Christian Inclusiveness

[Motar]

Most red-tailed hawks prey on small mammals such as mice, voles, shrews, voles, squirrels, chipmunks, rats, rabbits opossums, muskrats, cats, skunks and bats. Other prey include snakes, turtles, frogs, lizards, salamanders, toads, ducks, bobwhites, crows, woodpeckers, starlings, doves, red-winged blackbirds, kingfishers, robins, owls, crawfish, centipedes, spiders, grasshoppers, crickets, beetles, earthworms and fish.

It strains the imagination to envision you and I and the red-tailed hawk as strict herbivores:

"Then God said, 'I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground - everything that has the breath of life in it - I give every green plant for food.' And it was so." (Genesis 1:29-30 NIV)

 

[darkbeaver]

After the descent to earth the man and woman saw themselves "naked" and registered shame. This is significant likewise. There are two typical phenomena attendant upon the soul’s descent to body and later re-ascent to spirit. They are called "divestiture" and the "investiture". Ancient theology portrayed a very real event by the typology of the soul’s putting on a heavier garment at each step of its descent, and its throwing off this garment at each step of its return on high. Each step downward involved its being clothed in a garment of coarser matter. Yet the putting on of grosser bodies was in effect the same as putting off its more real if less material bodies of spiritual glory. So from the standpoint of spiritual clothing they found themselves after descent utterly stripped. In the Old Testament a verse speaks of being "clothed with light as with a garment". In matter they found themselves unclothed, naked. And to stand thus spiritually bereft was a thing of degradation, hence shame. Before their descent, while yet in Eden, they perceived themselves "naked" (of material garments) and they were not ashamed!So, when their opened eyes revealed their privation, after the "fall", they hastened to cover their nakedness with the leaves - of all trees! - of the symbolic fig tree! The fig symbols motherhood or



27



material embodiment; and other myths depict man, when in incarnation, the realm of the Mother-matter, as putting on female clothing, or passing through his female phase, even manifesting the menstrualia as evidence of his having come under the law of periodicity which governs matter. AB Khun Let There be Light on Genesis

 

[Spade]

Sister Motar,
Forgiveness requires no sacrifice as it is freely given.
Listen to DB, Christ is an avatar; Jesus is a man.

 

[Motar]

So, when their opened eyes revealed their privation, after the "fall", they hastened to cover their nakedness with the leaves - of all trees! - of the symbolic fig tree! The fig symbols motherhood or material embodiment; and other myths depict man, when in incarnation, the realm of the Mother-matter, as putting on female clothing, or passing through his female phase, even manifesting the menstrualia as evidence of his having come under the law of periodicity which governs matter. AB Khun Let There be Light on Genesis

Interesting thoughts, DB.

"The fig tree is a fit emblem of Israel. Its peculiarity is that the blossoms of the fruit appear before the leaves. Naturally, therefore, we should look for fruit on a tree in full leaf. This accounts for why Jesus cursed the fig tree that had on it nothing but leaves." Study Resources :: Dispensational Truth :: Chapter 29. The Trees to Which Israel Is Compared In Scriptures

"Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, 'May you never bear fruit again!' Immediately the tree withered." (Matthew 21:18-19 NIV)

"Now it was about the first of April that Jesus cursed the fig tree, and the time of figs was not yet, because they did not ripen before June. But fig-trees which have retained their leaves through the winter usually have some of the last year's figs also, and as April was too early for new leaves or fruit, Jesus knowing this, and seeing leaves on the tree, naturally expected to find some of last year's fruit, and when He found none He cursed the tree because of its deceptive character." Study Resources :: Dispensational Truth :: Chapter 29. The Trees to Which Israel Is Compared In Scriptures

"Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, 'May no one ever eat fruit from you again.' And his disciples heard him say it." (Mark 11:13-14 NIV)

"The application of this incident to Israel is simple. Naturally Jesus from their 'leafy profession' would expect to find fruit on the tree of their national life, and when He found none He cursed them for their hypocrisy." Study Resources :: Dispensational Truth :: Chapter 29. The Trees to Which Israel Is Compared In Scriptures

If Christians believed in inclusiveness of their Gawd, there'd be no need for Christianity.

I understand your reluctance to expound on this, Brother, as navigating/concurring on the semantics would be onerous.

 

[darkbeaver]

The great myth of Genesis was intended to embalm for future ages a body of knowledge, of basic import, which would enlighten the human mind with correct data as to cosmogony and world building and enable it to function rationally with reference to actual evolutionary procedure. How grievously that mind has been darkened by loss of this primal sub-structure of thought may be glimpsed in the unfoldment of that lucid meaning which the study of symbolism has descried hidden beneath the mythical typology. The revelation of astonishing significance buried for centuries under the figures of the serpent, the tree, the woman, the rib, the garden and the action of the drama, may go far to convince the modern mind that the loss of the myths was a calamity of tragic proportions.



This particular myth is recondite and complex to a degree. It is all the more difficult perhaps, because the effort is usually made to read it in the single form in which it is found in the Christian Bible, where it is condensed from earlier Babylonian epics, such as the Gilgamesh story, the Berosan Akkadian version, and the Bundahish and Zend-Avesta accounts. It needs a comparative study of the Bible narrative along side of these other sources to gain inklings of meaning not indicated in the abbreviated story in Genesis. Supplementary detail in the others supplies interpretation not to be seen in Bible chapters. In promulgating the thesis that the Bible of all books alone contained Truth, Christian exegesis so far over-reached itself that it cut itself off from the help to be found in pagan literature. With the aid of parallel versions drawn from Greece, Egypt, Chaldea and Babylonia, authoritative determinations can be made which must fall with unbounded astonishment upon minds obsessed from childhood with ideas little short of chimerical and nonsensical in their purport. It can in truth



4



be said that not an item of the commonly accepted rendering of the story bears the remotest resemblance to its true meaning. It is not in any sense a geological or biological treatise. For the drastic re-interpretations to be presented there must be adduced as ample a body of evidence as space will permit.



To begin with, a most pernicious error in common assumption about Genesis is located in the general belief that the Bible narrative is a description of the formation of our earth, its sky, land and water divisions, and the generation of the human race. Genesis is not at all the creation of the world and man! In one sense, to be made clear as the interpretation proceeds, it can be held to cover the beginnings of the world and the race of men; but it must be iterated, it is not primarily, and certainly not exclusively, a recital of those grandiose events. What, then, is it? AB Khun Genisis New Lectures on the Ancient Wisdom--No 7.

You will not find the force of Christ in the Bible. You will find a product of evil men intent on enslaving you and your children with majik.

 

[Motar]

You will not find the force of Christ in the Bible. You will find a product of evil men intent on enslaving you and your children with majik.

Are you speaking from personal experience, DB? If so, I would be interested in hearing your personal testimony : )

"The fig tree is a fit emblem of Israel. Its peculiarity is that the blossoms of the fruit appear before the leaves. Naturally, therefore, we should look for fruit on a tree in full leaf. This accounts for why Jesus cursed the fig tree that had on it nothing but leaves." Study Resources :: Dispensational Truth :: Chapter 29. The Trees to Which Israel Is Compared In Scriptures
"Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, 'May you never bear fruit again!' Immediately the tree withered." (Matthew 21:18-19 NIV)
"Now it was about the first of April that Jesus cursed the fig tree, and the time of figs was not yet, because they did not ripen before June. But fig-trees which have retained their leaves through the winter usually have some of the last year's figs also, and as April was too early for new leaves or fruit, Jesus knowing this, and seeing leaves on the tree, naturally expected to find some of last year's fruit, and when He found none He cursed the tree because of its deceptive character." Study Resources :: Dispensational Truth :: Chapter 29. The Trees to Which Israel Is Compared In Scriptures
"Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, 'May no one ever eat fruit from you again.' And his disciples heard him say it." (Mark 11:13-14 NIV)
"The application of this incident to Israel is simple. Naturally Jesus from their 'leafy profession' would expect to find fruit on the tree of their national life, and when He found none He cursed them for their hypocrisy." Study Resources :: Dispensational Truth :: Chapter 29. The Trees to Which Israel Is Compared In Scriptures

While I support this commentator's suggestion of symbolism (fig tree = Israel), I disagree with some of this theology.

Sister Motar,
Forgiveness requires no sacrifice as it is freely given.
Listen to DB, Christ is an avatar; Jesus is a man.

I rather like this quiet spiritual conversation we're having (you and DB and myself), Dear Brother. Gone are attack words and pack mentality. The noise and deviation of previous raucous discussions have given way to calm and consideration : )

 

[darkbeaver]

Are you speaking from personal experience, DB? If so, I would be interested in hearing your personal testimony : )

Early in life I was condemned to spend much of my Sunday mornings listening to some chronological adult harp on about the holy ghost and later the same day ensured by my father and mother that no such thing as ghosts existed. They were all wrong. I soon thereafter started skipping Sunday school and transforming the collection plate dime into penny candy. A transformation I could sink my teeth into. This made Christ happy because I had exercised reason. Ever since then I decide what I will believe based on a taste test, a scientific experiment.

 

[Motar]

Early in life I was condemned to spend much of my Sunday mornings listening to some chronological adult harp on about the holy ghost and later the same day ensured by my father and mother that no such thing as ghosts existed. They were all wrong. I soon thereafter started skipping Sunday school and transforming the collection plate dime into penny candy. A transformation I could sink my teeth into. This made Christ happy because I had exercised reason. Ever since then I decide what I will believe based on a taste test, a scientific experiment.

Thanks for your testimony, DB. How were you able to experience Christ's approval?

 

[darkbeaver]

Thanks for your testimony, DB. How were you able to experience Christ's approval?

Ask and yea shall receive, knock and the door shall be opened, on and on they go like that, coined for thousands of years, toil, work, pain and exercise of your god given reason. Every one born a woman has Christ within them from the first sparking instant of conception. The purpose of life is to remember your past before the material body. We all have hereditary memories most buried deep some few wear them like a coat. No one except thee one can give you the spirit. Those basic are universal primal truths. We do not exist as either good or bad but in between them in balance in harmony. If there were no Satan there would be no Christ, they are a perfect reflection of each other. The most rewarding experience is exactly between them on the narrow road. All life is the tension between those cleaved pieces of the one thing. We are in the cleft in the much discussed Holy rock. These are my poor approximations of ancient truths. Study them yourself. You have nothing to loose.

 

[Motar]

Ask and yea shall receive, knock and the door shall be opened, on and on they go like that, coined for thousands of years, toil, work, pain and exercise of your god given reason. Every one born a woman has Christ within them from the first sparking instant of conception. The purpose of life is to remember your past before the material body. We all have hereditary memories most buried deep some few wear them like a coat. No one except thee one can give you the spirit. Those basic are universal primal truths. We do not exist as either good or bad but in between them in balance in harmony. If there were no Satan there would be no Christ, they are a perfect reflection of each other. The most rewarding experience is exactly between them on the narrow road. All life is the tension between those cleaved pieces of the one thing. We are in the cleft in the much discussed Holy rock. These are my poor approximations of ancient truths. Study them yourself. You have nothing to loose.

Thanks again for your witness, DB.

In my worldview, Christ is the mediator of my approval.

How do I know that I am accepted? He's a proven promise-keeper and I have his word on it : )

 

[darkbeaver]

Thanks again for your witness, DB.

In my worldview, Christ is the mediator of my approval.

How do I know that I am accepted? He's a proven promise-keeper and I have his word on it : )

And the word is?

 

[Motar]

And the word is?

Accept, DB.
Open this link: http://www.biblegateway.com/ Type the word "accept" into the search box and choose a Bible version. In the NLT, I found 178 hits for this word.

By God's design acceptance is a cooperative effort:

"But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God." (John 1:12 NLT)

"In every nation he accepts those who fear him and do what is right." (Acts 10:35 NLT)

"God knows people’s hearts, and he confirmed that he accepts Gentiles by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us." (Acts 15:8 NIV)

 

[darkbeaver]

Love

 

[Motar]

Love

Absolutely, DB.

"Dear friends, let us continue to love one another, for love comes from God. Anyone who loves is a child of God and knows God. But anyone who does not love does not know God, for God is love." (1 John 4:7-8 NLT)

 

[Motar]

Is it true that Jesus was inclusive? If so, in what sense was Jesus inclusive? Were there limits to Jesus’ inclusiveness?

"The interesting thing about the parables is that they are overwhelmingly inclusivist in general approach; the concept that only the Jews are the true people of God is often attacked, assumed privilege is often attacked, the great and priceless value of the gospel message is always upheld (often in contrast to the unreliability of worldly wealth), the responsibility of being steadfast and being prepared to grow in the Christian life also often comes out." The Gospel of Jesus Christ; An Inclusive Message

"There was a man who had two sons. The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them. Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything. When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ So he got up and went to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found." (Luke 15:11-24 NIV)

The prodigal son was always loved by the father. But he experienced acceptance only after he was ready/willing to extend it.

 

[darkbeaver]

"Their sojourn on earth is . . . a dreary exile from their proper home." Earth life is only a shadow of reality. In Egyptian scriptures the holy city of Aarru-Hetep (Salem) was to be built up by "the outcasts or the colonists from Egypt." St. Paul states that "we are a colony of heaven" (Moffatt translation). This is a clear Biblical intimation that we are expatriates from a higher world. Greek philosophy and mythology are replete with allusions to souls wandering on earth, exhiles from a diviner sphere. Most of the semi-divine heroes had long journeys and crusades assigned to them. And the Prodigal Son is of course the unquestioned representative of the exile’s role in Bible lore. From the

125

Greek philosopher Empedocles comes the echo of the sentiment that the soul has migrated to a foreign country:



"For this I weep, for this indulge my woe,

That e’er my soul such novel realms should know."

Moses’ son was Gershom, which the Moffatt translation gives as meaning "Stranger," with the parenthetical explanation: "For I have been a stranger in a foreign land."

In this connection there is the possibility of a rational solution of the meaning of a text in the Bible which, in its conventional reading, has proven a perplexity and a "hard saying." It appears to be a stroke at the fundamental integrity of human kinship, family affection. In Luke (14:26) Jesus tells the multitude that no one can be his disciple unless one hate father, mother, brother, sister and all kin. In the great Gnostic-Christian work, the Pistis Sophia (Bk. 2, p. 341) a text runs to nearly the same effect:

"For this cause have I said unto you aforetime, ‘he who shall not leave father and mother to follow after me is not worthy of me.’ What I said then was, ye shall leave your parents, the rulers, that ye may all be children of the first, everlasting mystery." AB KHUN LOST LIGHT

 

[Motar]

"For this cause have I said unto you aforetime, ‘he who shall not leave father and mother to follow after me is not worthy of me.’ What I said then was, ye shall leave your parents, the rulers, that ye may all be children of the first, everlasting mystery." AB KHUN LOST LIGHT

This is true, DB.

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26 NIV)

To embrace Christ, we must first let go of Adam.

 

[Motar]

Is it true that Jesus was inclusive? If so, in what sense was Jesus inclusive? Were there limits to Jesus’ inclusiveness?

Is Jesus Christ exclusive? Some consider the following verses to be exclusivist:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7:13-14 NIV)

"Jesus wished to prepare the disciples for the fact that most would reject their message, maybe they had been too enthusiastic on this point. Today most still reject the message of Christianity; for many years western culture had given huge respect to Christianity and it was always granted a place and position of respect - that is now almost completely gone. But - in this present world and during this age of the church - most reject the gospel and just a few come to Christ; that is all this text is saying. Jesus was considering the intense philosophical/religious world which the apostles would necessarily soon enter; He was preparing them, and He prepares every modern Christian too, that rejection should be the commonly expected response." The Gospel of Jesus Christ; An Inclusive Message

The social/self-exclusion of post-Christian culture and personal rejection of Christ are prominent in the public arena today. But a remnant of regenerate souls are still being quietly gathered in.

 

[Spade]

Dear Sister,
If, by the message, you mean charity, non violence, forgiveness, pacifism, brotherhood, equality, and so on, these ideals are human constructs that elevate our species and are accepted by most sentient creatures. - secular or non.
If, by the message, you mean Jesus was a god, and that the Happy hunting Grounds are reserved for only those who accept this without wincing, then you are right.
Which is better? Your choice, sister.
I remain your brother,
Spade

 

[darkbeaver]

This is true, DB.

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26 NIV)

To embrace Christ, we must first let go of Adam.

To embrace Christ we must first let go of the fleshy Jesus.

All old theologies aver that the blood of the gods, or of God, mixed with the clay of earth, makes the "red earth" which is given as the etymological signification of Adam in Hebrew, i.e., man. Man is compounded of the red life-blood of deity and the dust of the ground, which in Hebrew is Adamah, purely the feminine or material aspect of Adam, spirit, itself. Deity mixed together spirit and matter to make man.