Chavez ... Human Rights Violator ... and Liar

Nascar_James

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Re: RE: Chavez ... Human Righ

Andygal said:
Chavez has a right to ask those people to leave. It's HIS COUNTRY. He's in charge. He can ask them to leave if he wants. And as for "lies" I find HIM a lot more credible then American neoconservative spin doctoring.

Typical. The left will support anyone who sees things their way, even if it means suporting a Human Rights violator and Blaitant liar. Someone who mistreats his native community.

Andygal, I noticed you haven't expressed concern for the natives in Venezuela who have stated that the US missionary group was helping them versus Chavez who was abusing and neglecting their needs.

What do you have to say about these natives being left out in the cold now that the US missionary group will leave. They said so themselves. You don't think about them do you?

It seems all the left cares about is their own selfish needs...tsk tsk too bad.
 

#juan

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Typical. The left will support anyone who sees things their way, even if it means suporting a Human Rights violator and Blaitant liar. Someone who mistreats his native community.

Funny how we get nothing but positive reports from everyone but the U.S.. Chavez has twice been fairly elected by a majority of his people. It is none of your, or your country's business how he runs Venezuala. Why do Americans not understand that?
 

peapod

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Well jaun, I think its because they want yet another country's natural resources, and they will try to obtain it with any methods possible...hypocrites!
 

Nascar_James

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#juan said:
Typical. The left will support anyone who sees things their way, even if it means suporting a Human Rights violator and Blaitant liar. Someone who mistreats his native community.

Funny how we get nothing but positive reports from everyone but the U.S.. Chavez has twice been fairly elected by a majority of his people. It is none of your, or your country's business how he runs Venezuala. Why do Americans not understand that?

Juan, when any country mistreats it's own communities, it is left up to the outside world to intervene to stop it. I wonder now that the native communities in Venezuala have spoken up against Chavez, if someone will go in to stop his practices of abuse. I surely hope so.
 

#juan

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Nascar wrote:
Juan, when any country mistreats it's own communities, it is left up to the outside world to intervene to stop it. I wonder now that the native communities in Venezuala have spoken up against Chavez, if someone will go in to stop his practices of abuse. I surely hope so.

Would you say the U.S. has treated their indigenous people perfectly? If not, should someone have stopped the American abuse of the Indians. Should someone have stopped Custer from killing whole villages? Eventually Sitting Bull did exactly that. The U.S. can't preach to anyone about abuse of indigenous people.
 

Said1

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RE: Chavez ... Human Righ

I for one am concerned about missionaries being expelled, especially when they are welcomed by the people they are helping and doing what seems to be accomplishing the missions goals.

Also, the Krina people had gathered and organized themselves against Chavez, he had no choice but meet some of their demands, after all the world is watching.
 

#juan

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Nascar_James

Venezuela--Venezuela has a population of approximately 24 million people, some 80% of whom live in a narrow urban belt running along the Caribbean coast and slightly inland. Venezuela is a young country, with an estimated half the population under 20 and around 70% under 35. Almost 70% of the population is mestizo, or a mix of Spanish, European, indigenous, and African ancestry. Another 19% are considered white, and 10% are black. While indigenous peoples make up only about 1% of the population, their influence and presence are noticeable. Venezuela has more than 20 different indigenous tribes totaling some 200,000 people. The principal tribes are the Guajiro, found north of Maracaibo; the Pémon, Piaroa, Yekuana, and Yanomami, who live in the Amazon and Gran Sabana regions; and the Warao of the Orinoco Delta.

The surprising thing is, that while Chavez has only been in power a few years, he has done a fair amount to help the indigenous people who only make up less than one percent of the population.
 

Reverend Blair

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Apr 3, 2004
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RE: Chavez ... Human Righ

It is doubtful that they the missionaries are welcomed by most of the indigenous population. If you look at the people quoted in Nascar's little article, they have ties either to missionaries or to US-funded anti-Chavez organisations.

Chavez, on the other hand, draws most of his popular support from the indigenous populations.

If you have a look into the New Tribes organisation, you'll find that they are some very dubious people carrying out dubious work for ducious reasons. Given their history and their connections, it is not reasonable to consider them a religious group. It is reasonable to consider them a political that is trying to destabilise the current government though.
 

Said1

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Re: RE: Chavez ... Human Righ

Reverend Blair said:
It is doubtful that they the missionaries are welcomed by most of the indigenous population. If you look at the people quoted in Nascar's little article, they have ties either to missionaries or to US-funded anti-Chavez organisations.

Chavez, on the other hand, draws most of his popular support from the indigenous populations.

If you have a look into the New Tribes organisation, you'll find that they are some very dubious people carrying out dubious work for ducious reasons. Given their history and their connections, it is not reasonable to consider them a religious group. It is reasonable to consider them a political that is trying to destabilise the current government though.

For example??
 

Hard-Luck Henry

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An article about the history of NTM in Venezuela:

In 1946, members of the North American based New Tribes Mission, a fundamentalist Protestant sect, entered Venezuela from across the Colombian border. Posing as tourists and “curious explorers,” they settled along the Negro River in the region known as Casiquiare. At the time, the area was used for the exploitation of natural rubber which had not yet been replicated as a synthetic fiber and was, as such, still a vital strategic material. The arriving missionaries were not given a particularly warm welcome by the indigenous peoples living in the immediate area. The Aquencwa Indians, then led by their leader Horacio Acisa, soon began to violently resist their unwelcomed northern visitors.

From 1945 to 1948 a coalition of nationalist military officers allied to the anti-clerical political party, Acción Democrática, ruled the country. Nonetheless, New Tribes continued to reside in Venezuela in spite of the central government’s marked hostility to its members. Following a coup d’etat in 1948, Venezuela came under outright military rule. However, to the consternation of Antonio Justo Silva, the governor of the federal territory of Amazonas, “no one thought to ask why these missionary groups were staying in Amazonas.” But in 1954 their status was officially legalized thanks to a permit issued by the military authorities under the pro-U.S. General Marcos Pérez Jiménez dictatorship.

Curiously, in that same year, the New Tribes missionaries abandoned their villages along the Negro River and settled in the Guayana Shield, where deposits of radioactive minerals had been discovered. What is more, a tantalizing tidbit was provided by muckraking journalists Charlotte Dennett and Gerard Colby: “On Brazil’s border with Venezuela were uranium deposits that the [Brazilian] regime had targeted for the development of nuclear energy and, some feared, nuclear bombs.” They also claimed that the presence of uranium ore was found on the traditional lands of the Yanomami, the largest unacculturated tribe in the Brazilian Amazon. Also present in the adjoining area was the Summer Institute of Linguistics, a New Tribes ally as well as an evangelical missionary organization in its own right, that specialized in translating the Bible into local dialects. Its adherents could be found among the Yanomami in Venezuela, where they were studying the languages of the region from their Porto Velho base in Brazil. Writing to Venezuela’s Minister of Justice, Justo expressed his concerns about the New Tribes. In the course of six years of residence, according to the official, the missionaries had nothing to show for their work and had not accomplished anything for the Indians. Justo was openly suspicious of the evangelicals, who would inexplicably abandon sites and move to other areas. “It makes one suspect,” he wrote, “that they [the New Tribes missionaries] have another objective.”

New Tribes: A State within a State?
New Tribes was fast on the road towards becoming a veritable transnational organization spanning much of Latin America. Operating in remote, far-flung areas, usually distant from the effective reach of the central government, the missionaries could count on every form of communication and transportation equipment, including aircraft. What’s more, New Tribes at the same time was indoctrinating indigenous tribes in other South American countries such as Colombia, Brazil, Bolivia and Paraguay. In 1959, Acción Democrática returned to power and President Romulo Betancourt authorized the missionaries to operate in Amazonas. Eventually, the missionaries would be active in an immense zone encompassing not only this territory but also the states of Apure, Bolivar, and part of Monagas. In total, New Tribes had access to 30% of Venezuela’s national territory.

To carry on its ambitious work, the organization had a staff of more than 150 including missionaries, linguists, pilots, engineers, technicians and others. It also had its own communication network. By 1980, God’s soldiers had 2 Bible institutes, 6 basic training camps, a linguistic institute, a radio station, a medical center, and a housing complex for retired missionaries. Even more impressive, New Tribes built 29 air strips from which their light aircraft fleet operated. The airstrips and settlements all fell under their exclusive control. According to one investigator, “not even the armed forces can easily use those airports. In fact, the runways are constructed for specially equipped planes that can land on extra short runways.”

It was at this time that two anthropologists dropped a bombshell by charging that New Tribes was trying to create a state within a state by turning the Indians against the Venezuelan military. According to their findings, the missionaries had circulated flyers amongst the Panare Indians, written in the E’napa tongue but edited in the United States. The literature attempted to discredit the National Guard and sought to pit the Indians against its local units.

At the time, New Tribes was working with two aviation companies, Mission Air Force and Wings of Aid. In fact, the president of New Tribes, Jaime Bou, was also president of the latter. One of the principal tasks of the airlines was to transport supplies and missionary staff from Brazil to Venezuela and onwards to the U.S. From Puerto Ayacucho southwards, the Amazonas area was considered a transit zone prohibited to civilian traffic. However, New Tribes missionaries were allowed to circulate freely and the missionaries were not subject in the least to rigorous controls by Venezuelan authorities. In an overview of the New Tribes operations, one writer noted, “this adds up to a colonial enclave in the middle of the Amazon jungle.”

The rest of the article

The NTM has been involved in controversy in many countries on the developing world, such as in Papau New Guinea and The Phillipines. Indigenous movements in West Papua have declared missionaries one of the 'Four Enemies of Tribal People' and say that they are as responsible as mining or logging companies for ecological and cultural destruction. First comes Christianity and then corporations.
 

Said1

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Hard-Luck Henry said:
The NTM has been involved in controversy in many countries on the developing world, such as in Papau New Guinea and The Phillipines. Indigenous movements in West Papua have declared missionaries one of the 'Four Enemies of Tribal People' and say that they are as responsible as mining or logging companies for ecological and cultural destruction. First comes Christianity and then corporations.

No, first comes the corrupt leader who allows this to take place, right?

And as far as true enemies of the tribal people, it's government, plain and simple.
 

#juan

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New Tribes Mission

To carry on its ambitious work, the organization had a staff of more than 150 including missionaries, linguists, pilots, engineers, technicians and others. It also had its own communication network. By 1980, God’s soldiers had 2 Bible institutes, 6 basic training camps, a linguistic institute, a radio station, a medical center, and a housing complex for retired missionaries. Even more impressive, New Tribes built 29 air strips from which their light aircraft fleet operated.

Oh yeah, just simple missionary folk.
 

Said1

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peapod

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Man! what is more sickening than blantant hypocrites! Funny innit, sadam good guy, than sadam bad guy...we gots to spread freedom...how stupid do you think people are 8O 8O. Doing everything to munipulate other countries for their natural resources. mmmmmmmm gee I wonder when this guy will become a bad guy...right now tho he is a good guy....go figure...hypocrites!

Uzbekistan, one of the most repressive regimes in central Asia. In April 2002 a special UN rapporteur concluded that torture in the country was "systematic" and "pervasive andpersistent ... throughout the investigation process". In the same year Muzafar Avazov, an opposition leader, was boiled alive for refusing to abandon his religious convictions and attempting to practise religious rites in prison. In 2003 Bush granted a waiver to Uzbekistan when its failure to improve its human rights record should have led to its aid being slashed. In February 2004 the US secretary of defence, Donald Rumsfeld, visited the country's dictator, Islam Karimov, and said: "The relationship [between our countries] is strong and growing stronger. We look forward to strengthening our political and economic relations."


Sell your lies to someone else, no one is buying it anymore!
 

Reverend Blair

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Ii will find examples of this in the above "paper" and aricle?

A group that comes in a sows discord in a politically unstable region, especially if it has ties to outside entities that stand to benefit from further destabilisation, is clearly acting to destabilise the government.

Can you understand that, Said, or is it necessary to provide an outside link? I realise that original thought is discouraged, and making inferences of our own is considered untenable by some, but if you have a problem with my argument, why not take a shot at refuting it?