Help enstate Tims Law (greyhound bus murder)

[Cannuck]

So what is so unreasonable about wanting a system where if someone commits a murder, and suffers from mental illness to be sentance to be in a mental facility for at least the minimum someone would spend in jail for the same crime, before he is given an oppourtunity to be released?

Because if they are cured of their mental illness then holding them serves no purpose other than vengeance. It, in effect, penalizes the person for becoming ill and as I've already said, enlightened societies don't do that.

And you never answered my previous question, if there is NO WAY he will be getting out soon, then why the oppourtunity?

There is a difference between what is possible and what is reasonably expected. While it is possible that he could be released tomorrow (and should be given that opportunity if he is cured) it is highly unlikely that he will be free any time soon.

 

[shrimpsey]

Because if they are cured of their mental illness then holding them serves no purpose other than vengeance. It, in effect, penalizes the person for becoming ill and as I've already said, enlightened societies don't do that.



There is a difference between what is possible and what is reasonably expected. While it is possible that he could be released tomorrow (and should be given that opportunity if he is cured) it is highly unlikely that he will be free any time soon.

Once again, mental illness CANNOT be CURED, only managed, therefore it IS reasonable to keep him for a period of time before he is eligable for release, for many reason. He was fine for 7 years before he snapped. What if he gets out in 4, and its 6 years from now he snaps again, I mean come on. Taking a life, and getting off criminally for mental illness, you should have to be in the facility a while , I don't think its unreasonable at all. I think him being out is more unreasonable.

Another thought, how do we know if he really has a history or not. He only joined our country in 2001. How do we know what went on in his own country before he was here. He could have killed before, you don't know.......and neither do we. That should be looked into.

 

[L Gilbert]

IMO, insane or not, if they can be demonstrated as knowing that killing someone else is against the law and they do it anyway, they should be dealt with criminally. Particularly if malice in involved.

 

[Zzarchov]

Once again, mental illness CANNOT be CURED, only managed

Bull.

Some illness can be cured, some can not (currently). Physical or Mental.

 

[Cannuck]

Once again, mental illness CANNOT be CURED,

Once again, you are wrong. Schizophrenia can not be cured (currently) but schizophrenia is not all mental illness.

He was fine for 7 years before he snapped.

You might feel his lack of homicidal activity is paramount to "fine" but others may disagree.

What if he gets out in 4, and its 6 years from now he snaps again, I mean come on.

Then somebody has erred by letting him out.

Taking a life, and getting off criminally for mental illness, you should have to be in the facility a while , I don't think its unreasonable at all. I think him being out is more unreasonable.

I understand what you think. You just haven't given any credible reason to think it. I understand you are afraid of what "may" happen. I just don't see the point in making Li suffer simply because of your fears. Perhaps if you could back up your feelings with something logical, it may help.

Another thought, how do we know if he really has a history or not. He only joined our country in 2001. How do we know what went on in his own country before he was here. He could have killed before, you don't know.......and neither do we. That should be looked into.

I could be a serial killer. You just don't know.

 

[lone wolf]

So what is so unreasonable about wanting a system where if someone commits a murder, and suffers from mental illness to be sentance to be in a mental facility for at least the minimum someone would spend in jail for the same crime, before he is given an oppourtunity to be released?

And you never answered my previous question, if there is NO WAY he will be getting out soon, then why the oppourtunity?

Again, I have to ask in what capacity do you work with "mentally ill" patients....

 

[shrimpsey]

My current and past employment is irrelivant to the discussion, as well as my personal information which I am not willing to post on a forum.

Are you (lone wolk and canuk) saying you think its right that he has the opourtunity to be released free and clear in 90 days, and annually thereafter?? What if it does happen. Will you feel good if that man is let free in a year? If they deem him rehabilitated, he will be, however remote you think the chances are. I know of another man who served less then 3 years in a mental facility after stabbing a man to death 27 times. He is out, and working. We will just have to "trust" that he willl keep on his meds, not build up a tolerance, or need adjustments.

And the illness in question here is schizophrenia, which is a chronic condition and CANNOT be cured, only maintained, so that blows your whole if Li is "cured" argument out the window.

Don't you think after commiting the act that he did, we should have the right to know if he had any previous violence when he was living in China, before we sentance him?

If the voices only started talking to him on the bus, then why did he carry his weapon on the bus in the first place.

This case and whole situation needs to be looked at more closely.

 

[lone wolf]

You can put whatever thoughts in my head make you comfortable. I'm hearing words from someone who claims to be in a field where she "works with mentally ill patients" yet it sounds like she really isn't all that supportive of the clientele. Correct me if I'm mistaken here - and I am NOT making any excuses for Li - but shouldn't you be a little more understanding of his condition?

 

[talloola]

You can choose whether or not to take drugs. You can not
choose whether or not to be Schizophrenic.

Have you ever heard of Serge LeClec?

But, a schitzophrenic can choose to get the help he needs, when he is in
a normal frame of mind, and many times chooses 'not to', so then do we
feel he is not able to control his actions, I think not.

 

[talloola]

Once again, mental illness CANNOT be CURED, only managed, therefore it IS reasonable to keep him for a period of time before he is eligable for release, for many reason. He was fine for 7 years before he snapped.

Yeah, and he probably stopped taking his medication, or didn't report for
pre appointed check ups, those are decisions he made in a 'normal' frame
of mind, before he snapped, that is criminal in my opinion, as he knew that
if he didn't take his meds he would do something unacceptable, and he did.

 

[Cannuck]

My current and past employment is irrelivant to the discussion

No. It was irrelevant to the discussion until you brought it up as a defense for your position.

I have worked with numerous mentally ill patients. One for instance - one of my clients, in an institution, on his meds, was totally fine, and to the average person, you would think was fine, grabbed a knife and threatened to kill me. He had to be sent back to the hospital and have his meds re-adjusted before he returned to our INSTITUTION. If Li is out, who is going to be their 24/7 to make sure his meds don't need to be re-adjusted, or just wait until he snaps again.

Now it is relevant.

 

[tracy]

IMO, insane or not, if they can be demonstrated as knowing that killing someone else is against the law and they do it anyway, they should be dealt with criminally. Particularly if malice in involved.

I thought that was the case now. This man apparently thought God told him to kill that young man or he would be killed. In his mind, it was self defense which isn't against the law or done with malice.

 

[tracy]

Yeah, and he probably stopped taking his medication, or didn't report for
pre appointed check ups, those are decisions he made in a 'normal' frame
of mind, before he snapped, that is criminal in my opinion, as he knew that
if he didn't take his meds he would do something unacceptable, and he did.

You can really only make the case that he knew he would do something unacceptable like this if he'd done it before. If he's not been violent in the past despite being off his meds then he'd have no way of knowing that his hallucinations would cause him to kill someone. The vast majority of schizophrenic people are not violent. It's a tiny minority who wind up doing things like this and unfortunately it causes a lot of prejudice against those with mental illnesses in general.

 

[JLM]

So what is so unreasonable about wanting a system where if someone commits a murder, and suffers from mental illness to be sentance to be in a mental facility for at least the minimum someone would spend in jail for the same crime, before he is given an oppourtunity to be released?

And you never answered my previous question, if there is NO WAY he will be getting out soon, then why the oppourtunity?

CAn someone help me out here. Can schitzophrenia be brought on by street drugs? I know that Manic- Depressive or bi-polar can be. If a condition can be triggered by street drugs, should the patient have to bear some responsibility? I think each case may be different and hard to dismiss one way or the other. Should the legal profession be making determinations like this or should it be left up to the medical profession?

 

[shrimpsey]

Why is it relevant Cannuk?? Because I referenced one personal experience I had with a person who was diagnosed, and on medication. My point in that story was that even if people are medicated, often times after being on the meds, they don't work as well, and need adjustments.

Secondly, how am I unsupportive of people with a mental illness?? Just because I personally believe if someone with mental illness (like LI) commits a murder that they should be kept institutionalised for at least the minimum a sane person would be kept the same crime, before they are released. How is that unsupportive. I say YES, treat his illness, send him to the facility instead of jail, but keep him in the facility and don't give him the oppourtunity to get out until at least the equivalent amount of time you would serve for a minimum sentance for the same crime.

I think that is more then reasonable. I still haven't heard your argument on why you feel Li should have a oppourtunity to be free in 90 days.

 

[lone wolf]

How are you unsupportive? Not once have I read the politically correct term "mentally challenged". Not only doe the word "illness" excuse Li's actions, it reinforces a negative stereotype mental health proffessionals and support organizations have spent years trying to overcome.

For the record, I don't believe Li ... even if found to be not responsible ... should be released at ANY time before he has served at least ten years in rehabilitation ... and only if he can be seen as reasonably safe among the public.

 

[shrimpsey]

In all of my points in this topic, I am not talking about the mentally challenged individual. I am talking about the mentally ill person who starts randomly murdering people. The people at the most severe level, like Li. It doesn't affect any other persons suffering from disorders until they MURDER someone else. (murder, not manslaugher)

Murder is murder, it should not be taken so lightly. Don't make it what its not about. What is not fair about serving the equivalent of the minimum time in a facility that you would have had to serve in jail if you were deemed sane?

 

[lone wolf]

A life sentence is 25 years with eligibility for parole at 10

 

[shrimpsey]

So then shouldn't we at least be guarunteed that Li be institutionalised for at least 10 years before re-assesment for release?

 

[lone wolf]

So then shouldn't we at least be guarunteed that Li be institutionalised for at least 10 years before re-assesment for release?

Did you read post 176? I doubt if he'll be released in 90 days....