‘Do you have running water? I don’t and I live in Canada’

[taxslave]

The aboriginal reserve I'm talking about is Kingcome in BC. They said on the CBC news last year during a flood that there was no access road there. Every now and then you hear there are reserves that the only way in is by boat or plane and they are not islands.

Regina is a big city if you come from a settlement of a few hundred or few thousand people. Slow, wide open spaces, and no traffic jams to speak of. Unlike the daily Trans Canada parking lot during rush hour in Metro Vancouver.

Kingcome res doesn't even have a proper dock. It is across the river from the logging camp . The plane also ties up at the camp and one must boat across to the res. The landing barge that brings in fuel can only get that far up the river at high tide. Below it is a mud flat.

Have to agree with you there. We KNOW that anyone that would willingly live in a concrete jungle where you have to lock your house and take the keys out of your car when shopping is a few bricks short of a full load.

Giving them things is hardly what is required in toto. It's obvious to anyone with reason that they require the education to keep water infrastructure going, and to make changes as required.

You know the old saying about teaching a man to fish? We teach people in poor areas of the world how to grow fish and use their water efficiently, I don't see why we couldn't make similar investments here.

Mostly because there is this huge industry called Dep. of Indian Affairs that gets about 9 billion of our tax dollars every year to squander. Probably less than 30% goes to where it does any good at all and even less gets to where it would do the most good.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

This is an issue we have to live already with by spending billions on aboriginals with little improvement. The question is do we want to be legally hamstrung by an organization-the UN, that would force us to spend millions more with no mechanism to ensure the money is being spent wisely? Of course some say, just keep spending, don't worry, ths money is for my people, it's no problem and those of you who won't continue to waste millions and billions are prejudiced rednecks.

Call it a big desire for accountability. People like Barlow are a menace when they spout off on such topics.

She should stick to Canada maintaining sovererignty over water and not allowing it to become a commodity so it can be sold around the world through trade deals. Trade deals reduce Canadian sovereignty also, but she intensely dislikes them because it gives power to corporations. She has bitten off more than she can chew involving the UN.

 

[Cliffy]

This is an issue we have to live already with by spending billions on aboriginals with little improvement. The question is do we want to be legally hamstrung by an organization-the UN, that would force us to spend millions more with no mechanism to ensure the money is being spent wisely? Of course some say, just keep spending, don't worry, ths money is for my people, it's no problem and those of you who won't continue to waste millions and billions are prejudiced rednecks.

People are jumping down your redneck because you are blowing smoke out your butt on a subject you have no clue about.

As Taxslave tried to educate you on, it is the DIA that absconds with most of the funds in a bureaucratic shell game that leaves very little for the indigenous people. The billions are wasted on bloated bureaucracies, not on the aboriginals or the reserves. And yes, some reserves have corrupt councils, most of whom are hand picked by the DIA to keep the people from getting ahead. Some reserves have managed to get ahead in spite of the DIA but the more remote reserves are in bad shape from neglect. But don't let that get in the way of you prejudices.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

People are jumping down your redneck because you are blowing smoke out your butt on a subject you have no clue about.

As Taxslave tried to educate you on, it is the DIA that absconds with most of the funds in a bureaucratic shell game that leaves very little for the indigenous people. The billions are wasted on bloated bureaucracies, not on the aboriginals or the reserves. And yes, some reserves have corrupt councils, most of whom are hand picked by the DIA to keep the people from getting ahead. Some reserves have managed to get ahead in spite of the DIA but the more remote reserves are in bad shape from neglect. But don't let that get in the way of you prejudices.

You are a stupid moron. A stupid ugly moron who eats shi*. *uck off and die.

So clueless morons, why don't you and you're brilliant friends here clean up abo reserves and show how great you are since you feel so strongly about abos?

 

[lone wolf]

Maybe you should go back to water....

 

[Cliffy]

You are a stupid moron. A stupid ugly moron who eats shi*. *uck off and die.

So clueless morons, why don't you and you're brilliant friends here clean up abo reserves and show how great you are since you feel so strongly about abos?

Oh my! Are you in need of a little more bran in your diet?

 

[JLM]

Oh my! Are you in need of a little more bran in your diet?

Looks to me like the "vacation roster" could be getting crowded in the near future! :lol:

 

[Chev]

CDNBear “If the water safety criteria on reserves is different than what the people find acceptable, why don't they modify the criteria. Aren't reserves self-governing?”
Yes and no.
“Is the problem that people on reserves want better criteria but their elected leaders aren't doing anything about it so the people want the federal gov't to step in and force their elected leaders to do something?”
Yes and no.
CDNBear, okay, so I’m an idiot… no I just want to understand.. Please explain your ‘yes and no’ Thanks

 

[Fingertrouble]

Not even in the slightest.

Moving an entire community, is costly. Take into consideration, many of these communities are fly in only. Then you have the costly logistics of packing an moving tons of belongings. Then you have to have adequate housing for the community, in the new location.

They'd still be on public assistance and there is no guarantee that they would get off it.

Then you have the iisue of substance abuse.

You know remove middlemen. Making both access and cost, more attainable.

The cost of a water treatment facility, upgrading or training, would pale in comparison, IMHO.

While I am in full agreement that everyone in this day and age should have access to clean water, when it comes to funding the cost of a treatment facility etc we cannot expect the full cost to be bourne by the tax payer alone. The community needs to stand up and take some of the responsibility (just as thousands of other Canadians have by drilling their own wells etc at there own expense). While there are many aboriginals (and I am talkingthe REAL aboriginals not the Quebecors) who are living below the poverty line, many of their Nations have large amounts of dollars from some ventures on the reservations and of course from the tax payers.

It is not unreasonable to ask for these areas of the country to pay a proportion of the costs of setting up a water system and then to pay monthly water fees as every other Canadian does in their local taxes or local providers monthly bill.

As an example, there is a community in the West of Calgary that used to be zoned into "Rocky Mountain" region for civic government etc. Some years back the community was brought into the City of Calgary and their water system was not of the same standard as Calgary city services. The City of Calgary carried out a large project to bring the sewage and water services up to the standard of Calgary's requirements and each home in the community was then asked to pay a portion of the development/construction costs while the City of Calgary covered the other portion of the costs. The amount was in the tens of thousands of dollars per household, but it was a water mortgage so each property had to pay approx $1400/year until 2024. It was linked to the property not the individual, so if the house was sold the new owner was responsible for this payment. Then each home in thecommunity still had to pay their monthly sewage/water fee and charge for amount of water used.

Something of this type of system could be used for these communties, with maybe the whole collective covering (i.e. each First Nation) could be responsible for making the yearly payments (therefore not exposing their community members who are at or below the poverty line the yearly costs) and providing their own communities with clean water. Then each houshold could then be responsible for the regular monthly bills.

Everyone deserves clean water, but we ALL need to make the effort and pay our far share to obtain it.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Chev]

How can you ignore the cultural differences though? That's a huge part.

‘Tonington “Originally Posted by taxslave…. Ignoring the cultural differences for a moment how many of us would stay in a community that has over 85% of the population on welfare? Probably none. “We would move to where there are jobs, schools etc or at least find a camp job somewhere so we could support our families” How can you ignore the cultural differences though? That's a huge part.’

If you think about it, and not only thinking of natives, but any other nationality, taxslave is right.. ‘Why would they stay in a community that has over 85% of the population on welfare?’ Would they not move to where there are jobs?? Being on welfare is only one option. But to some people, it appears that it’s their favourite option. Get money and benefits and don’t have to do anything….

 

[Cliffy]

If you think about it, and not only thinking of natives, but any other nationality, taxslave is right.. ‘Why would they stay in a community that has over 85% of the population on welfare?’ Would they not move to where there are jobs?? Being on welfare is only one option. But to some people, it appears that it’s their favourite option. Get money and benefits and don’t have to do anything….

The problem is that we have people from our culture trying to impose their values on people of another culture. People here cannot understand the nature of problems on reserves because we have no reference points. You would have to have lived through forced assimilation, the theft of all of your children, the residential schools with their cold hearted treatment of those children, of having everything you know taken away, your culture and spirituality demonized, beaten and thrown into solitary confinement for speaking your language, being forced to live on barren land that the "whites" didn't want, being treated as sub-humans for two hundred years, never really being accepted into the "white" social system, always being an outcast.

We are talking about generations of abuse. People who were deprived of family, love and all those things necessary to produce whole human beings. Yes, some have been able to rise above that, some have been able to assimilate (but at what cost?). It may be easy for us to sit in judgement of these people from our point of advantage, but is it right? What gives us the right?

 

[JLM]

The problem is that we have people from our culture trying to impose their values on people of another culture. People here cannot understand the nature of problems on reserves because we have no reference points. You would have to have lived through forced assimilation, the theft of all of your children, the residential schools with their cold hearted treatment of those children, of having everything you know taken away, your culture and spirituality demonized, beaten and thrown into solitary confinement for speaking your language, being forced to live on barren land that the "whites" didn't want, being treated as sub-humans for two hundred years, never really being accepted into the "white" social system, always being an outcast.

We are talking about generations of abuse. People who were deprived of family, love and all those things necessary to produce whole human beings. Yes, some have been able to rise above that, some have been able to assimilate (but at what cost?). It may be easy for us to sit in judgement of these people from our point of advantage, but is it right? What gives us the right?

You've hit the nail right on the head, too many people fail to realize that We made them that way, BUT at some point they also have to suck it up for their own good, the trend has to be broken and I think in many cases it has been as there are many accompished aboriginals among us today. :smile:

[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Cliffy]

You've hit the nail right on the head, too many people fail to realize that We made them that way, BUT at some point they also have to suck it up for their own good, the trend has to be broken and I think in many cases it has been as there are many accompished aboriginals among us today. :smile:

No doubt about it, but the problems that people are complaining about are on mostly remote reserves where little help has been given. Many are suffering from neglect and a government bureaucracy that is too interested on protecting their jobs rather than actually doing them.

 

[petros]

Where the **** is Strahl?

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

While I am in full agreement that everyone in this day and age should have access to clean water, when it comes to funding the cost of a treatment facility etc we cannot expect the full cost to be bourne by the tax payer alone. The community needs to stand up and take some of the responsibility (just as thousands of other Canadians have by drilling their own wells etc at there own expense). While there are many aboriginals (and I am talkingthe REAL aboriginals not the Quebecors) who are living below the poverty line, many of their Nations have large amounts of dollars from some ventures on the reservations and of course from the tax payers.

It is not unreasonable to ask for these areas of the country to pay a proportion of the costs of setting up a water system and then to pay monthly water fees as every other Canadian does in their local taxes or local providers monthly bill.

As an example, there is a community in the West of Calgary that used to be zoned into "Rocky Mountain" region for civic government etc. Some years back the community was brought into the City of Calgary and their water system was not of the same standard as Calgary city services. The City of Calgary carried out a large project to bring the sewage and water services up to the standard of Calgary's requirements and each home in the community was then asked to pay a portion of the development/construction costs while the City of Calgary covered the other portion of the costs. The amount was in the tens of thousands of dollars per household, but it was a water mortgage so each property had to pay approx $1400/year until 2024. It was linked to the property not the individual, so if the house was sold the new owner was responsible for this payment. Then each home in thecommunity still had to pay their monthly sewage/water fee and charge for amount of water used.

Something of this type of system could be used for these communties, with maybe the whole collective covering (i.e. each First Nation) could be responsible for making the yearly payments (therefore not exposing their community members who are at or below the poverty line the yearly costs) and providing their own communities with clean water. Then each houshold could then be responsible for the regular monthly bills.

Everyone deserves clean water, but we ALL need to make the effort and pay our far share to obtain it.

Just my thoughts.

The govt wants to see some from those getting the benefit. The govt is trying to get past the idea of being big brother and imposing a solution that doesn't fit. They want local people to get things started, have a plan, some money behind it already, and then they want to get onside. The govt, and taxpayers, don't like a heavy moral-legal "Do something!!!" obligation imposed from a person like Barlow.

I'm sure some water feasibility studies have been done for reserves but they have learned getting clean water economically to some isolated reserves isn't possible.

 

[DurkaDurka]

The govt wants to see some from those getting the benefit. The govt is trying to get past the idea of being big brother and imposing a solution that doesn't fit. They want local people to get things started, have a plan, some money behind it already, and then they want to get onside. The govt, and taxpayers, don't like a heavy moral-legal "Do something!!!" obligation imposed from a person like Barlow.

I'm sure some water feasibility studies have been done for reserves but they have learned getting clean water economically to some isolated reserves isn't possible.

How is it you know what the "government" thinks?

 

[petros]

If our govt thinks like he does we're ****ed.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

How is it you know what the "government" thinks?

Because I'm a mind reader.

Barlow is pursuing a paternalistic guilt trip idea that has gone out of style. The style of govt now in many cases is hands off. Tell us what you want and we will help you do it. Some call this democracy, the govt doing what the people decide. The PC crowd often doesn't like it.

 

[DurkaDurka]

Because I'm a mind reader.

Barlow is pursuing a paternalistic guilt trip idea that has gone out of style. The style of govt now in many cases is hands off. Tell us what you want and we will help you do it. Some call this democracy, the govt doing what the people decide. The PC crowd often doesn't like it.

\

The government has a singular mind you can tap into? Interesting.

The government of today is hardly hands off, otherwise it would have done absolutely nothing during the 2009 recession ror they wouldn't have blocked the sale of Telesat to a US defence company and they would have abolished the CRTC by now.

 

[CDNBear]

The question is do we want to be legally hamstrung by an organization-the UN, that would force us to spend millions more with no mechanism to ensure the money is being spent wisely?

I don't support the UN water treaty, never have and never will.

Of course some say, just keep spending, don't worry, ths money is for my people, it's no problem and those of you who won't continue to waste millions and billions are prejudiced rednecks.

Actually, I don't support just spending money on 'my people. And I don't think you're a moronic bigot, just because you now claim to just want checks and balances.

Call it a big desire for accountability.

I've actually protested for just that, and responsibility, in our Native leadership. The difference is, I use facts not generalizations. When I'm confronted with facts that prove my position erroneous, I concede.

People like Barlow are a menace when they spout off on such topics.

Something else you two share in common.

You are a stupid moron. A stupid ugly moron who eats shi*. *uck off and die.

Yer funny!

Sad, but funny.

So clueless morons, why don't you and you're brilliant friends here clean up abo reserves and show how great you are since you feel so strongly about abos?

Clean up which ones?

Do you know which reserves suffer from what malady?

Or are they all messed up, as you have continuously and erroneously claimed?

CDNBear, okay, so I’m an idiot… no I just want to understand.. Please explain your ‘yes and no’ Thanks

I don't have that kind of time, and there simply isn't one simple answer that covers all aspects of all reserves.

It is not unreasonable to ask for these areas of the country to pay a proportion of the costs of setting up a water system and then to pay monthly water fees as every other Canadian does in their local taxes or local providers monthly bill.

Yes it is. It's part of the contract.

Everyone deserves clean water, but we ALL need to make the effort and pay our far share to obtain it.

We already paid. You live on our part of the deal.

The govt wants to see some from those getting the benefit. The govt is trying to get past the idea of being big brother and imposing a solution that doesn't fit. They want local people to get things started, have a plan, some money behind it already, and then they want to get onside. The govt, and taxpayers, don't like a heavy moral-legal "Do something!!!" obligation imposed from a person like Barlow.

Neither do I actually.

I'm sure some water feasibility studies have been done for reserves but they have learned getting clean water economically to some isolated reserves isn't possible.

You do a lot of assuming eh.

Barlow is pursuing a paternalistic guilt trip idea that has gone out of style.

Actually, she more or less talking about doing what may have been contractually obligated.

Some call this democracy, the govt doing what the people decide.

No, that's mob rule.

The PC crowd often doesn't like it.

I'm not PC and I don't like it either.