Help enstate Tims Law (greyhound bus murder)

[shrimpsey]

Why should he have the chance?

 

[talloola]

You can really only make the case that he knew he would do something unacceptable like this if he'd done it before. If he's not been violent in the past despite being off his meds then he'd have no way of knowing that his hallucinations would cause him to kill someone. The vast majority of schizophrenic people are not violent. It's a tiny minority who wind up doing things like this and unfortunately it causes a lot of prejudice against those with mental illnesses in general.

Many schizohrenics are quite intelligent, so when in that intelligent state of
mind, they should know that if they want to exist in a state of normality they
should never go off of the medication, and 'often' they do go off of the medication, with statements that they have nothing wrong with them anymore, and that is a stupid attitude. In an intelligent state of mind they also know that
schizophrenics can behave in a way that is harmful to others, even if they
haven't done so before.
This fellow who did the dirty deed surely realized that he was heading down a
road of doom, and did nothing about it, before the fact, I can't believe that he
committed that murder with absolutely no indication that he could be capable
of harm to others.

 

[tracy]

Why should he have the chance?

Because he's different from a sane person who kills. That's why the rules are different: he's different. It makes no sense to have the same rules apply to people who are not the same. That's why a 6 year old who kills isn't treated like a 20 year old who does it. It's why abused women who kill their abusers are not treated like armed robbers who kill a cashier. Different circumstances require different approaches.

 

[lone wolf]

In that "It's not me it's the rest of the world" state of mind, nobody can reach them ... not even their own logical side. The farther in they go, the less likely they are to recognize. I've seen it from a very personal level, where it came right down to a choice of sleeping with one eye open, or saying goodbye to an otherwise very lovable lady.

 

[tracy]

Many schizohrenics are quite intelligent, so when in that intelligent state of
mind, they should know that if they want to exist in a state of normality they
should never go off of the medication, and 'often' they do go off of the medication, with statements that they have nothing wrong with them anymore, and that is a stupid attitude. In an intelligent state of mind they also know that
schizophrenics can behave in a way that is harmful to others, even if they
haven't done so before.
This fellow who did the dirty deed surely realized that he was heading down a
road of doom, and did nothing about it, before the fact, I can't believe that he
committed that murder with absolutely no indication that he could be capable
of harm to others.

Living in a state of normalcy is not required to be non-violent. We let non-violent adults choose to live without psych meds all the time even though they would be better off mentally on their meds. An intelligent person educated about schizophrenia would also know that schizophrenics are rarely violent. You or I COULD behave violently tomorrow. We probably won't, just like most people with schizophrenia probably won't. You'll meet way more sane murderers and abusers than you will mentally ill ones.

I realize it's easier to believe he knew he could be harmful to others and he had the ability to just change his behavior, because that's a much more comforting view. I just don't think it's true. You're looking at his behavior with the benefit of a logical mind. He didn't have that. You don't know that he was even rational when he chose to go off meds. All you know is he stopped taking his meds, not whether or not they actually worked in the first place. Was he on the right drugs? Was he on them long enough for them to work? Did he even take them (there are some great med fakers out there)? Or was he humouring the docs and nurses when all along in his treatment he was still hearing the voices despite taking his meds?

 

[talloola]

Living in a state of normalcy is not required to be non-violent. We let non-violent adults choose to live without psych meds all the time even though they would be better off mentally on their meds. An intelligent person educated about schizophrenia would also know that schizophrenics are rarely violent. You or I COULD behave violently tomorrow. We probably won't, just like most people with schizophrenia probably won't. You'll meet way more sane murderers and abusers than you will mentally ill ones.

I realize it's easier to believe he knew he could be harmful to others and he had the ability to just change his behavior, because that's a much more comforting view. I just don't think it's true. You're looking at his behavior with the benefit of a logical mind. He didn't have that. You don't know that he was even rational when he chose to go off meds. All you know is he stopped taking his meds, not whether or not they actually worked in the first place. Was he on the right drugs? Was he on them long enough for them to work? Did he even take them (there are some great med fakers out there)? Or was he humouring the docs and nurses when all along in his treatment he was still hearing the voices despite taking his meds?

I can only relate my thoughts from my experience with a schizohrenic, and his
behavior was exactly that which I explained. He would have periods where he
was quite normal, very intelligent, and would deny there was anything wrong
with him, that would require a professional to help him, very annoying, and
he continued that behavior for several years, gave his family a horrible life,
was physically violent to his children and wife, and just took on an arrogant
position that put all of the family in a position of being unable to help him at all.
Thankfully he is now far away from all of the family, and has been for a couple
of years, his childen had to have therapy and their mom as well, and it took
them a year to get back to normal, as over a long period of time they became
very passive and worried all the time, and 'stuck' in a life that was miserable,
until it turned more violant, the law was brought in, and finally the end of
chapter of their lives, and on to the struggle back to normalcy.

 

[Kreskin]

If I understand it correctly even the Crown believed he wasn't criminally responsible due to his mental illness. The prosecutors had evidence to prove he believed his own life was endangered and that his actions were directed by God, or something to that effect. That's pretty much a classic insanity defense which, like Colpy said, has been part of our legal system dating back to old England. It would've been the burden of the defense to prove it and the evidence was so overwhelming apparently that the Crown sided with the decision. Based on the entire legal system supporting the decision it was probably the right one. That's no consolation to the family of the victim though.

 

[talloola]

Yeah, hearing the voices is definitely what drives the schizofrenic and drive them
utterly insane by the interference into their desire to think in a normal way.

And while he was committing the murder it is apparant and obvious that he was
insane and under the influence of his illness, and that is what gets him off the hook, and free of jail, and when he shows normal tendencies over a consistent
period of time again, he will walk 'free' on the streets.
My only gripe is that, when he decides he doesn't need his meds again, the whole
problem will arise again, and when he committs another atrosity he will again be
protected by 'his illness', under the law.

In my opinion, anyone who kills another, is at that time 'not normal', how could
he/she be, when ending someone elses life, but that particular 'not normal' has
no name, (thankfully), and that person must be punished under the law of the
land, (thankfully).

 

[Cannuck]

...and that is what gets him off the hook, and free of jail, and when he shows normal tendencies over a consistent
period of time again, he will walk 'free' on the streets...

I have a problem with this idea that I've heard over and over again that Li is "off the hook". He is anything but. People think he needs to be punished somehow... well he is...it's call schizophrenia.

 

[Kreskin]

Unlike other defenses, where the prosecution must prove a case, an insanity defense must be proven by the defense. A judge won't step in and proclaim it is something he has observed; it needs to be brought forward as a plea and proven to him/her. Basically everyone is considered to be of sound enough mind to know that killing innocent people is wrong. Everyone is assumed to know unless they prove they didn't have the capacity. Apparently it's not an easy defense to make. To proclaim being mentally sick is generally insufficient on its own.

He may never leave a mental hospital. If he does I suspect he will need to prove that his level of mental fitness both on and off meds is sufficient to always know right from wrong. He has certainly already proven that the risk of making an error is too high.

 

[tracy]

I can only relate my thoughts from my experience with a schizohrenic, and his
behavior was exactly that which I explained. He would have periods where he
was quite normal, very intelligent, and would deny there was anything wrong
with him, that would require a professional to help him, very annoying, and
he continued that behavior for several years, gave his family a horrible life,
was physically violent to his children and wife, and just took on an arrogant
position that put all of the family in a position of being unable to help him at all.
Thankfully he is now far away from all of the family, and has been for a couple
of years, his childen had to have therapy and their mom as well, and it took
them a year to get back to normal, as over a long period of time they became
very passive and worried all the time, and 'stuck' in a life that was miserable,
until it turned more violant, the law was brought in, and finally the end of
chapter of their lives, and on to the struggle back to normalcy.

I understand how a negative experience with someone like that will impact your view on the illness Li has. But, do you understand why I feel one experience isn't enough to make a blanket judgement about this one man?

The stigma associated with mental illness makes it so tempting for people to believe they are "cured" and don't need treatment anymore. That is as much our failure as a society as it is their failure as individuals. You can tell people you have diabetes without them recoiling in horror. Schizophrenia? Not so much...

 

[tracy]

Yeah, hearing the voices is definitely what drives the schizofrenic and drive them
utterly insane by the interference into their desire to think in a normal way.

And while he was committing the murder it is apparant and obvious that he was
insane and under the influence of his illness, and that is what gets him off the hook, and free of jail, and when he shows normal tendencies over a consistent
period of time again, he will walk 'free' on the streets.
My only gripe is that, when he decides he doesn't need his meds again, the whole
problem will arise again, and when he committs another atrosity he will again be
protected by 'his illness', under the law.

In my opinion, anyone who kills another, is at that time 'not normal', how could
he/she be, when ending someone elses life, but that particular 'not normal' has
no name, (thankfully), and that person must be punished under the law of the
land, (thankfully).

It isn't just hearing the voices that makes them crazy, it's BELIEVING those voices are real. That's a whole lot more than just "not normal".

Li isn't going to be walking free on the streets. He's going to be monitored pretty closely if he's ever well enough to be released.

 

[talloola]

It isn't just hearing the voices that makes them crazy, it's BELIEVING those voices are real. That's a whole lot more than just "not normal".

Li isn't going to be walking free on the streets. He's going to be monitored pretty closely if he's ever well enough to be released.

I understand about the voices.
I wonder about his release, hope he's there for the rest of his life.

 

[Dixie Cup]

Unfortunately, treatment for schizohrenics varies from person to person and getting the correct "med combination" is often trial and error. In the meantime, the side affects from the various medications can be brutal, thus many patients choose to not take them. On the other hand, there are those whose meds work extremely well and decide that they're "cured" only to find themselves back where they were initially. The former tend to end up being institutionalized for long periods of time (that is if they haven't committed suicde before then). The latter need extensive therapy to realize that they cannot ever go off their meds because the pills are what makes them function relatively normally. In most cases, schizohrenics tend to hurt themselves more so than other people. Li represents a MINOR abberation, not for what he's done, but what we can expect from schizohrenics in general, and, I believe, will never be let out. Until the general population removes the sigma of mental illness as an illness, people like Li will continue to fall through the cracks. This petition doesn't do anything to help the situation but is a crass way of stigmatizing an already stimatized disease.

JMO

 

[talloola]

In most cases, schizohrenics tend to hurt themselves more so than other people. Li represents a MINOR abberation, not for what he's done, but what we can expect from schizohrenics in general, and, I believe, will never be let out. Until the general population removes the sigma of mental illness as an illness, people like Li will continue to fall through the cracks. This petition doesn't do anything to help the situation but is a crass way of stigmatizing an already stimatized disease.
And, as usual, and, realizing that it is a sad and pitiful illness, the victim is
never talked about, just forgotton about, he will not be alive again even if you give
him medication from mars, and his family will never be the same, but we are
forced to pity and feel sorry for the murderer, even though he might have been
able to do something about himself through medical help earlier, we will never
really know that, but it is a possibility.

 

[JLM]

In most cases, schizohrenics tend to hurt themselves more so than other people. Li represents a MINOR abberation, not for what he's done, but what we can expect from schizohrenics in general, and, I believe, will never be let out. Until the general population removes the sigma of mental illness as an illness, people like Li will continue to fall through the cracks. This petition doesn't do anything to help the situation but is a crass way of stigmatizing an already stimatized disease.
And, as usual, and, realizing that it is a sad and pitiful illness, the victim is
never talked about, just forgotton about, he will not be alive again even if you give
him medication from mars, and his family will never be the same, but we are
forced to pity and feel sorry for the murderer, even though he might have been
able to do something about himself through medical help earlier, we will never
really know that, but it is a possibility.

Yep, it's just such a tragedy on both sides, it's like there's two main victims here and probably dozens of more minor victims. "Tim's Law" won't really help, and one of the dangers of it is it could soon be applied to cases of a much more minor nature, where salvageable people could be rehabbed without warehousing them forever.