Man dies after Taser shock by police at Vancouver airport


CBC News
#1
A man in his 40s died early Sunday morning after RCMP jolted him with a Taser at the Vancouver International Airport, police said.
Richmond RCMP Sgt. Pierre Lemaitre, above, said the man was enraged, pounding on windows and throwing chairs and computer equipment, and refused to calm down.
(CBC)
Airport security called the Mounties for assistance after an unidentified man began pounding on windows and throwing chairs and computer equipment in the customs area shortly after arriving on an international flight at 1:30 a.m., Richmond RCMP Sgt. Pierre Lemaitre told CBC News.
When he ignored orders to calm down, police used a stun gun on the man.
The man dropped to the floor and police said it took three officers to handcuff him. He then lost consciousness and appeared to go into cardiac arrest and was pronounced dead at the airport.
16 people in Canada have died from Taser guns.
Full Story
Are Tasers being overused?


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JoeSchmoe
#2


I have to agree witht he ex-safety council expert. 16 people dead since 2003 is significant.... alternatives need to be looked at. Could these cases have been handled without a taser? If the answer is "yes" to a significant portion of them then the use of the taser would seem to me to be over-used.

However, if I was a cop and a dude was throwing furniture and acting extremely violently I would rather zap him rather than risk a broken face of my own....

HOWEVER, the cops should not be investigating themselves. They need oversight by a third party. As we have seen with the top brass in the RCMP, power corrupts.
 
IdRatherBeSkiing
#3
Whats the alternative? How many of those 16 would have shown up on a fatality list as having been shot by a police gun?

This guy was a danger to the other people around him. A tazer was justified in this situation lacking any other method of subduing him.
 
Locutus
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiingView Post

Whats the alternative? How many of those 16 would have shown up on a fatality list as having been shot by a police gun?

This guy was a danger to the other people around him. A tazer was justified in this situation lacking any other method of subduing him.

According to some (those who would retreat from a face to face confrontation or have never even been in a fist fight no doubt), we should use harsh language and sarcasm to calm down a baddie . Maybe a verse or two of kumbaya. Sickens me. They don't like authority, can't stand police or the military.

The guy was out of control and likely died as a result of other circumstances.

"Richmond RCMP Sgt. Pierre Lemaitre said witnesses reported seeing the man, whose identity has not been released, sweating profusely and showing the whites of his eyes when he began violently tossing chairs and luggage inside the airport early Sunday."

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/...ser-death.html
 
karrie
#5
I think the first question you pose is still a valid one, even if it's a justifiable shooting... we should ALWAYS be looking for alternatives to risking someone's life, so long as those alternatives don't impede the ability of the officers to carry out their job (any moreso than it's already impeded).

Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiingView Post

Whats the alternative? How many of those 16 would have shown up on a fatality list as having been shot by a police gun?

This guy was a danger to the other people around him. A tazer was justified in this situation lacking any other method of subduing him.

 
William Ashley
#6
man that sucks, what are the chances of that... and at an airport of all places... and an international eastern european...

heh.

My condolences go out to the family of the man, in this very odd occurance -- that would suck if all this was over lost luggage....

I won't trivialize this by making jokes.

Tasers are dangerous MMMKAY.

Pepper spray sucks too..

what makes this more intersting is you don't know which one you are going to get.

The moral of the story is.. guns permanently maim, and would likely kill more often. (good thing it wern't an air marshall that was handling the situation... like that incident that happened in was it argentina.. guy tried to board the plane and got pumped full of lead. I just realized the end result may not have made much difference in this one)

What is a foamer block too expensive.. didn't the military make all kinds of non lethal weapons.. why is it people still die from nonlethal weapons?

anyway.. the thing that I was like whoa about is that the guy complied with the RCMP and he was still tazered and died.. (maybe he complied after he was tazered.. but arn't you imobilized immediately after being tazered.. very confused) I notice this report said he did not comply.. but I thought I read an earlier report that said that he did comply I guess I must be mistaken.
Last edited by William Ashley; Oct 16th, 2007 at 10:22 PM..
 
flutterby
#7
the man was Polish and didn't understand english. if he didn't complt it was because he didn't know what he was being told.
 
DurkaDurka
#8
Cops need to get back to basics and just smash people with billy clubs... are cops that afraid of a little close combat?
 
#juan
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

I think the first question you pose is still a valid one, even if it's a justifiable shooting... we should ALWAYS be looking for alternatives to risking someone's life, so long as those alternatives don't impede the ability of the officers to carry out their job (any moreso than it's already impeded).

You are right there were four big strong mounties who should have been able to get this guy under control without the tasers. Knowing the past record of the 16 taser deaths, maybe there was a better alternative. As it happened, the man was tasered four times. I'm not surprised the man died.
 
Tonington
#10
Dude was in the airport for something like 9 hours getting processed by immigration, after an eleven hour flight which was delayed a few hours leaving Frankfurt. He was asking for police before they showed up, because he needed assistance. His sponsor(his mother) after waiting for so many hoiurs left the airport and returned home to Kamloops. It's a sh|tty story. I really have trouble believing though, that four times is really necessary. Shock him once, then throw the bodies on him.
 
Niflmir
#11
So a taser is a weapon that is deemed to be so abhorrent that ordinary Canadian citizens are guilty of an indictable offense for merely possessing one. They are guilty of a second indictable offense if they possess one when they are aware that its possession is prohibited. Both crimes carry a maximum sentence of two years in prison.

If a taser is considered a legitimate weapon for use in self defense, then why are ordinary citizens prohibited from such usage and considered criminals for its mere possession?
 
MikeyDB
#12
Niflmir

There you go again expecting common sense to reside in government policy!

Canadians are trained consumers, conditioned thinkers and manufactured personalities....

Police, doctors, politicians and entertainers are the government of this country, with the odd priest mullah and minister thrown in to keep the "believer" rabble satisfied....

It's simply not reasonable to think that the average Canadian would be capable of handling the responsibility of owning a weapon like a taser.....

I hear soon though that Canadians will be allowed to purchase thirty-five hundred pounds of high-horsepower steel and hurtle themselves down paved alley-ways.... something about "freedom" being the privilege of "driving"....

Weird system here in Canada.....
 
Tonington
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

If a taser is considered a legitimate weapon for use in self defense, then why are ordinary citizens prohibited from such usage and considered criminals for its mere possession?

Perhaps similar to governments having right to use chemical weapons to subdue crowds, while a citizen is denied such to use against an attacker.

Besides, not everyone can be the jail guard in the experiment that is society.
 
Niflmir
#14
Haha, too true.

I remember someone pointing out to me how hypocritical the drinking age vs. the driving age is.
Driving age: Age you can endanger other people if you behave irresponsibly.
Drinking age: Age you can endanger your own life if you behave irresponsibly.
Apparently killing other people is closer to child like innocence than killing your self?
 
IdRatherBeSkiing
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by flutterbyView Post

the man was Polish and didn't understand english. if he didn't complt it was because he didn't know what he was being told.

So that makes it ok for him to go bizerk and trash an airport? If you are in a foreign land where you don't understand the language -- tread carefully. Its not the responsibility of the law enforcement officers to know how to communicate in every language known to man.
 
Tonington
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiingView Post

Its not the responsibility of the law enforcement officers to know how to communicate in every language known to man.

It should be for immigration officials, but not every language obviously. As I said earlier, he was delayed in getting to Vancouver in the first place, and the shifts at midnight are not nearly as well staffed as the day shifts. I can understand his frustration. Nearly 24 hours in transit, and in the end no way to effectively communicate.
 
Niflmir
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

It should be for immigration officials, but not every language obviously. As I said earlier, he was delayed in getting to Vancouver in the first place, and the shifts at midnight are not nearly as well staffed as the day shifts. I can understand his frustration. Nearly 24 hours in transit, and in the end no way to effectively communicate.

Too true. At the end of a trans-atlantic, I am so burnt out that I can barely speak English, let alone try to communicate with someone in a foreign language to try to figure out where the heck my luggage is.

On another note, aren't police supposed to be trained on how to disarm attackers? Surely, a chair is easier to disarm than a knife, perhaps this is the evidence I have been looking for to prove the ineffectiveness of disarming techniques.
 
karrie
#18
I'd have to wonder though Niflmir, how many officers are injured or killed every year attempting to fight hand to hand with criminals, versus how many criminals die from taser shots?

Is it good policy to try to 'disarm' someone? To assume you can best them in close combat (even with four officers)? Or is it better policy to taser them and let the chips fall where they may?

Especially given the rise in the number of women on police forces, I could never hazard a guess as to what the best procedure would be frankly. (although, I'm sure repeated tasering is not in their policies)
 
gerryh
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

I'd have to wonder though Niflmir, how many officers are injured or killed every year attempting to fight hand to hand with criminals, versus how many criminals die from taser shots?

Is it good policy to try to 'disarm' someone? To assume you can best them in close combat (even with four officers)? Or is it better policy to taser them and let the chips fall where they may?

Especially given the rise in the number of women on police forces, I could never hazard a guess as to what the best procedure would be frankly. (although, I'm sure repeated tasering is not in their policies)


You're right Karrie....just pull a gun a shoot the SOB...... he deserves it anyways

BTW....what does the number of women on the police force have to do with anything? Are you saying that they are incapable of doing the same job as the men? If that's the case, what the hell are they doing on the job.

I, personally, question the competancy of the cops.....it took at least 3 of them to "subdue and cuff" the man AFTER he was tasered. WTF?
 
Niflmir
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

I'd have to wonder though Niflmir, how many officers are injured or killed every year attempting to fight hand to hand with criminals, versus how many criminals die from taser shots?

Is it good policy to try to 'disarm' someone? To assume you can best them in close combat (even with four officers)? Or is it better policy to taser them and let the chips fall where they may?

Especially given the rise in the number of women on police forces, I could never hazard a guess as to what the best procedure would be frankly. (although, I'm sure repeated tasering is not in their policies)

That's a good question actually, the number of police officers dying trying to disarm. I wouldn't say its good policy to disarm, better to isolate to minimize damage and wait until they need a sandwich.

I remember reading that only a small fraction of an ampere passing through a heart is enough to cause a heart attack, then keep in mind that hundreds of thousands of volts are common in tasers, and wonder if our body really has mega ohm per meter resistivity...

Couldn't they just use a weighted net?
 
karrie
#21
I very clearly stated that I didn't know what the right procedure would be gerryh... I NEVER said he should have been tasered, or shouldn't have. Your first line is ridiculous.

As for femal officers, I'm saying that they may be at a direct disadvantage in a hand to hand situation with a male, yes. Does that make them inefficient or bad cops? No. Ability to overpower someone else isn't the measure of a good officer. But, most female cops I know could probably knock 90% of men on their arses anyhow.

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

You're right Karrie....just pull a gun a shoot the SOB...... he deserves it anyways

BTW....what does the number of women on the police force have to do with anything? Are you saying that they are incapable of doing the same job as the men? If that's the case, what the hell are they doing on the job.

I, personally, question the competancy of the cops.....it took at least 3 of them to "subdue and cuff" the man AFTER he was tasered. WTF?

 
karrie
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

That's a good question actually, the number of police officers dying trying to disarm. I wouldn't say its good policy to disarm, better to isolate to minimize damage and wait until they need a sandwich.

I remember reading that only a small fraction of an ampere passing through a heart is enough to cause a heart attack, then keep in mind that hundreds of thousands of volts are common in tasers, and wonder if our body really has mega ohm per meter resistivity...

Couldn't they just use a weighted net?

You know, just about every single technology that police have to subdue someone ends up going wrong and getting someone killed. A weighted net could end with him getting a cracked skull and dying due to a brain bleed.
 
Tonington
#23
I think you're right Karrie. Tranquilizer, death due to histamine reaction, taser, heart stops, weighted net, broken neck or the like, rubber bullets, again possible death.

I really think the baton works best, but looks perhaps the worst. Pepper spray isn't always effective.
 
karrie
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

I think you're right Karrie. Tranquilizer, death due to histamine reaction, taser, heart stops, weighted net, broken neck or the like, rubber bullets, again possible death.

I really think the baton works best, but looks perhaps the worst. Pepper spray isn't always effective.


and a misplaced baton blow can still result in a crushed trachea.
 
gerryh
#25
Quote:

Richmond RCMP Sgt. Pierre Lemaitre, above, said the man was enraged, pounding on windows and throwing chairs and computer equipment, and refused to calm down.


What it comes down to, is that police considered the safety of the equipment(inanimate objects) more important than a mans life. Now why does that not surprise me?
 
Niflmir
#26
In all honesty I wouldn't care that much about tasers if they weren't prohibited weapons. They are the legal equivalent of shurikens in Canada, or morning stars which is just weird.

The most important figure is: (number of injuries caused)/(number of times used)

16 deaths since 2003 (is that right?) just doesn't tell the whole story.
 
Twila
#27
The news last night had a woman who had attempted to talk with the man and had him CALMED down. The man was from Poland and had been in the airport for 5hours with NO help from customs. This after a 2 hr train ride and a 11hr flight from Germany.

The RCMP did NOT try to talk to this man or calm him down or even attempt communications with him. Evening service at the airport for translation is poor and this man who was here to meet his sponsor (moving toCanada he was) had poor english.

In the end it looks like the RCMP responded out of fear and past incidences rather then taking this incident on it's own. Poor judgement and now a man is dead.

Seems the taser was not needed if a unprofessional woman is able to communicate and calm him down without getting hurt.
 
Niflmir
#28
If I had my way there wouldn't be a customs. I want to live in a world without borders.
 
IdRatherBeSkiing
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

It should be for immigration officials, but not every language obviously. As I said earlier, he was delayed in getting to Vancouver in the first place, and the shifts at midnight are not nearly as well staffed as the day shifts. I can understand his frustration. Nearly 24 hours in transit, and in the end no way to effectively communicate.

We've all had commuting issues. We have all been delayed on and off planes at airports. After all, we have all flown Air Canada right? When you fly you have to be able to roll with the punches. Ultimatly, that is no excuse for going breserk in an airport.
 
gerryh
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiingView Post

We've all had commuting issues. We have all been delayed on and off planes at airports. After all, we have all flown Air Canada right? When you fly you have to be able to roll with the punches. Ultimatly, that is no excuse for going breserk in an airport.

WHich is no excuse for killing a man.
 

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