Man dies after Taser shock by police at Vancouver airport


MikeyDB
#151
Colpy

And why given the incident at the Vancouver Airport might we expect anything else?

There's an ad currently running on TV for some truck manufacturerer that suggests that the true measure of a man is how he handles power.....

While not a fan of TV advertising the question is germane. If we're accepting applications from testosterone and adrenaline junkies hoping to join the RCMP to fulfill their fantasy of power and control....we have a serious problem!

Or is it simply the nature of technology that once the "easy" and "expedient" are embraced as "soluitons" common sense is given the day off.....?
 
Colpy
#152
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDBView Post

Colpy

And why given the incident at the Vancouver Airport might we expect anything else?

There's an ad currently running on TV for some truck manufacturerer that suggests that the true measure of a man is how he handles power.....

While not a fan of TV advertising the question is germane. If we're accepting applications from testosterone and adrenaline junkies hoping to join the RCMP to fulfill their fantasy of power and control....we have a serious problem!

Or is it simply the nature of technology that once the "easy" and "expedient" are embraced as "soluitons" common sense is given the day off.....?

Mikey, you're being surprizingly clear headed and sensible today......

 
Unforgiven
#153
I would just like to offer up my services to disarm any delirious 80+ year olds in hospital beds welding pocket knives. No electrical or firearms will be used and that's my iron clad guarantee to my customers!

Also as part of my Golden Years service, Yours will be this fancy tree shaped room freshener for those Nah Tze Emm Pee cleanups. Mmmm pine fresh!

Reasonable prices and fast friendly service.
 
tracy
#154
If people think sick old men are easy to subdue, they haven't worked in a hospital before. My aunt had her jaw broken by a nice old man who asked her to tie his shoelaces while sitting in his wheelchair. I've seen 5 people struggling to subdue a patient who is delirious. It's one of the main reasons nurses have such a high workplace injury rate. The units with the highest rate of violence against staff aren't emergency rooms, they are geriatric units with men like him.

I'm sure the police could have risked injury and subdued him without the taser, but I don't see why that would be such a good thing. Then he'd be on tv showing the bruises on his wrists or whatever other injury he suffered. Being tased isn't nice, but it isn't the end of the world either. Plus, no offense, but if you know you become delirious due to oxygen deprivation why on earth do you keep a knife?
 
Lester
#155
- One would expect only criminals to do something like that,The RCMP have turned into a bunch of cowards, 20 years ago they would have held him down and taken it away- now their just a bunch of *****s who are too lazy to get their hands dirty.
 
gerryh
#156
Quote: Originally Posted by tracyView Post

Being tased isn't nice, but it isn't the end of the world either.


Tell that to the people that have died after being tasered and the families they left behind.
 
Praxius
#157
Agreed.....Although my mother is also a nurse in a retirement home for mentally disabled people and her risks can sometimes be high depending on the situation, these situations can be dealt with very easily.... and RCMP officers tasering people, yet again becuase they don't have the time or the patience isn't acceptable.

And if a middle aged guy from Poland can die from the involvement of the taser twice, I'm sure the chances of this 80+ year old man on oxygen and had heart surgery and shot three times wasn't too far behind.

Tough ol fart.
 
darkbeaver
#158
Arsey MP, nuggler's got it right, they're just trained for six months and all of them have seen way to much TV. Phuckin heros.
 
Socrates the Greek
#159
Quote: Originally Posted by PraxiusView Post

Agreed.....Although my mother is also a nurse in a retirement home for mentally disabled people and her risks can sometimes be high depending on the situation, these situations can be dealt with very easily.... and RCMP officers tasering people, yet again becuase they don't have the time or the patience isn't acceptable.

And if a middle aged guy from Poland can die from the involvement of the taser twice, I'm sure the chances of this 80+ year old man on oxygen and had heart surgery and shot three times wasn't too far behind.

Tough ol fart.


What else is new two big RCMP officers are not able to subdue an 81 year old man. F BULL SH!T. They just love to use the taser because their idiots in the Union said it is better for them, les threat for two big men in case the old man has a black belt in Karate.
F idiots.
 
Praxius
#160
Quote: Originally Posted by Socrates the GreekView Post

What else is new two big RCMP officers are not able to subdue an 81 year old man. F BULL SH!T. They just love to use the taser because their idiots in the Union said it is better for them, les threat for two big men in case the old man has a black belt in Karate.
F idiots.

Maybe all the RCMP officers used to be nerds in high school and got beaten up all the time by bullies for watching too much Star Trek and now they got their own Phasers to role play on us all with their nerdy fantasies.

 
Socrates the Greek
#161
Quote: Originally Posted by PraxiusView Post

Maybe all the RCMP officers used to be nerds in high school and got beaten up all the time by bullies for watching too much Star Trek and now they got their own Phasers to role play on us all with their nerdy fantasies.


One thing for sure is the RCMP is shifting from PEACE BROKERS TO KILLING BROKERS. I DONíT CARE WHICH WAY THEY PUT THEIR SPIN ON, the fact remains that hearing an officer yesterday comment on the old man in the hospital he made mention that on a case like this we would not use pepper spray because we would contaminate the hospital. What a stupid statement to make. A young strong officer having no people skills but instead he has a taser. Is that shifting to robots or what?
 
Sal
#162
Quote: Originally Posted by Socrates the GreekView Post

One thing for sure is the RCMP is shifting from PEACE BROKERS TO KILLING BROKERS. I DON’T CARE WHICH WAY THEY PUT THEIR SPIN ON, the fact remains that hearing an officer yesterday comment on the old man in the hospital he made mention that on a case like this we would not use pepper spray because we would contaminate the hospital. What a stupid statement to make. A young strong officer having no people skills but instead he has a taser. Is that shifting to robots or what?

Yeah, it was the pepper spray comment that sealed the deal for me too.

The old guy is having trouble breathing and the only reason they didn't use pepper spray was because they "would have contaminated the hospital"? He CAN'T BREATHE and they considered pepper spray. That is outlandish.

He was lucky they were too stupid to use pepper spray, it likely would have killed him. Idiots.
 
Socrates the Greek
#163
Quote: Originally Posted by SalView Post

Yeah, it was the pepper spray comment that sealed the deal for me too.

The old guy is having trouble breathing and the only reason they didn't use pepper spray was because they "would have contaminated the hospital"? He CAN'T BREATHE and they considered pepper spray. That is outlandish.

He was lucky they were too stupid to use pepper spray, it likely would have killed him. Idiots.

Sal;
we look at the unfortunate polish man Mr. Robert Dziekanski who died at the Vancouver air port after 5 strong men taking down a man who desperately needed some one to help him, being that he had been forgotten by Immigrations customs clearance people and instead 5 STRONG MAN CAME TO REMOVE HIM BECAUSE HE WAS UPSET AND JUSTIFIABLY SO. HE WAS LOOKING FOR HELP BUT IN STEAD HE GOT THE TASER TREATMENT BY A MISERABLY FAILED PEACE BROKERING AGENCY THE RCMP.
True humanity would cry foul looking at incidents such us the 82 year old man tasered or pepper sprayed instead of aproched with a good set of peoples skills or Mr. Robert Dziekanski tasered instead of approached with a good quality people skills while instead lethal unnecessary force was used. There IS a lot of repair needed with in the frame work of the highest level of peace brokering in Canada by the RCMP.
 
tracy
#164
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Tell that to the people that have died after being tasered and the families they left behind.

Dramatic much? This guy wasn't killed. He has a bruise. That's a pretty small price to pay for pulling a knife on people.
 
tracy
#165
Quote: Originally Posted by PraxiusView Post

Agreed.....Although my mother is also a nurse in a retirement home for mentally disabled people and her risks can sometimes be high depending on the situation, these situations can be dealt with very easily.....

Easily? You'd want your mom to try to subdue someone with a knife? As far as I'm concerned the nursing staff is not security. I call security (someone with a weapon is code silver where I work and you hear it over the PA system occasionally). Only once have I gotten physical with a patient/visitor and I didn't have much of a choice (it ended with her on the floor bleeding with a handful of another nurse's hair she ripped out). I wonder why RIH's security department chose to involve the police instead of handling it themselves?
 
gerryh
#166
Quote: Originally Posted by tracyView Post

Dramatic much? This guy wasn't killed. He has a bruise. That's a pretty small price to pay for pulling a knife on people.


Luckily.... so........ you see no problem with 3 cops tasering an 82 year old man on oxygen laying in a hospital bed with a small pocket knife as a weapon.
 
tracy
#167
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Luckily.... so........ you see no problem with 3 cops tasering an 82 year old man on oxygen laying in a hospital bed with a small pocket knife as a weapon.

If he was just laying in a bed placidly, I doubt they would have tasered him. If he was asked to give up a knife to a cop, he's supposed to do it. If he's too delirious to be able to recognize that, then he's too delirious to be safe and his memory of events has to be called into question. I love when reporters ignore the obvious contradictions (I was delirious... I remember everything perfectly though ) .

Frankly, I find hospital stories like this frustrating. If he was truly just laying there with his knife in his hands and not threatenning anyone, the policy should be to remove anyone else from the room (cause there are rarely private rooms at that hospital) and isolate him until security could deal with him. Why were the police even called? I did rotations at that hospital and think it's a sh*t hole, but they have pretty clear policies on what to do with aggressive patients. If his account is accurate, he has grounds for a lawsuit. I doubt most of the people who were there would agree with it though, but of course they can't talk because of patient confidentiality.
 
tracy
#168
I think it's also important to mention that officers could have severely harmed this man if they struggled with him for long. Take someone who is already oxygen deprived with a cardiac history and struggle with them for a while and see what happens.

This story ended with some minor bruises on one person. No deaths, no serious injuries. Not a terribly bad ending in my book.
 
Praxius
#169
Quote: Originally Posted by tracyView Post

Easily? You'd want your mom to try to subdue someone with a knife?

*Sigh* no... easily would be to keep your distance and keep talking to the guy until he calms the hell down.... for starters. There have been cases where she has just talked to the guy for a couple of minutes and then diverted the conversation to something else as a distraction and then the patient calmed down.

This is not always the case, but it's a good start.

Quote:

As far as I'm concerned the nursing staff is not security. I call security (someone with a weapon is code silver where I work and you hear it over the PA system occasionally). Only once have I gotten physical with a patient/visitor and I didn't have much of a choice (it ended with her on the floor bleeding with a handful of another nurse's hair she ripped out). I wonder why RIH's security department chose to involve the police instead of handling it themselves?

Yeah I think you misunderstood. I was not implying my mom to get midevil on the guy.
 
tracy
#170
Quote: Originally Posted by PraxiusView Post

*Sigh* no... easily would be to keep your distance and keep talking to the guy until he calms the hell down.... for starters. There have been cases where she has just talked to the guy for a couple of minutes and then diverted the conversation to something else as a distraction and then the patient calmed down.

This is not always the case, but it's a good start.
.

It can be, but it also depends on the patient's condition. If he was delirious because he was so lacking in oxygen, then waiting longer would seem to just excacerbate that.

Fortunately retirement home residents usually don't have that issue to deal with. I've seen nurses use the distraction method before. We had a Korean lady on one of my geriatric rotation who thought she had a baby (it was just a doll). She was completely demented, often violent and didn't speak a word of English. The best solution was for someone to get the doll, waive it at her and run! She would lose interest in whoever she was trying to hit or pinch and run after her baby. Once she got the baby back she was so focused on it (she even breastfed it sometimes) that she lost all interest in the staff. She pinched me so hard on my arm once I almost cried. It left a nice bruise. That definitely wasn't my favorite rotation! Bless people like your mother!!!
 
Sal
#171
Quote: Originally Posted by Socrates the GreekView Post

Sal;
we look at the unfortunate polish man Mr. Robert Dziekanski who died at the Vancouver air port after 5 strong men taking down a man who desperately needed some one to help him, being that he had been forgotten by Immigrations customs clearance people and instead 5 STRONG MAN CAME TO REMOVE HIM BECAUSE HE WAS UPSET AND JUSTIFIABLY SO. HE WAS LOOKING FOR HELP BUT IN STEAD HE GOT THE TASER TREATMENT BY A MISERABLY FAILED PEACE BROKERING AGENCY THE RCMP.


That was truly an unfortunate disaster.
Quote:

True humanity would cry foul looking at incidents such us the 82 year old man tasered or pepper sprayed instead of aproched with a good set of peoples skills or Mr. Robert Dziekanski tasered instead of approached with a good quality people skills while instead lethal unnecessary force was used. There IS a lot of repair needed with in the frame work of the highest level of peace brokering in Canada by the RCMP.

Very true. The unfortunate part of this is that our law enforcement deal daily with individuals who are less than savory. They are not social workers and as such sometimes do not handle situations in a manner which results in the best outcome possible.

Unfortunately, it's the nature of the beast.


 
MikeyDB
#172
Tracy

Two smallish folk can subdue a far larger person quickly and effectively by denying the aggressor light and freedom of movement. A simple thing like a blanket or a small mattress controlled by two people with freedom of movement....walking up either side of the prone individual...and applying downward pressure on top of the aggressor will effectively neutralize this kind of threat. I've used it and watched it used time and time again.

It might not be pleasant to consider, but these officers like the guards at the airport were little more than bullies and if their training is so poor we need to understand why.
 
Walter
#173
Bloody seniors.
 
MikeyDB
#174
Walter

Yeah! All seniors should be equipped with a "clapper"....on their heart regulators....

One clap and the device gets turned-off....

Instant control!
 
karrie
#175
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDBView Post

Tracy

Two smallish folk can subdue a far larger person quickly and effectively by denying the aggressor light and freedom of movement. A simple thing like a blanket or a small mattress controlled by two people with freedom of movement....walking up either side of the prone individual...and applying downward pressure on top of the aggressor will effectively neutralize this kind of threat. I've used it and watched it used time and time again.

It might not be pleasant to consider, but these officers like the guards at the airport were little more than bullies and if their training is so poor we need to understand why.

That sounds almost as risky to me as the option of tazering. You risk tearing out IV's, breathing tubes, feeding tubes in some cases, and you risk them moving that knife into an awkward position right before you press down on them with the mattress. but I guess if the headline reads 'senior bleeds to death when nurses impale him on his own knife', it doesn't paint the RCMP in such a bad light.
 
tracy
#176
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

That sounds almost as risky to me as the option of tazering. You risk tearing out IV's, breathing tubes, feeding tubes in some cases, and you risk them moving that knife into an awkward position right before you press down on them with the mattress. but I guess if the headline reads 'senior bleeds to death when nurses impale him on his own knife', it doesn't paint the RCMP in such a bad light.

Well, it's not going to be me doing it I guarantee you.

I think police or security may have been able to do the blanket thing, but they may not have. I mean, do you have any idea how cramped those rooms are? Depending on the unit, he may have been in a four person room. I've had trouble getting around beds, chairs, etc. just to fill water glasses. I'm not going to bet my life on the idea that I could quickly get to someone and get a knife out of their hands. But, even if they could have done that, I just don't think you should get to bitch about a little bruise or two after you pulled a weapon on a nurse and refused to give it up to the cops. That's a pretty minor consequence to some majorly bad behavior.
 
MikeyDB
#177
Well Tracy and Karrie I'm tickled to death that you've never been in the position to have to make these kinds of decisions. I have. I'm also very pleased that with any luck the decision-making process when it comes to protecting your loved ones and people you care about will be as simple as the application of unnecessary force that may leave them worse-off than they were to begin with.

Buy yourselves a round of Pollyana cocktails and celebrate your do-nothing everything will be fine attitudes.

The fact is that it's easy for you to wail and thrash your arms around when you hear about somehing like this but what will be your response when it happens to you? You folk operate on the NYMBY principle and the next time an individual's safety is compromised by a cop or someone else responding inappropriately to the situation will you be as ready to celebrate your willing denial?

Where is the balance for you people? Prison guards aren't dealing with the "cream-of-the-crop" of society so should we simply accept that any response short of shooting these people is acceptable? And when and where is the determination made that non-lethal force is demanded in this or that situation?

Oh yeah I forgot....everything will be just fine......
 
tracy
#178
With all due respect Mikey, you know very little about me to assume you know what sort of situations I've found myself in over the years. Did it ever occur to you that my life experiences may have led me to have a less than tolerant view of a man pulling a knife on someone? Maybe for reasons I wouldn't discuss with you, I tend to identify more with the person on the receiving end of a threat than the one doing the threatenning. And no, I wouldn't wail if this happened to me, because it wouldn't happen to me. I don't pull knives on people. If I ever do and a cop tasers me... hey, my fault. I'd consider myself lucky to get out of the situation completely healthy.
 
L Gilbert
#179
Seems to me that keeping of the peace used to be an honorable profession and for the most part honorable people used to seek employment in the field. What I have been hearng over the past decade is a degredation of this virtue and that the population of the "schoolyard bully" type of person in the field is growing.
Or is it just that the newsmedia prefers to stress the bad instances and keep hush on the instances of the good that the police do?
Or is it both?
 
tracy
#180
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

Or is it just that the newsmedia prefers to stress the bad instances and keep hush on the instances of the good that the police do?

I suspect this is true of many professions. My brother saved a stabbing victim by choosing to carry him to his cruiser and drive him to the hospital rather than wait for the ambulance (as is proper procedure). No one not directly involved with that heard a thing about it I'm sure. I didn't even know until I was visiting and the man accosted us in the street, thanking my brother and telling me what happened. My brother's pretty quiet and seemed embarassed by the attention. He's been in the RCMP for about 5 years now without any complaints. He's the last person who could be described as a schoolyard bully. I'm the one who punched a kid at school that was calling him names (I was in kindergarten at the time, he was in the second grade). He just ignored it. He's always been that way. I think he needs to stand up for himself more in general and with his wife in particular, but that's another story. My dad was a cop for over 30 years and never shot or tased anybody either.

I've met a lot of jerk cops (I was surrounded by mounties until I left home), but I don't think they have a higher porportion of jerks than any other profession. I've met WAY more jerk doctors and nurses. Even then, I think the good hugely outweigh the bad, but no one wants to report on that. I currently work in what I would consider to be an excellent hospital. I love it and plan to stay there as long as they'll have me. It's the first place I've worked in a long time that is truly focused on good patient care above all other considerations. It's not about egos, administrative bs, money, etc. Our families are overwhelmingly pleased with the care they receive. We routinely get them coming back to drop off cards or sweets to say thank you. But, we were on the local news a lot because John Ritter died there. That's all people hear about. I've had people ask me where I work and it's the first thing that comes out of their mouths ("oh, where john ritter died?").
 

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