Christmas tree banned from courthouse lobby

[tamarin]

People in western countries who actively subvert our customs and traditions must be confronted. It's not hard to do. Excuses will come but they're easily deflected. Two words more than any do the job: Nevertheless and Regardless.
Use them.
A) We're removing the tree because it might offend some faiths.
Reply: Nevertheless, this is a longstanding community tradition...
B) It's unacceptable to display religious holiday symbols in public institutions.
Reply: Regardless, community matters and its customs must be respected...

Oh, it's fun!

 

[selfactivated]

People in western countries who actively subvert our customs and traditions must be confronted. It's not hard to do. Excuses will come but they're easily deflected. Two words more than any do the job: Nevertheless and Regardless.
Use them.
A) We're removing the tree because it might offend some faiths.
Reply: Nevertheless, this is a longstanding community tradition...
B) It's unacceptable to display religious holiday symbols in public institutions.
Reply: Regardless, community matters and its customs must be respected...

Oh, it's fun!

Im going to have to play bad guy here. At what point is all this over-kill? Its on my TV my radio, the grocers, My damned doctors office! I guess I really dont mind the lights BUT the music is more than I can handle and Id like my (what few channels I get) to keep the holiday nonsense down to a minimum. Call me a grinch if you like but starting christmas in october is rediculous and by December Im Ho Ho'd out.

 

[RomSpaceKnight]

The "Christmas Tree" is a pagan symbol not christian. It is another example of the followers of the messianic prophet Jesus of Nazareth usurping our symbols and calling them their own. Unfortunately paganism is a marginalized and offtimes ridiculed spiritual path in North America. The Christ Mass was originaly the Yule celebration when the last feast of the year were held before the worst of winter set in and folks began to eat stored root vegetables, grains and salted meats or starved.

The exact origin of the Christmas tree seems under debate, but it is safe to say that this symbol evolved from Pagan tradition. The Norse pagans and Celtic Druids revered evergreens as manifestations of deity because they did not "die" from year to year but stayed green and alive when other plants appeared dead and bare. The trees represented everlasting life and hope for the return of spring. The druids decorated their trees with symbols of prosperity -- a fruitful harvest, coins for wealth and various charms such as those for love or fertility. Scandinavian Pagans are thought to be the first to bring their decorated trees indoors as this provided a warm and welcoming environment for the native fairy folk and tree elementals to join in the festivities. The Saxons, a Germanic pagan tribe, were the first to place lights on the their trees in the form of candles. Ancient Romans decorated their homes with greens at the Festival of Saturnalia, their New Year and exchanged evergreen branches with friends as a sign of good luck.
The first Christian use of the Christmas tree symbol is credited to 16th century when devout Christians also brought decorated trees into their homes. German born Prince Albert, husband of Queen Victoria, is credited with starting the trend in England in 1841 when he brought the first Christmas Tree to Windsor Castle. While Europe had already been celebrating Christmas for some time, the first recorded sighting of a Christmas tree in America came in 1830's Pennsylvania. It seems a local church erected the tree as a fundraising effort. Christmas trees were generally not thought kindly of in early America, as many people saw them as Pagan symbols, which is in fact, their origin. By the 1890's, however, Christmas ornaments were being imported from Germany and Christmas trees were in high fashion. While Europeans generally favored smaller trees about three to four feet in height, Americans, as usual, liked to do things big. Their trees proudly stretched from floor to ceiling. Popular ornaments with the German-Americans were natural items like apples, nuts, berries, marzipan and cookies. Popcorn, an American addition, eventually was added to the mix. With the advent of electricity, Christmas trees began to appear in town squares across America and the traditional "lighting of the tree" quickly became the official symbols of the beginning of the holiday season.

 

[northstar]

I agree Ottawa Bill...

A rabbi came on the news, yes CTV, and stated that this wasn't a Jewish problem.

The country was founded by English Christians, so when did they become demoted in such a way that now all of our dearly loved celebrations are being changed. The Christmas tree is not only part of our culture, but it is the centre piece for tourism at this time of year. And why is the traditional cultural celebration being challenged by a public servant?

This is in fact about the Constitutional Human Rights and Freedoms of Canada, and her move to impose her beliefs on others is NON-CONSTITUTIONAL. Due to the Honor that sh has been given, as a public servant, and the very generous salary, which is on par with our prime minister, she has absolutely no right to break the law.

This Judge should resign, and if not resign, she should be forced to leave the bench since she has demonstrated by act and by word that she is biased, discriminatory, disrespectful and willing to break the constitutional laws by which this country was founded.

I feel this is more than a mere tree. This is an action which proves that she is not a fair minded judge.

Thus, she should be forced to leave the bench or at the very least issue a public apology for breaking the constitutional law.

 

[RomSpaceKnight]

Because times change. Should we get stuck in the past and refuse to evolve. At one time women did not have the vote and it was thought best if they stayed home a pumped out babies. WASP's are slowly becoming less and less of the population. The first people here were natives, followed by the French and English. A win by the French on the Plains of Abraham could have meant that french speaking people could have been credited with starting this country. Large chunks of Saskatchewan were opened up by people of Ukranian descent. BC has a huge Chinese population. In metro Toronto WASP's are a minority. This white English speaking crap about starting this country is old history. If you think that all Canadians must speak English and attend christian churches I suggest you move south where assimilation of immigrants is expected. We are a cultural mosaic not a melting pot. Deal with it, live with it. Who are you to impose your beliefs on others. This is not about being politically correct it is about being a polite culture. All that said being polite for political sakes is impolite. Not to mention she had her facts wrong. See my above post for the truth about evergreen trees and the Yule holiday. And just so you know I am an immigrant from England born and raised in the Anglican faith.

 

[northstar]

You can spout off all you want but that doesn't change the facts-

This is in fact about the Constitutional Human Rights and Freedoms of Canada, and her move to impose her beliefs on others is NON-CONSTITUTIONAL. Due to the Honor that sh has been given, as a public servant, and the very generous salary, which is on par with our prime minister, she has absolutely no right to break the law.

This Judge should resign, and if not resign, she should be forced to leave the bench since she has demonstrated by act and by word that she is biased, discriminatory, disrespectful and willing to break the constitutional laws by which this country was founded.

I feel this is more than a mere tree. This is an action which proves that she is not a fair minded judge.

Thus, she should be forced to leave the bench or at the very least issue a public apology for breaking the constitutional law.

--the brilliant northstar

aw shucks...

 

[Sparrow]

The problem is that the loudest ones are the few noisy pissy leaders. What can WE do to fix this.

 

[RomSpaceKnight]

You can spout off all you want but that doesn't change the facts-

--the brilliant northstar

aw shucks...

I am quoting facts. You are expressing an opinion. Example I think you don't know what you are talking about is an opinion. A fact is that you do not know what you are talking about.

 

[Sparrow]

Exactly. Faith just on Sunday is not faith at all. In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that the main reason the Church is in decline the past 30 years is the lack of faith of its membership who see their local parish as some sort of social club. They go there on Sunday, all dressed up, kids sparkling and clean. They join in the prayers and litanies, sing the hymns and than go for coffee in the parish hall. Afterwards they go home and clearly not one word of the Gospel has reached their hearts. Not one word of the homily has drifted into their minds.

They complain, of course, about Father preaching about things they find distasteful to consider. That seems the only time they pay attention!

They will proudly tell you they go to this or that parish. They will tell you how "nice" the Mass is, or they will complain because of the usage of incense, or not using incense; using Latin or not using Latin; altar girls or no altar girls...etc..etc...etc. They will moan when they are asked to contribute to a fund to maintain the very building they should be paying for anyway. They think the parish is some sort of magic place that is self-sustaining financially.

When the Diocese mentions the possiblity of closing the parish, oh how they bitch at that time! They complain because they have memories in the building. They complain because they had events in the building...etc...etc....etc..Heaven Forbid they financially contribute to keep the building open!

But live the faith of the parish they attend..God forbid they should do such a thing. One of my most annoying experiences is going to visit with people who proudly show me their "family" Bible which they have had for years and years and years. It saddens and annoys me because almost always the Bible looks brand new despite its age...

And the reasons people have for not being faithful in their Sunday attendance..sheesh. I could write a flipping book just on the excuses I've heard!!

So why is the Church in decline....because the people of the Church are in decline with their daily faith...

sorry to go off...a sore point with me

Sorry but it's my turn to rant. FAITH is not going to chruch, that is religion. Faith is something in your heart that you live and practice everyday not just on Sundays. Religion on the other hand is the writing of man. Faith never taught us to look down on others because of their beliefs and practices nor did it ever send armies to war. You can be very religious but not have the faintest idea of what faith is. If you live your faith you will never harm anyone nor judge them, because God created everyone and he loves us all. Religion had judged and killed millions of people in the name only of faith.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

They go there on Sunday, all dressed up, kids sparkling and clean. They join in the prayers and litanies, sing the hymns and than go for coffee in the parish hall. Afterwards they go home and clearly not one word of the Gospel has reached their hearts. Not one word of the homily has drifted into their minds.

I thought that was just the Protestants...

I see your point though. Faith not taken seriously is no faith at all. I've seen the social club aspect of Sunday services so many times. I remember my parents dropping me and my siblings off for Sunday School in the church basement while the adult service was going on upstairs, and then driving away. All of us remember that, and all of us at some point came to the same question: if they're not going to take it seriously, why should we? it was just a babysitting service. That was a United Church. In high school I tried it again, for myself, and from my almost-adult perspective I perceived that the doctrine got so watered down in the unification as to be effectively meaningless, and a social club was all that was left. I tried the Anglican church as a young adult, even took the series of classes leading to adult confirmation, but had to bail out when I realized I'd be required to stand up in front of the congregation, the priest, and the bishop, and lie, say I believed things that I found simply preposterous. And it too was mostly just a social club in its routine operations, as far as I could tell. A pretty nice one, mind you, but not my idea of a church.

I never did find a church that made sense to me, and eventually abandoned them all and any pretence of belief.

But banning Christmas trees and being offended by Christian carols and hymns... well, anytime you think things couldn't get any stupider, just wait, they will.

 

[mapleleafgirl]

I thought that was just the Protestants...

I see your point though. Faith not taken seriously is no faith at all. I've seen the social club aspect of Sunday services so many times. I remember my parents dropping me and my siblings off for Sunday School in the church basement while the adult service was going on upstairs, and then driving away. All of us remember that, and all of us at some point came to the same question: if they're not going to take it seriously, why should we? it was just a babysitting service. That was a United Church. In high sc.

i dont get the whole sanctus point at all. it just seems silly to need this whole go to church thing, know what i mean???? why send kids to church, itsn't it better to let them learn faith on their own? and really, why do public buildings feel the need for displays of any religious holiday?if they do one, they should do all.

 

[RomSpaceKnight]

With the seperation of church and state, public buildings should probably not adorn the halls with anything. Faith and or religion is a personal matter. With all of us uptight self righteous types around someone is bound to take offence, be they followers of occidental, oriental or pagan faiths. You can't please every one.

 

[gopher]

I hardly doubt that the courthouse is the scene of much religious activity which would involve worshipping around the ole Christmas tree.

Yup. Or warrant the use of the Ten Commandments in Alabama's court.

 

[sanctus]

I hardly doubt that the courthouse is the scene of much religious activity which would involve worshipping around the ole Christmas tree.

Yup. Or warrant the use of the Ten Commandments in Alabama's court.

What does one have to do with the other? What do you mean "the use of"? Displaying them?

 

[sanctus]

With the seperation of church and state, public buildings should probably not adorn the halls with anything. Faith and or religion is a personal matter. With all of us uptight self righteous types around someone is bound to take offence, be they followers of occidental, oriental or pagan faiths. You can't please every one.

So why must it always be Christian symbols and scenes that are offensive? why cannot we state that we find Muslim or Jewish symbols offensive? For example, if stated that I found Muslim traditional dress on women offensive and owned a company where I would not allow this form of religious dress in my employees, the action groups would be all over me like a plague of locusts. I would be told I was promoting hate. If I required my Jewish employees to NOT wear their "beanies" or a Star of David, can you imagine the outcry this would cause! But let any minority group claim that this or that Christian symbol offends them, and the whole country goes out of its way to remove the symbols for fear of offending them. Somehow, this hardly seems fair, especially in a country where the majority of the people pay lip-service to belonging to one of the Christian denominations.

 

[sanctus]

when I realized I'd be required to stand up in front of the congregation, the priest, and the bishop, and lie, say I believed things that I found simply preposterous. And it too was mostly just a social club in its routine operations, as far as I could tell. A pretty nice one, mind you, but not my idea of a church.

I admire your truth. I wish more people would think like that who do go to Church on a regular basis. I'd rather pastor a congregation of a few committed Christians than hundreds of "Sunday Christians.", or the worst-the C&E Christians(Christmas and Easter only if you please).

Every Sunday in Catholic Masses as part of our worship we recite the Nicene Creed. I often wonder if the people reciting it realize it is a series of statements of beliefs and, as such, they are assenting to agreement in those beliefs.

 

[sanctus]

Sorry but it's my turn to rant. FAITH is not going to chruch, that is religion. Faith is something in your heart that you live and practice everyday not just on Sundays. Religion on the other hand is the writing of man. Faith never taught us to look down on others because of their beliefs and practices nor did it ever send armies to war. You can be very religious but not have the faintest idea of what faith is. If you live your faith you will never harm anyone nor judge them, because God created everyone and he loves us all. Religion had judged and killed millions of people in the name only of faith.

You certainly have a right to your point of view, but don't confuse organized religious groups with the behaviour of its membership. Religion has not killed or judged a soul ever. Men in these organizations, however, have, and saddly often in the name of the God they profess to love.

 

[mapleleafgirl]

ms fair, especially in a country where the majority of the people pay lip-service to belonging to one of the Christian denominations.

in my opinion if those moslems dont like our christian symbols and christmas stuff they can just pack up their stuff and march on back to arab land or lebinon or wherever they come from.

 

[selfactivated]

So its the christian way or the highway? Thats rich, yall steal the Pagans symbolism then shove it down our throats. Nice.

How about the idea of that in the "common" areas of society, the ones that EVERYONE must use no religious symbolism can be used. Thats fair and a simple rule to follow.

Jesus save me from your followers!

 

[sanctus]

in my opinion if those moslems dont like our christian symbols and christmas stuff they can just pack up their stuff and march on back to arab land or lebinon or wherever they come from.

Fine, but what if the Muslims who object are citizens? Is it required of Canadian citizens to be of any particular flavour of Christianity? And if you think yes, what flavour? I could just as easily suggest that all non-Catholics should leave Canada. Assuming you're not Catholic, would that please you? Or if the Anglicans decided only Anglicans could live here...where do you draw the line? And who makes these sorts of choices?