Cops are becoming pansies

[Andem]

This reminds me of the W5 programme I recently saw on ctv.ca. RCMP: Beyond Justice?

Here's the link to the video CTV News | W5 investigates: When the RCMP pulls the trigger

 

[Colpy]

Quote: VANCOUVER, B.C. — Crown prosecutors have decided not to lay charges against a Vancouver police officer who shot a man eight times, killing him, more than two years ago.
Putting eight bullets into a man suggests a certain....what....panic? I wonder how many of the wounds would have been fatal. If he hit the guy eight times, how many shots missed? Sounds like he literally hosed the guy with bullets. Getting hit with a bicycle chain would not have been fun but does the threat of getting hit with a bicycle chain warrant emptying a gun at him?

IMHO, legally? Yes. Lethal force is lethal force, and you are allowed to apply the force until any threat has stopped. As long as the guy had the chain in his hand, he was a target. And shooting a guy 8 times with a S&W, SIG or Beretta 9mm takes only a couple of seconds......

Ethically? A whole different question.....which does not bear at all on the legality of it.

I just added a couple of vids of shooters, I only meant to add one, but added the wrong one first.... OOOPS. Take a look under Quick Shooter, to give you some idea of how long it takes to deliver multiple rounds......remember, the cop would have been much closer, and would not have had to reload.....

 

[#juan]

IMHO, legally? Yes. Lethal force is lethal force, and you are allowed to apply the force until any threat has stopped. As long as the guy had the chain in his hand, he was a target. And shooting a guy 8 times with a S&W, SIG or Beretta 9mm takes only a couple of seconds......

Ethically? A whole different question.....which does not bear at all on the legality of it.

I don't like it, but I understand legality is not in question. It just seemed to me a lot of hits. Did he empty the gun.....What would that be...14 shots? Somehow it doesn't sound like a reasonable response to a guy with a bicycle chain. I was hit with a bicycle chain when I was a teenager and while it hurt and I got a couple cuts, it wasn't that bad. Rather a bicycle chain than a knife or a baseball bat.

 

[AnnaG]

NO when you attack a police officer it is up to him or her of what force is deemed necessary to subdue the attacker.

The police are not there to demonstrate who is a better fighter and they are not there to entertain the public.

They are there to apprehend lawbreakers in a safe and efficient manner to themselves.

If it means shooting the suspect if they decide not to drop they’re weapon so be it

Yes, but if they shoot a person because they don't want to expend any energy subduing the attacker with a mind to safety of ALL concerned, then they aren't doing their job.

 

[AnnaG]

Cops are walking a pretty fine line, where they could be on the one hand like the situation in Mayerthorpe Alta. a few years ago, or on the other like the cop in Houston B.C. who took a lot of criticism for shooting an alleged drunk, obnoxious aggressor in the back of the head.

Sure they are. But that is what their trained for, is it not? Did the cop that killed the bipolar man have no other choice? The bipolar man probably wasn't trained in the violent use of bike chain, but the cop was trained in non-lethal take downs. Besides that, there were more cops there. Could one not have distracted the guy while the others tackled him? Nah, it's much easier to pull your pistol and plug the perp. IMO, it's a despicable lack of respect for life.

 

[AnnaG]

This incident sounds like the perfect place for use of the TASER.

You can only use lethal force "to protect yourself or another person from immediate danger of death or greivous bodily injury".

The officer can not be charged under the law, because swinging a bicycle chain puts the officer and his colleagues in "immediate danger of greivous bodily harm", therefore the officer was legally entitled to use lethal force. And when you choose to shoot, you shoot until there is no more threat.

Throwing a toothpick could be "immediate danger of grievous bodily harm" if it pierced an eye. Wrap jacket around arm and wait for the perp to swing the chain. Chain wraps around the jacketed arm and the other officers tackle him. The issue is ludicrous. What did cops do before they discovered they had sidearms? They took people down and cuffed them.

Now, I think it is a damn shame this guy got killed. I would guess unnecessary, but I was not there. But, as I said, this was a perfect scenario for the TASER.......a dangerous, out-of-control situation that legitimized lethal force, but would have been best handled by use of force that did not result in death.....

Balogna. What I see is lethal and excessive use of force.

 

[AnnaG]

That's right, so he had no training to follow.

Exactly. He also had no sidearm and even if he did, he wouldn't have used it to kill the guy. He has a good attitude towards life and decent discretion.

...because they were trained to do so.

Exactly. It's bad training if all they can think of doing is shooting people to death.

For the officers safety, he/she is not supposed to allow a threat close enough to use a baton on. That's what tasers are for.

So what is one supposed to do with the baton, throw it? Why wasn't that done?
So why wasn't a taser used then?
Nah, the guy refused to cooperate so that's good for the death sentence.:roll:

 

[AnnaG]

Hi Anna, you may be interested in reading the following link for the other side of the story.................CBC News In Depth: RCMP

Interesting. I didn't see any that were killed as a result of impact with bike chain, though.

 

[AnnaG]

This reminds me of the W5 programme I recently saw on ctv.ca. RCMP: Beyond Justice?

Here's the link to the video CTV News | W5 investigates: When the RCMP pulls the trigger

Thanks for reposting it, Andem (I posted it in #11, too). I thought it was a pretty good bit of journalism.

 

[AnnaG]

I don't like it, but I understand legality is not in question. It just seemed to me a lot of hits. Did he empty the gun.....What would that be...14 shots? Somehow it doesn't sound like a reasonable response to a guy with a bicycle chain. I was hit with a bicycle chain when I was a teenager and while it hurt and I got a couple cuts, it wasn't that bad. Rather a bicycle chain than a knife or a baseball bat.

Exactly. Scratch? Bruise at best. Big deal. One can heal from that. One can't heal from death.

 

[#juan]

Interesting. I didn't see any that were killed as a result of impact with bike chain, though.

Exactly Anna

The guy was probably bleeding out from the seven other wounds and he was on his hands and knees when that cop put a final shot through his head. It doesn't sound like a "good" shooting to me.

 

[Colpy]

Throwing a toothpick could be "immediate danger of grievous bodily harm" if it pierced an eye. Wrap jacket around arm and wait for the perp to swing the chain. Chain wraps around the jacketed arm and the other officers tackle him. The issue is ludicrous. What did cops do before they discovered they had sidearms? They took people down and cuffed them.

Balogna. What I see is lethal and excessive use of force.

Anna, I used to teach this stuff to armoured car guards, I'm not just talking through my hat.....there was no legal grounds to charge the guy.........

I would agree that there should have been some way to down this guy without shooting him..........but grievous bodily harm can certainly be caused by a bicycle chain, so there is simply no legal way to charge the cops.

 

[AnnaG]

Anna, I used to teach this stuff to armoured car guards, I'm not just talking through my hat.....there was no legal grounds to charge the guy.........

I would agree that there should have been some way to down this guy without shooting him..........but grievous bodily harm can certainly be caused by a bicycle chain, so there is simply no legal way to charge the cops.

As I said, the guy was probably not trained iin the martial art of bike chain, but the cops were trained in take down. "Overkill" seems to be an understatement here. Why didn't they run over him several times with a unit, too, while they were at it?
Besides, I did not post the topic as a comment on the legality of what the cops did. I am pointing out that the jerks aren't trained well, or simply have despicable attitudes or both.
"Shyte! The guy gave us the finger. And he's got a stapler (or bike chain, or pencil, pair of chopsticks, or....) Ventilate him, boys!"

 

[Colpy]

As I said, the guy was probably not trained iin the martial art of bike chain, but the cops were trained in take down. "Overkill" seems to be an understatement here. Why didn't they run over him several times with a unit, too, while they were at it?
Besides, I did not post the topic as a comment on the legality of what the cops did. I am pointing out that the jerks aren't trained well, or simply have despicable attitudes or both.
"Shyte! The guy gave us the finger. And he's got a stapler (or bike chain, or pencil, pair of chopsticks, or....) Ventilate him, boys!"

Well, that is pretty hard to argue with....with either you or Juan.

The problem is the training regimen concentrates on the principle that "The ONLY important thing is that you go home at the end of the shift........take NO chances"

For the police, that is simply wrong.

 

[JLM]

Sure they are. But that is what their trained for, is it not? Did the cop that killed the bipolar man have no other choice? The bipolar man probably wasn't trained in the violent use of bike chain, but the cop was trained in non-lethal take downs. Besides that, there were more cops there. Could one not have distracted the guy while the others tackled him? Nah, it's much easier to pull your pistol and plug the perp. IMO, it's a despicable lack of respect for life.

YOu could very well be quite correct, I don't know I was there and I doubt if any of us have seen the full report. YOu can give a person all the training in the world and will help offset ignorance and will enhance skills but it will do absolutely nothing to allay fear and emotions. We all have phobias about things that we know is ridiculous but you still have the phobia.

 

[AnnaG]

Well, that is pretty hard to argue with....with either you or Juan.

The problem is the training regimen concentrates on the principle that "The ONLY important thing is that you go home at the end of the shift........take NO chances"

For the police, that is simply wrong.

It's definitely wrong. Why bother arresting anyone? Just turn them all into road pizza. After all, they might give you a scratch or a bruise sometime in the future.

I think the people that investigate police involvement in shootings are no longer in touch with reality either.

 

[TenPenny]

Yes, shooting a guy 8 times is a bit of overkill, and a failure of training on the part of the police.

Threatening a cop with a bicycle chain is a failure of someone's upbringing. Just like in plane crashes, these things are usually the result of not one failure, but multiple failures.

If you're going to blame the cop, feel free to blame the dead guy, too.

 

[Goober]

The police are there to maintain the right. In other words, to uphold the law. Not to protect and serve.
You roll your eyes because as a Firefighter's wife, I am to expect you would come in contact with the cops. So what? I've come into contact with firefighters but that doesn't change anything.
You need to remember that the news media is half truth, half sensationalism. Because they say it is or isn't so doesn't make it the truth. You can read article after article on the same case and every reporter will give a different truth or slant to the same story.
If they can't handle stress they shouldn't be on the job! Weak. They handle stress daily. Everyone has a point where they need to back off. They might be cops but they are human first. Even doctors have a breaking point regarding stress.
I don't know about the bi-polar man. I never read the story. Would you like the cops to check out the medical status of every person before they do their job and uphold the law. The way you talk is that every person gets to pass go first and see whether or not there is really a reason to use the law and at the same time, you call the cops pansies and say they are afraid to break their nails. Do you want them to uphold the law or not? You seem to be giving a double message.

VI

8 Times - Last one thru the head - no mention of police attempting to take him down after 2, 3,4, 5, 6, or the 7th shot - 8th thru the head - Police nowadays -not all go to max mode - but some do - police know who the wackos are that should not be on the street - but the code prevents them from speaking - you know that as well as I - and any Officer bring that forward is in the words of that famous Chinese Scholar who is quoted in many languages - Fucxked -
also Police should never investigate themselves - that goes for Doctors and Lawyers as well -
Job stress - yes - they have assistance and help that is provided free - yes the is damage to their careers - But they have to take action - that is the mentality of the Police - This man was murdered - No other way of looking at it.

 

[VanIsle]

Thanks for reposting it, Andem (I posted it in #11, too). I thought it was a pretty good bit of journalism.

There is a difference between journalism and "the media". You are very bent on how you would do things differently then the police. I wonder how well you would do in their position! Poorly I think. In regard to police work you appear to have very little sense of how any of it works.8O

 

[VanIsle]

VI

8 Times - Last one thru the head - no mention of police attempting to take him down after 2, 3,4, 5, 6, or the 7th shot - 8th thru the head - Police nowadays -not all go to max mode - but some do - police know who the wackos are that should not be on the street - but the code prevents them from speaking - you know that as well as I - and any Officer bring that forward is in the words of that famous Chinese Scholar who is quoted in many languages - Fucxked -
also Police should never investigate themselves - that goes for Doctors and Lawyers as well -
Job stress - yes - they have assistance and help that is provided free - yes the is damage to their careers - But they have to take action - that is the mentality of the Police - This man was murdered - No other way of looking at it.

Goober, you know as well as I do that any action taken by the police these days is murder in the eyes of the public. I don't know why you are bringing job stress into it. I know that has been mentioned but only in the context that if they cannot handle the stress, they shouldn't be there. A stupid statement. How many of you people put yourselves in the actual position before you shoot your mouths off? Everyone is so full of "they should haves" rather than knowing what it's like to be there. The question was asked "what did they do before guns?" and anyone should know that the police in Canada have never been without guns. I've asked the question myself as to why the police don't shoot in an arm or a leg or some place that likely won't kill. The response was "Because if you are going to shoot, you shoot to kill". Now unless you are the one being threatened, you may not agree with that but people have to realize that not every person who is knocked down by a shot to an arm or a leg, stays down. A bicycle chain can harm a police officer enough that the person weilding the chain can then have the time to finish the officer off but that would be okay with everyone right? As long as it's only the officer that is hurt and not the person who wants to hurt them. In most places in Canada a police officer (especially the RCMP) an officer is alone. I don't know if this particular police officer had backup or not (as stated at some point earlier - I have not read the story and never heard of it before now)but how close can any of you (even if you were two) get to someone who is swinging a chain. Bike chains are metal and they do hurt and maim or worse. Maybe even cut out your eyes with the right swing. Kind of like being blinded by a toothpick if it's used right.
"police don't always go to the max mode but some do". So let's start a thread on the one(s) that do so they can all look bad and people can make idiotic comments.