Israel...

earth_as_one
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#841
So far its unclear how Obama is going to proceed regarding violence in Israel and the Occupied Territories. He has appointed a mediator with a good track of resolving disputes.

During the election campaign he stated support for a two state solution, which helped him win support from the powerful Jewish lobby. I suspect he will not say much until his mediator has talked to everyone, including Hamas.

I expect we won't know which direction plans to take regarding peace in this area for some time. I hope he lets his conscience be his guide.
 
dancing-loon
Avatar
#842
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

So far its unclear how Obama is going to proceed regarding violence in Israel and the Occupied Territories. He has appointed a mediator with a good track of resolving disputes.

During the election campaign he stated support for a two state solution, which helped him win support from the powerful Jewish lobby.

That is precisely what puzzles me, when reading David Frums critique of Obama's inaugural speech. (see my recent new thread on this}
 
einmensch
Avatar
#843
There are surely millions of us, invisible to each other, enraged and powerless as we watch the massacre of Gaza and listen to our media describe it as a "retaliation against terrorism", "Israel’s right to defend itself". We have reached a point where answering the Zionist arguments is both useless and unworthy of humanity. So long as it is recognized that the shells landing on Ashkelon are likely to have been fired by descendants of the inhabitants of that region who were driven out by the Zionists in 1948, talk of peace is a smoke screen for continued Israeli assault on the survivors of that great injustice.

Mix Mash
Airstrike destroys prominent Gaza school
The Associated PressPublished: January 4, 2009
GAZA: An Israeli airstrike flattened one of Gaza's best private educational institutions, the American International School, which had been attacked a year ago by Islamic militants.
The Israeli Army said the campus on a northern Gaza hilltop overlooking the Mediterranean Sea had been used as a launching base for rockets and was a legitimate target.
Most of the school's buildings, which offered American-style curriculum in English for kindergarten through 12th grade, were destroyed by the strikes, which also killed the night watchman.
"This is the most distinguished and advanced school in Gaza, if not in Gaza and the West Bank," said Iyad Saraj, chairman of the school's board of trustees. "I cannot swear there was no rocket fired, but if there was, you don't destroy a whole school." He added: "This is the destruction of civilization."
The school was founded in 2000 to provide "progressive education," the school's Web site says. It has no connection to the U.S. government. Saraj said the school had 250 students and many of its graduates went on to U.S. universities. "They are very good, highly educated open-minded students who can really be future leaders of Palestine," he said.
------http://www.internationalschoolsreview.com/nonmembers/gaza-school.htm
The above has a comment section from people who worked at the school.
The American International School, after surviving 8 years in war torn Gaza, has now been erased from the map after falling prey to the numerous air strikes from the Israeli Air Force. And while the world is bombarded with images of rocket damage to Israeli schools—one hole in one wall shown from multiple angles—there doesn’t seem to be a single image of the once impressive school that was obviously destroyed by multiple air strikes from a mighty Israeli war machine. Nor does there seem to be any coverage relating to the death of the night watchman, Abu Gleg—an elderly Bedouin, father of 30, who had generously donated the land for the school to build upon.
The one sided nature of the military conflict has never been more obvious (over 400 Palestinian fatalities vs. 4 Israeli fatalities) and this incident with AISG seems to highlight the one sided nature of the media coverage of the conflict as well.
----A new word emerged from the carnage in Gaza this week: "scholasticide" – the systematic destruction by Israeli forces of centres of education dear to Palestinian society, as the ministry of education was bombed, the infrastructure of teaching destroyed, and schools across the Gaza strip targeted for attack by the air, sea and ground offensives.

"Learn, baby, learn" was a slogan of the black rights movement in America's ghettoes a generation ago, but it also epitomises the idea of education as the central pillar of Palestinian identity – a traditional premium on schooling steeled by occupation, and something the Israelis "cannot abide… and seek to destroy", according to Dr Karma Nabulsi, who teaches politics at St Edmund Hall, Oxford. "We knew before, and see more clearly now than ever, that Israel is seeking to annihilate an educated Palestine," she says.
A total of 71 Palestinians were killed Tuesday — with just two confirmed as militants, health officials in Gaza said.
Catholic humanitarian agency Caritas is working under desperate and dangerous circumstances in Gaza.
The crisis in Gaza has been brought home very directly to Caritas following the destruction of a Caritas Jerusalem medical clinic last Friday during an Israeli aerial bombardment. The clinic, in the Al Maghazi district of Central Gaza, was completely destroyed in the bombing that also razed four
A new supply of Bibles for Durkha Durkha ?

A Music School Silenced in Gaza
By NADIA HIJAB
There was a music school in Gaza. It was just six months old. The 31 children aged seven to 11 could choose one of five instruments, including the guitar, oud (lute), and piano. Most of the 19 girls gravitated to the guitar and piano while many of the 12 boys showed a preference for the oud.
The school worked out of rented premises in the Palestinian Red Crescent Society building just across the street from the Preventive Security Forces compound in Gaza City. The compound was targeted in the first wave of Israeli bombardments on December 27, and twice more the next day. The five-story building was vaporized; a flat gravel surface is all that remains.

And all the Palestinian children ,well, a couple of hundred fewer all sang happy songs like We love you Israel, OH YES we do oo, as the swept the glass and moved the empty desks.
The world is begining to understand. If Obama can talk to Israel he can certainly talk to Hamas. Oh ja--Abbas, like a good boy is sitting on the West Bank as he was told to do.
 
einmensch
#844
Earth--demographics indicate that by 2020there will be more Israeli Arabs than Israeli Jews?
 
gopher
No Party Affiliation
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#845

YouTube - Open Letter to Israeli Soldiers Jews call on Israeli soldiers to stop War Crimes




A call for Zionist troops to stop their war crimes.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
Avatar
#846
-- - by Prof. Edward S. Herman - 2009-01-23


A senseable preview of WWIII.
 
MHz
#847
That sounds so dry, can't it be something like WWeyeyeye, whoops you already said that.
If you kill 1/2 as many as would die in such a war before the start of the war then the war might be called off. Relax the laws on treason and the numbers could be gathered rather quickly.
 
dancing-loon
Avatar
#848
Found on my wanderings...

Pope move ignites Holocaust row
Pope Benedict in Rome on 21/1/09


The Pope has lifted the excommunication from the Roman Catholic Church of four bishops appointed by a breakaway archbishop more than 20 years ago.

One of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre's appointees, Briton Richard Williamson, outraged Jews by saying the Nazi gas chambers did not exist.

Two of the other three appointees are French while the fourth is Argentinean.

Israel's envoy to the Vatican said the papal decision would "cast a shadow on relations with Jews".

"We have no intention of interfering in the internal workings of the Catholic Church, however, the eagerness to bring a Holocaust denier back into the Church will cast a shadow on relations between Jews and the Catholic Church," Mordechai Lewy told Reuters news agency.

--

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Jerusalem Post excerpt:

Richard Williamson, a British bishop, was shown in a Swedish state TV interview this week saying that historical evidence "is hugely against 6 million Jews having been deliberately gassed."
Williamson has said that only 200,000-300,000 Jews died during World War II and that gas chambers were a fiction.


The American Jewish Committee's director of Interreligious Affairs, Rabbi David Rosen, said that "while the Vatican's reconciliation with the SSPX [Society of Saint Pius X] is an internal matter of the Catholic Church, the embrace of an open Holocaust denier is shameful, a serious blow for Jewish-Vatican relations, and a slap in the face for the historic efforts of Pope John Paul II, who following his predecessors, made such remarkable efforts to eradicate and combat anti-Semitism.
"I am sure that the lifting of the excommunication was not an affirmation by the Church of Holocaust denial. However, the failure to take into consideration his outrageous opinions is deplorable. Williamson should not have been included in this embrace," Rosen said.
--

---------------------------
I suppose he could go to jail for that statement. The law is the law, even a Bishop should not be above it.
 
Zzarchov
Avatar
#849
If he is in Germany, then yes, he could go to jail.

I actually applaud the decision. The business of the church isn't historical record, its the christian faith and honestly, that isn't their business. I don't agree with holocaust denial as it always seems to be based upon a dislike of Jews rather than an interest in history (notice thats always the only genocide that ever gets denied by the nutballs), but I don't think that say McDonalds should fire someone for being a holocaust denial as their job is to make "food" not set historical record.
 
earth_as_one
Avatar
#850
Historians should be able to research and post their findings freely without political or legal interference. If their findings pass peer review then it can be published.

For example, Israel's New Historians researching declassified Israeli military archives discovered that much of what people believed about Israel's foundation was actually based on Israeli propaganda not facts or evidence.

I'm not saying the same is true about what we believe or is commonly known about the Holocaust, just that people should be able to do empirical research in this area and publish their findings based on the evidence without fear of prosecution, just like they can on other historical events.
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
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#851
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

Historians should be able to research and post their findings freely without political or legal interference. If their findings pass peer review then it can be published.

For example, Israel's New Historians researching declassified Israeli military archives discovered that much of what people believed about Israel's foundation was actually based on Israeli propaganda not facts or evidence.

I'm not saying the same is true about what we believe or is commonly known about the Holocaust, just that people should be able to do empirical research in this area and publish their findings based on the evidence without fear of prosecution, just like they can on other historical events.

Infortunately, historians are like everyone else, they have their own perspectives and it is either consciously or subconsciously woven into their writings. I might add that the same thing applies to the critics of these historians.
 
einmensch
Avatar
#852
Quote: Originally Posted by ZzarchovView Post

If he is in Germany, then yes, he could go to jail.

I actually applaud the decision. The business of the church isn't historical record, its the christian faith and honestly, that isn't their business. I don't agree with holocaust denial as it always seems to be based upon a dislike of Jews rather than an interest in history (notice thats always the only genocide that ever gets denied by the nutballs), but I don't think that say McDonalds should fire someone for being a holocaust denial as their job is to make "food" not set historical record.


Perhaps the Holocaust is the only one denied because it is the only lie. Honestly who better to search and reveal the truth than a man of God. It is nice of you to spare the McDonalds employee's job especially since you ask for prison terms for others. There are 150+million Catholics. This man is a Bishop and what are you? A man that wallows in his own opinion or a Zionist regurgatator. Reply to his resoning. Point out the flaws. You can't so you circuously slander him. I have noted that many Chief Rabbis act in the same manner as this Holy Bishop seekink truth. Have you suggested that they should concern themselves with Judaic Faith only, honestly.
 
einmensch
Avatar
#853
Well Gilbert --either the door is air tight or it is not
--either the chimneys are proper or not
--either you can touch that corpse or not
--either the gas chamber parts are there or they all disappeared

pretty straight forward
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
Avatar
#854
Quote: Originally Posted by einmenschView Post

Well Gilbert --either the door is air tight or it is not
--either the chimneys are proper or not
--either you can touch that corpse or not
--either the gas chamber parts are there or they all disappeared

pretty straight forward

?? Doors are open or closed. Lights or on or off. Toilet seats are up or down. I agree, pretty straight forward. What does that have to do with the topic, though?
 
einmensch
Avatar
#855
Your point Gilbert was that Historians interpret--My point is that either the gas chamber doors are air tight or they are not--no interpretation
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#856
So? You are saying Israelis should be gassed?
 
dancing-loon
Avatar
#857
Quote: Originally Posted by ZzarchovView Post

If he is in Germany, then yes, he could go to jail.

I actually applaud the decision. The business of the church isn't historical record, its the christian faith and honestly, that isn't their business. I don't agree with holocaust denial as it always seems to be based upon a dislike of Jews rather than an interest in history (notice thats always the only genocide that ever gets denied by the nutballs), but I don't think that say McDonalds should fire someone for being a holocaust denial as their job is to make "food" not set historical record.

Hi, Zzarchov;
I see that eao has already given a good answer to your concerns. I, too, believe it is wrong to mussle our historians who try to get to the facts and wish to state their findings. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking Jews or any other kind of people.
As a German-born I really would like to know the truth about these horrible accusations, as it is very hard to believe the full-scale horror being presented to me as the truth. And if there are two different versions, then I would like to hear and discuss them both without fear of having to go to jail.
 
Zzarchov
Avatar
#858
Quote: Originally Posted by dancing-loonView Post

Hi, Zzarchov;
I see that eao has already given a good answer to your concerns. I, too, believe it is wrong to mussle our historians who try to get to the facts and wish to state their findings. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking Jews or any other kind of people.
As a German-born I really would like to know the truth about these horrible accusations, as it is very hard to believe the full-scale horror being presented to me as the truth. And if there are two different versions, then I would like to hear and discuss them both without fear of having to go to jail.


I agree you should be able to hear both. I still think the facts (and they are established facts) are what should be taught in school.

While the truth can be hard to swallow, it is still the truth.

It is hard to swallow that blankets infected with deadly diseases were intentionally passed out to Natives to maim and kill innocent women and children on a civilization collapsing scale. Never the less it occurred.
 
Socrates the Greek
Avatar
#859
An ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently in the United Nations Assembly and made the world community smile.

A representative from Israel began: 'Before beginning my talk I want to tell you something about Moses.
When he struck the rock and it brought forth water, he thought, 'What a good opportunity to have a bath!'
He removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock and entered the water.
When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished.
A Palestinian had stolen them.'
The Palestinian representative jumped up furiously and shouted, 'What are you talking about? The Palestinians weren't there then.'
The Israeli representative smiled and said, 'And now that we have made that clear, I will begin my speech.


 
Socrates the Greek
#860
Pal V Isr.jpg..............................
 
einmensch
Avatar
#861
So funny soc--really shows biassss

How many lies need to be exposed before all needs to be questioned?
 
einmensch
Avatar
#862
Quote: Originally Posted by ZzarchovView Post

If he is in Germany, then yes, he could go to jail.

I actually applaud the decision. The business of the church isn't historical record, its the Christian faith and honestly, that isn't their business. I don't agree with holocaust denial as it always seems to be based upon a dislike of Jews rather than an interest in history (notice thats always the only genocide that ever gets denied by the nut balls), but I don't think that say McDonald's should fire someone for being a holocaust denial as their job is to make "food" not set historical record.

Nut balls? Zz You mean the same nut balls that proved all those other lies on which people were sentenced to death--not very knowledgeable are you ---just ignorantly arrogant --something the nut balls weren't-they just provided proof of lies, the lies you support.
Many of us I'm sure could not care less what you applaud!
You need to talk to the Rabbis and ask them to discard all the Historical Recording that they have done over the centuries or does your comment come in handy right now and is really meaningless?
A Bishop has no business stating truth. So if a Bishop believes this or that is true, he should ignore what he believes to be true and let that which he considers to be untrue prevail. Interesting Zz! Charges need to be laid against the Bishop. Let it go to court! Williamson and the Pharisees-? What a trial that would be.


The shoe throwing Bishop

Loon --The Germans, Austrians, etc need to demand forensic investigation-What are they are going to do >>>put 50 million Truth Seekers in Prison?
Zz - TRUTH is not anti or hateful--lies are-You have difficulty with that concept. Work on it, Eh?
 
Socrates the Greek
Avatar
#863
Quote: Originally Posted by einmenschView Post

So funny soc--really shows biassss

How many lies need to be exposed before all needs to be questioned?

Good day to you einmensch, by the way I like both people the Jews and the Arabs.
, history will never change, the hatred between the Jews and the Arabs isn’t anything new and it will remain ongoing for thousands of years to come. I hate to be a pessimist on the Israeli Palestinian issue, but looking at history as a guide or compass it points to the direction of intimidation and continues rock throwing at each other, unless both sides through some meaningful understanding they withdraw from killing and instead adopt living with each other in a tolerant as well meaningful way..
 
Risus
#864
Quote: Originally Posted by Socrates the GreekView Post

Good day to you einmensch, by the way I like both people the Jews and the Arabs.
, history will never change, the hatred between the Jews and the Arabs isn’t anything new and it will remain ongoing for thousands of years to come. I hate to be a pessimist on the Israeli Palestinian issue, but looking at history as a guide or compass it points to the direction of intimidation and continues rock throwing at each other, unless both sides through some meaningful understanding they withdraw from killing and instead adopt living with each other in a tolerant as well meaningful way..

I agree with you Soc. There will never be peace in the middle east...
 
Socrates the Greek
Avatar
#865
Quote: Originally Posted by RisusView Post

I agree with you Soc. There will never be peace in the middle east...

Risus good evening to you pal.....war is bad...........our human history has always been seen wearing the adversarial coat.
 
einmensch
Avatar
#866
Zz quote---It is hard to swallow that blankets infected with deadly diseases were intentionally passed out to Natives to maim and kill innocent women and children on a civilization collapsing scale. Never the less it occurred.

Didn't history say how kind we were to give them blankets to keep them warm??

 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
Avatar
#867
See ... I believe there is BS from both sides and I believe there is truth from both sides, The facts always lay somewhere between. The more hate is drawn into the mix, the more I tend to believe the hatemonger is hiding facts. You are doing your quest no service, Munchie....
 
earth_as_one
Avatar
#868


Anyone can draw a cartoon.




How about some evidence?

First what is a human shield? This video compares the Israeli and Palestinian definitions:

YouTube - In Gaza Conflict - Which Side Is Using Human Shields



These images, videos and news reports confirm that the IDF uses civilians as human shields in the direct sense:





Quote:

Israel bans use of human shields

The practice of using human shields is against international law

Israel's supreme court has banned the use of Palestinian human shields in arrest raids, saying the practice violates international law.

The court issued a temporary injunction against the practice in 2002 after a teenager was killed when troops made him negotiate with a wanted militant.

Human rights groups who brought the case say the Israeli army has repeatedly violated the temporary ban. The army cannot use civilians for its purposes, Israel's chief justice said. "You cannot exploit the civilian population for the army's military needs, and you cannot force them to collaborate with the army," Aharon Barak said....

--

Quote:

20 July 2006: Israeli Soldiers use civilians as Human Shields in Beit Hanun

B'Tselem's initial investigation indicates that, during an incursion by Israeli forces into Beit Hanun, in the northern Gaza Strip, on 17 July 2006, soldiers seized control of two buildings in the town and used residents as human shield.

After seizing control of the buildings, the soldiers held six residents, two of them minors, on the staircases of the two buildings, at the entrance to rooms in which the soldiers positioned themselves, for some twelve hours. During this time, there were intense exchanges of gunfire between the soldiers and armed Palestinians. The soldiers also demanded that one of the occupants walk in front of them during a search of all the apartments in one of the buildings, after which they released her....

--

More Recently in Gaza:

Quote:

Israel accused of using farmers as human shields

Jason Koutoukis in Gaza City
January 28, 2009

METHODS used by the Israel Defence Forces in their assault on the Gaza Strip have raised questions about whether Israeli military commanders authorised the use of Palestinians as human shields - a charge Israel has repeatedly made against Hamas.

Palestinian farmers from the neighbourhood of al-Atatra, about 10 kilometres north of the centre of Gaza City, said Israeli ground troops arrived in the area on January 7.

Samir Abu Dayer, 59, a farmer, said soldiers occupied several hectares of farmland behind his house. The fields that before the war produced olives, oranges and lemons are now a large stretch of pale yellow sand and broken irrigation pipes.

A sandpit roughly the size of an Olympic pool, with four walls about two metres high pushed together by bulldozers, dominates one field.

According to Mr Dayer, and several other residents whose houses bordered the field, Israeli troops quickly evacuated the surrounding houses. "They entered my house with a tank," Mr Dayer said. "I was told to come outside with my family."

Told to strip to his underwear, Mr Dayer said his hands were tied behind his back with white plastic cables, then he was moved into the sandpit area.

Mohammed Madhoun, 22, a media and public relations student at the Al-Aqsa University, whose home is across a laneway from Mr Dayer's home, said he and his parents were ordered to do the same.

"I was told to take off my clothes by one soldier, told to put them on again by another, and then take them off again. My hands were tied and I was taken into this area," Mr Madhoun said, pointing to the sandpit.

Ali Ajramy, 39, a tailor, thrust his hands forward to show the sores on his wrists caused by plastic cables

"I was taken into this prison," he said. "And I was told to be quiet and kneel down."

The three were among about 85 men who were moved into the sandpit area and gathered at the western end.

They said the Israeli troops then took position around perimeter of the sandpit area and began to engage with Palestinian resistance fighters. "We kept our heads down, we didn't move for two days," Mr Madhoun said. "There was lots of shooting over our heads but I don't know where it was coming from. We were given blankets and food."

Empty cans of Israeli rations litter the sandpit. The soldiers dug several foxholes.

"After two days we were taken to Beersheva, in Israel," Mr Dayer said. "We were there for five days and then brought back to Gaza and freed." He showed Herald a release form in Hebrew, given when they were returned to Gaza....

--

and so on...

The Israeli army claim Hamas used civilians in the indirect sense, by taking up positions near civilians. They don't claim that Hamas rounded up civilians and then used them directly as human shields.

Considering that Israel deliberately violated the ceasefire with Hamas on Nov. 4, 2008 and then used the resulting violence to justify turning an urban area into a war zone, Israel has to shoulder some of the responsibility for the inevitable civilian casualties.
Last edited by earth_as_one; Feb 9th, 2009 at 10:58 PM..
 
einmensch
Avatar
#869
It seems soc that Jews and Arabs got along quite well from the time of the Prophet Mohammed on until 1948. Jews were in government positions etc. After 1948 they became bitter enemies. And 60 years of hate education from crib to death will take time to reverse. Obama is president. 60 years ago he had to urinate in a black only toilet. Israel has been offered peace? Has it not?
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
Avatar
#870
For your entertainment, Munchies, at 0100 Eastern, TVO has a documentary of Aushwitz and the Nazis. Time to ping rocks at your TV?
 

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