed considerable rights.

If you're a Baha'i though, you are well aware of the oppression, and live ready for death.

So again, I won't exaggerate and pretend the oppression is more than it is just for cheap rhetoric, but it does not change the fact that for at least certain religious communities (and if you consider the Baha'i faith is the second most practiced religion in Iran after Islam it's still not a small number), the oppression is very real, even if it does not apply to the others.

 

[gopher]

I see that there is significant opposition....see below.

I see that it is violently suppressed....see below

I know that we will never know the truth until elections in Iran are free and fair.........

Yes, there is opposition. As with all democracies.

Violently oppressed? No worse than other countries.

Elections are free and fair by the standards of their culture. Just as we do not allow immigrants to impose their standards on us, we do not have the right to impose our standards on them.

''Iranian Jew ... B'hai''

The shah's body guards and his defenders were B'hai is which why the government cracked down on this religion.

As for Iranian Jews, we have discussed previously how the Mizrahim [Oriental Jews] pledged loyalty to Iran even though they were invited by Israel to move there. They are NOT second class citizens in Iran but enjoy a good standard of living by middle east standards.

 

[Machjo]

Which communities in Iran do not have the right to vote?

Iran is a founding member of the UN and, as such, grants the right to vote across the board. It is legally obligated to do so.

Baha'is at least, though I'm not sure about other groups.

I doubt atheists are treated too well either, though Baha'is are classified as apostates from Islam, even if they've converted from another religion or are born Baha'i. Though granted with the Baha'i Faith being a relatively new religion, many Baha'is are bound to be first, second, or third generation, not to mention with many coming from Muslim or other religions backgrounds, that I'm sure their family and friends notice the dangers too.

Persecution of Bahá'ís in Iran

Just read this article. Imagine Baha'is not being allowed to be 'friends' with Muslims.

And I can certainly understand that. If they do make friends with Muslims, then they cold gain sympathy for their persecuation. Imagine suffering from arson attacks and warning letters sent to your home for making friends with Muslims.

I'm not attacking Islam or Muslims here. After all, this implies that Muslims are in fact willing to make friends with Baha'is, but that obviously does not conform to the Supreme Council's interpretation of Islam.

Then imagine gong to jail solely for your religious beliefs.

 

[gopher]

Zoroastrians are 'people of the book' and are protected by Shiia law. I am not aware of any second class status accorded to Christians.

 

[Machjo]

I especially like the last paragraph of the article. All it requests is that in the US that all religious communities try to make friends with one another. Nothing more.

Zoroastrians are 'people of the book' and are protected by Shiia law. I am not aware of any second class status accorded to Christians.

Christians too are 'People of the Book', Ahl-al-Kitab, and are therefore also afforded certain rights. In fact, the Qur'an teaches that to believe in Islam is also to believe in Jesus and the Gospel.

Interestingly enough though, Zoroaster is not mentioned in the Qur'an or Ahadith, but the Supreme Council took it upon itself to decide that Zoroaster was really Abraham, and so Zoroastrianism is just a corrupted form of the old pre-Jewish religion of Abraham. My how they can just choose on a whim to interpret the Qur'an as they wish.

So yes, if Christian, you'd still receive decent treatment in Iran by virtue of belonging to the "'Ahl-al-Kitab', though of course in some legal respects you're rights would not always be equal to those of a Muslim, albeit almost equal. But still not equal. And bewae lest you convert to Judaism. In Iran, you can only convert towards Islam by law (i.e. from Judaism to Christianity, or from either to Islam, but certainly not from Islam to either or from Christianity to Judaism). And to convert to the Baha'i Faith is really asking for a licking!

 

[gopher]

''Just read this article. Imagine Baha'is not being allowed to be 'friends' with Muslims.''

If true, that would be quite shocking. The article goes on to show a series of arson attacks conducted by ''unknown arsonists ''. Anonymous letters suggest that, again if true, this would be done by bigoted terrorists, not by the government. I am curious as to what the government is doing to stop these alleged crimes.

Not to change the subject on you but it will be recalled that Sikhs and Christians have suffered far worse attacks in India as we have discussed previously on these pages. Yet, India claims to be the world's biggest democracy. Therefore, reform is needed in more than just Islamic countries.

 

[Colpy]

Yes, there is opposition. As with all democracies.

Violently oppressed? No worse than other countries.

Elections are free and fair by the standards of their culture. Just as we do not allow immigrants to impose their standards on us, we do not have the right to impose our standards on them.

''Iranian Jew ... B'hai''

The shah's body guards and his defenders were B'hai is which why the government cracked down on this religion.

As for Iranian Jews, we have discussed previously how the Mizrahim [Oriental Jews] pledged loyalty to Iran even though they were invited by Israel to move there. They are NOT second class citizens in Iran but enjoy a good standard of living by middle east standards.

HOLY ****!

Iran admits it executed 66 people in January..........an Iranian Human Rights group puts the number at 121.

Iran has 75 million people.

The USA has over 300 million people, and executed 4 people in January........all after a fair trial for murder, and after all their appeals had been exhausted.

The vast majority of democracies DO NOT execute at all.

Are you really this obtuse????????

Most Iranian Jews have fled. Iran prevents Jews leaving, it will not allow more than one member of a Jewish family out of the country at any one time.

Why?

Because the Islamic Hadith says the following

'The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: `Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him'; but the tree Gharkad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.' (Sahih Muslim, Book 40, Number6985).

Gee, the Iranians don't want to miss out on all the fun now, do they???????

 

[earth_as_one]

So lets see if I have the Canadian system right.

In the last election, 38,548 people voted for Harper. Since he was elected leader of the Conservative party during a Leadership Convention by Conservative insiders, he is our Prime Minister, even though far more Canadians voted against than for the Conservative Party in the last election. As Prime Minister of a minority government, the opposition parties can cooperate and pass bills the minority government doesn't like, such as the Climate Change Accountability Act. But since Harper appoints loyal conservatives to the unelected Senate, the majority Conservatives in the unelected Senate were able to kill the bill by a Senate veto, even though it had majority support in the House of Commons who represent the will of Canadians since they were elected.
Climate Change Accountability Act (Bill C-311) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe its time Canadians starting protesting in the streets for a free and fair democracy.

 

[Machjo]

''Just read this article. Imagine Baha'is not being allowed to be 'friends' with Muslims.''

If true, that would be quite shocking. The article goes on to show a series of arson attacks conducted by ''unknown arsonists ''. Anonymous letters suggest that, again if true, this would be done by bigoted terrorists, not by the government. I am curious as to what the government is doing to stop these alleged crimes.

Not to change the subject on you but it will be recalled that Sikhs and Christians have suffered far worse attacks in India as we have discussed previously on these pages. Yet, India claims to be the world's biggest democracy. Therefore, reform is needed in more than just Islamic countries.

That may very well be true about India.

As for Baha'is, I remember one Baha'i friend years ago explain to me how he'd left Iran. He was an engineer there, and days after the Revolution, he'd gone to work to find out he'd been laid off. He went to the office to pick up his last paycheck, but they could't give it to him because he was a Baha'i. That same day he packed his family and whatever he could fit into his car and drove across the border to Pakistan and never turned back. He could see what was coming.

Now going back to your point about pointing finders, I fully agree. It would be totally arrogant of Canada to take unanimous action against Iran while we abuse human rights here, even if on a much lower scale.

Looking at it that way, I certainly would not approve of Canadian military action against Iran without the explicit consent of the UN. After all, when we've been criticized for human rights violations ourselves, some of which we continue, even if not nearly as bad as in Iran, then we forfeit the right to preach to others.

 

[gopher]

'' Iran prevents Jews leaving''

Baloney. Nobody is holding them hostage as we discussed previously. 25,000 Mizrahim stay there by choice because that is their homeland for the past 2,000+ years.

''As for Baha'is, I remember one Baha'i friend years ago explain to me how he'd left Iran.''

I was friends with a B'hai family here in St Paul for a while. They, too, had a sad story to tell about being persecuted in Iran. They swore that a brother of my friend's wife was mistaken for a supporter of the shah. Sadly he was executed for crimes against the state. Other than their word, I have no proof one way or the other as to whether any of that was or was not true.

It would be a far better world if the USA had not imposed its puppet shah in Iran or its puppet government in Iraq. Best to allow those people to settle their own affairs.

 

[Machjo]

I know Baha'is are prevented from leaving, though I don't know the situation concerning Jews. I had met a Jew a few days ago (we often run across each others' paths on our respective ways to work), and he'd mentioned that Jews in Iran are well treated as long as they don't promote Zionism. But again, I don't know the details on that front. I do know though that though not treated equally, they are guaranteed considerable rights owing to their being People of the Book. However, this link could be of interest to you too:http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huric...B7B624AABBC125713700572D09?opendocumentYou'll notice it's straight from the official website of the UNHCHR, and not some group with an agenda.Here's the entire article below: UNITED NATIONSPress ReleasexxxxxxxxxxSPECIAL RAPPORTEUR ON FREEDOM OF RELIGION OR BELIEFCONCERNED ABOUT TREATMENT OF FOLLOWERS OF BAHÁ'ÍFAITH IN IRANxxxxxxxxxx20 March 2006The Special Rapporteur of the Commission on Human Rights on freedom of religion or belief, Asma Jahangir, made the following statement today:“The Special Rapporteur is highly concerned by information she has received concerning the treatment of members of the Bahá'í community in Iran. A confidential letter sent on 29 October 2005 by the Chairman of the Command Headquarters of the Armed Forces in Iran to a number of governmental agencies has been brought to the attention of the Special Rapporteur. The letter, which is addressed to the Ministry of Information, the Revolutionary Guard and the Police Force, states that the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, had instructed the Command Headquarters to identify persons who adhere to the Bahá'í faith and monitor their activities. The letter goes on to request the recipients to, in a highly confidential manner, collect any and all information about members of the Bahá'í faith. The Special Rapporteur is apprehensive about the initiative to monitor the activities of individuals merely because they adhere to a religion that differs from the state religion. She considers that such monitoring constitutes an impermissible and unacceptable interference with the rights of members of religious minorities. She also expresses concern that the information gained as a result of such monitoring will be used as a basis for the increased persecution of, and discrimination against, members of the Bahá'í faith, in violation of international standards. The Bahá'í community has an estimated 300,000 to 350,000 adherents throughout Iran. However, members of the Bahá'í community are not recognized as a religious minority in the country and do not have the right to practice their religion. The Special Rapporteur on freedom of religion or belief has closely monitored the treatment of religious minorities in Iran, and has long been concerned by the systematic discrimination against members of the Bahá'í community. Since taking up the mandate in July 2004, the Special Rapporteur has intervened with the Government on a number of occasions regarding the treatment of the Bahá'í community.The Special Rapporteur is concerned that this latest development indicates that the situation with regard to religious minorities in Iran is, in fact, deteriorating. She takes this opportunity to emphasize that the fact that a religion is recognized as a state religion must not result in any discrimination against adherents to other religions. She calls on the Government of Iran to refrain from categorizing individuals according to their religion and to ensure that members of all religious minorities are free to hold and practise their religious beliefs, without discrimination or fear”.* *** *For use of the information media; not an official record

Now to be fair, that same organization has criticized Quebec for aspects of its Bill 101 and Ontario for its separate school system, but nothing like this.

 

[gopher]

^ the link did not work but I did come across another article which says essentially the same thing about government crackdowns on that religion - however, I have not found anything which says those people are not allowed to leave since I do know B'hais here from Iran