Palestinian Terrorist Again Using Children as Shields.

[elevennevele]

What I can never understand is why people don't allow themselves to do fair research of both sides, or all the sides. In the very least in this instance, why defend any side absolutely in this particular argument? Things are what they are and there is a grim injustice that should not be ignored of the players. Grim injustices which lay themselves out in varying degrees via actions committed and the numbers that add up against the crimes.

I see people picking sides for who they wish to identify with rather than an honest appeal towards a fair view of justice. And that view is usually limited to the action committed rather than the depth of the motivations and history behind it.

I also don't feel that tanks, missiles, or planes to kill with has anything to do with honour or sophistication. It doesn’t remove barbarism simply by owning a better design at committing violence. Yet I get the sense that people have a better perception of the side who can fight by these means (our western means) when the other side resorts to methods that in comparison are regarded as crude.

Killing in the end is killing whether ones weapon is complicated or expensive. Also one’s means has nothing to do with tactics or justifications for the killing.

 

[earth_as_one]

Do I believe this Article, yes I do. Palestinian Extremist seem devoid of even a modicum of human decency. Using their children as human bombs, using civies as human shields. I'm shaking my head at the level of cruelty they will sink to to get a shot across the bow at Israel. Their hatred is beyond my comprehension.

If the IDF interpretation of events is true, that's disturbing. But I'm sure we don't know the whole story here. Its also possible that some of these stories and the video clip from the first post in this string are staged propaganda like this:

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005424

How do we know who those people are in the clip? Do we know context? Is it reasonable to assume that story is accurate just because the IDF says that's what happened? Is the IDF an objective reliable source of information in this conflict? Is the IDF motivated to make their adversaries look bad?

I'm not saying what you posted isn't true, just that I am still skeptical until this claim is backed up by an objective third party, like Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch. Do you have other links?

Another possibility is that in some cases these people were trying to make sure that the IDF didn't come in guns ablazing killing everyone including innocent bystanders. In the first case, the Palestinian went down in a hail of bullets after passing the kid off. Why did he pass the kid off if he was taking the kid hostage? If this person hadn't made the IDF aware children were involved, what are the chances the IDF would have just lobbed a few tank shells into the house killing everyone inside including the boy? Is it possible that what the IDF tells us was a hostage taking was really a rescue?

So no I am not willing to take this story at face value yet, but my mind is open to the possibility that the IDF resistance has used human shields. S, you will have to find a link to a more objective source to convince me.

Now lets look at the case of IDF using innocent civlians as human shields.

IDF use of Palestinian civilians as human shields has been proven in an Israeli court of law.

IDF use of Palestinian civilians is very well documented by objective third parties.

There isn't nearly as much room for skepticism here, yet Sassy has not written a single word of condemnation. Why? How come S's outrage is so selective?

There is defending "your side" and then there is blindness. At least Colpy who is also a supporter of Israel can recognize documented proof when he sees it.

Yeah, Earth as One, I'm afraid I have to agree with you on this one.

As you know, I am an unrepentant supporter of Israel.

BUT they have used human shields, I know that, and it is completely disgraceful, without honour, and they should damned well know better.

Colpy

Colpy moves up a notch or two in my estimation for making that post. It shows he can accept proven facts despite the facts portraying "his" side in a bad way. It doesn't take away from his support of Israel and increases his credibility. S, you could learn from C.

 

[Sassylassie]

Earth-as-one post: S, are you going to admit that the IDF uses Palestinian civilians as human shields or would you like photos

IDF soldiers use a Palestinian civilian as a "human shield."
http://www.btselem.org/Download/2002...eld%20proof%22
Photo credit: Gihad Nga

Court bans ‘human shield’ procedure Photo: AP

Now lets address the first Photo: Two Soldiers in the position that "Police" use to take down a suspect with out firing their weapon. Suspect is in the process of raising his hands to place behind his head. The picture does not show Soldiers hiding behind a civilian, it looks like a simple arrest of a suspect. The Soldiers are out in the open, the Suspect could drop to the ground and the soldiers could be shot by radicals. Whos hiding behind whom?

Second picture: Again it looks as if Soldiers arrested a suspect, i.e. handcuffs. And the soldiers aren't hiding behind him it looks like they are shielding him to protect him.

Regarding Israel using Civies for human shields surely you can come up with something more than Photos that say nothing. Propaganda again. Does Israel use Civies for human shields, once upon a time maybe now no I don't think they do. Remember it was Irael that dropped leaflets to warn people in Lebanon they would be bombing so they could go to a safe zone. Yet Hezbollah, hid behind civies dressed as civies armed to the teeth. It was also Hezbollah that faked mass destruction and death and then tried to pass it off as fact visa vie the news. CCN reported this nes pas.

As for moving up a notch on "Your" what ever scale, please you mean nothing to me and neither does your opinion.

 

[earth_as_one]

click on the link provided, read the report by btselem, an Israeli human rights organization. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have both reported that the IDF have continued to use Palestininan civilians after the Israel courts found the IDF guilty of using Palestinian civilians as human shields.

Also if you go back and read that HRW webpage I quoted, they said that reports of Palestinian militant groups using civilians as human shields were false.

Human Rights Watch has so far found no evidence that Palestinian gunmen forced Palestinian civilians to serve as human shields during the attack.

Israel faces human shield claim

Activists claim Mohammed was tied to the jeep by police.

Israeli human rights activists have accused border police of using a 13-year-old Palestinian as a human shield.
Rabbis for Human Rights say that Mohammed Badwan was tied by police to a jeep during a recent demonstration in the West Bank village of Bidou.
The police apparently hoped this would stop Palestinians from throwing stones during a protest against Israel's West Bank barrier.
Israel's Supreme Court banned the use of human shields in 2002. Rabbis for Human Rights also say that the boy was beaten by Israeli police before being arrested...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3650791.stm

Last Updated: Tuesday, 25 July 2006, 11:39 GMT 12:39 UK

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Israelis accused of 'human shields' tactic

By Lucy Williamson
BBC News, Gaza

The Israeli army has been accused of using Palestinian civilians as human shields in an operation in northern Gaza.
According to the Israeli human rights group, B'tselem, six civilians including two minors were subjected to the illegal tactic during an incursion into the town of Beit Hanoun last week.

Hazem Ali says he was subjected to a terrifying 12-hour ordeal

There are piles of rubble leading up to the hole in Hazem Ali's house.
It's a week since Israel came into Beit Hanoun, but the gash in the side of his house is still raw, the soft inside of family life still visible through the lumps of concrete hanging from the wall. A broken bed; a few girders dripping onto it; an elegant wardrobe still standing against the back wall.
It was soon after dawn when the Israeli army bulldozed their way in. Hazem was still sleeping, taking a break from his job as an engineer with the local Palestinian news agency.
'Blindfolded'
It was his mother who met them in the hallway, Israeli soldiers in a Palestinian home. Behind her, Hazem and his two brothers emerged, one by one.
The three brothers were blindfolded, says Hazem, and their hands tied behind their backs. He shows me the wounds on his wrists from the plastic handcuffs - still sore and infected, but beginning to heal over.
He shows me where the soldiers positioned them: outside the entrance to his flat on the third floor, in the stairwell, facing down the steps.

The wounds are healing

"I think they put us here because they were expecting suiciders to come into the flat because none of the soldiers were on the stairs - they were all inside the flat. They put us here so we'll be shot first."
Inside the flat, the soldiers punched holes in the walls of his living room, and bedroom. Through them, snipers exchanged fire with Palestinian militants. Hazem and his brothers heard it all, but could see nothing.
Hazem says he had little idea at the time exactly how long he was kept there. All he remembers was listening to the heavy gunfire around him, and counting the calls to prayer as they echoed over the area: one at lunchtime, one at tea-time, and one in the evening as the sun set. Twelve hours in all. He says he expected to die any second. He still can't understand why, as civilians, they couldn't be kept in a room somewhere inside the house, where they would have been safer. But they put us in the middle of the clashes, he says. "There was no need for that." Court outlawed tactic Allegations over Israel's use of human shields have surfaced before. The last time they made headlines was during Operation Defensive Shield in the West Bank town of Jenin, four years ago...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5212870.stm

How many more sources would you like? I can find many more.

You still haven't linked to any source besides the IDF tat Palestinian militant groups use human shields.


This myth that Palestinian militant groups use human shields is busted, while its a proven fact the IDF has used civilians as human shields and continued to do so after the Israel courts banned the practice.

Somehow I don't think it matters how many reputable sources I link to, people like S will continue believing what they believe regardless of proof or facts.

 

[gopher]

Yes, all too often the truth hurts the paid Israeli lobby.

 

[Sassylassie]

Really, can't you Jew haters come up with real info and pictures? The kid is sitting on a Jeep, no rope at all. Second a scratch on a faceless arm, hello that looks like me after picking Black Berries. Bloody hell you fellas make my skin crawl with your hatred of the US and the Jews. Burning any crosses tonight?

 

[gopher]

I'm still waiting for proof from Human Rights Watch that its reports which determined that Hezbollah did not use civilians as human shields has been refuted.

 

[CDNBear]

As I said another thread, we need to rethink the Rules of ingagement, if we want to win the war on terror, we need to use the same rules as the bad guys. Just because we wear white hats, does not mean we need to be all nice. Take it to the hole, ram it down their collective throats by anymeans neccessary. If that means playing war their way, so be it.

 

[gopher]

Bear,


That wasn't my question. What I'm asking for is PROOF that this allegation (which was previously made in 1996 and refuted then) has any basis in reality.

If you do not have any proof from the international agency that is charged with investigating it, please say so.

 

[CDNBear]

Bear,


That wasn't my question. What I'm asking for is PROOF that this allegation (which was previously made in 1996 and refuted then) has any basis in reality.

If you do not have any proof from the international agency that is charged with investigating it, please say so.

Actually, I was commenting on the thread in general. Just dropping my two cents. You and I may have differing points of view on a few things, but remember you have quoted me, when my points suited you. Lets stay civil.

 

[gopher]

Very well. I shall assume that you are making such an admission.

Thank you for your admission and for keeping it civil.

 

[CDNBear]

Very well. I shall assume that you are making such an admission.

Thank you for your admission and for keeping it civil.

Proof is not always clear cut, and seldomly difinative. The fog of war leaves gaps in memories, evidence and such. If you looked at this matter through the eyes of a civil attorney, and put the case in front of a civil judge, you would likely end up with a finding in favour of the defence here. By the defence I would be reffering to the people claiming that the enemy has been using human shields.

The burden of proof in the matter must only meet the perponderance of doubt. The enemy has given us many things to conclude by its actions, and in some cases so have we. But the case is not that simple. Terrorist organisations are illegal in the global eye. So they are cosidered to always be wrong. There actions do not lend condusively to their credit.

 

[gopher]

The law is the law. And it is the Human Rights Watch that is charged with overseeing any claims of unlawful actions in war.

The IAEA is charged with nuclear investigatory oversight. It concluded that Iraq was in compliance with the UN mandate to disable all WMD. Yet, Bush unilaterally decided that he had the authority to disregard its findings. War resulted and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been killed as a consequence. This is what happens when the rule of law is not adhere to and why Ben Ferencz who authored the Nuremburg Doctrine has called for Bush to be brought before a new Nuremburg Tribunal.

The claim that Hezbollah used civilians as human shields was refuted in 1996 when the IDF made up that charge. So far, no evidence has been presented to prove in any way that this made up claim has any basis in fact. As someone with a law degree, I respect the law and the need to comply with evidenciary requirements. Merely making unsubstantiated claims, such as those made by the IDF or by Bush or by Hitler before them, and repeating them over and over again do not constitute proof.

The IDF has been proven to be liars as has the Mossad. Their credibility is far lower than is Hezbollah's.

 

[CDNBear]

The IDF has been proven to be liars as has the Mossad. Their credibility is far lower than is Hezbollah's.

Ouch!!

So have many Army's and special services. But in any sight, the IDF and Mossad come out looking better then the Hezbollah.

At least Isreal accepts the existance of other nations, unlike its enemies.

Besides, General Markava is my hereo.

BTW, those pics do not prove anything.

 

[gopher]

``At least Isreal accepts the existance of other nations, unlike its enemies``


Now read By Way of Deception for the real truth.

 

[CDNBear]

``At least Isreal accepts the existance of other nations, unlike its enemies``


Now read By Way of Deception for the real truth.

I rarely read tattle tale or tell all books, their authors usually have an axe to grind, I'm more of a Tom Clancy kinda guy.

I can relate to the Israelis quite easily, if you spend a good portion of your life as shyte in the eyes of others, you will eventually believe or fight to prove them wrong. In the Israelis case they chose to fight. The other side set the rules and the Israelis, were more then willing to oblige. So they haven't always followed the rules of other Nations, their detractors, never have.

 

[Sassylassie]

It's rather hard for Israel to follow the rules of "War" when the enemy uses their Children as bombs, their women as shields. Their list of crimes is endless, Isreal has the right to protect its self from these Mad men.

 

[CDNBear]

As usual Sass, a clear voice and an even clearer head.

 

[earth_as_one]

If I understand correctly, posting links to Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch that the IDF has in the past been proven to make false accusations of human sheilds was not enough to make some people question a recent fuzzy youtube video.

Links to an Israeli court decision, the UN, the BBC, Amnesty International, Human rights watch was not enough to connvince some people that Israel uses innocent civilians including children as human shields.

Somebody should give their head a shake.

 

[fuzzylogix]

There is no doubt that Israel has used Palestinian civilians as human shields.



There is also no doubt that Israel has used Palestinian civilians as human targets.