Confused about Christ?

selfsame

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Do you agree with all of that or do you have some questions or doubts?

To the Quran, I have no doubt.

However, any ambiguous or obscure or complex reading is almost wrong or there is mis-interpretation.
Your words, MHz, are really obscure and complex, don't resent of this.

The books which you depend upon are themselves complex and obscure, like the Revelation of John and others.
Originally they were obscure, and the translation made them more mysterious, and the interpretation of them can't be taken as absolute.

So let us return to the essence of God's religion to which He sent all His prophets and apostle:
it is to let people know that God is One and that there will be the Next Life where
the wrongdoer and the idolater will be punished
and the believer in the monotheism and the exclusive devotion to God alone, and this believer should also do the righteous work for God's sake alone, so this righteous one will be happy in Paradise or Heaven.

So according to such belief, no one will blame man who believes in this 'exclusive devotion to God alone', and even the Christ and other prophets will be glad with this.
 

MHz

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To the Quran, I have no doubt.

However, any ambiguous or obscure or complex reading is almost wrong or there is mis-interpretation.
Your words, MHz, are really obscure and complex, don't resent of this.
As far as I can tell an 'infidel' in a person who does not believe in God at all rather than it including Jews and Christian even if their version has some small or large flaws in it.
I tend to cover broad areas rather than doing a small part in greater detail. Picking a single point out of the broad posts should clear it up but it might have to be one or two points at a time as some are rather involved.

The books which you depend upon are themselves complex and obscure, like the Revelation of John and others.
Originally they were obscure, and the translation made them more mysterious, and the interpretation of them can't be taken as absolute.
The Gospel of John and Revelation both reference John the Baptist and the Scribe of those two books was the beloved Disciple of John the Baptist. This would be one of the broad statements that would require more to be said before you should accept it as I read a lot before I came to that conclusion.

So let us return to the essence of God's religion to which He sent all His prophets and apostle:
it is to let people know that God is One and that there will be the Next Life where
the wrongdoer and the idolater will be punished
and the believer in the monotheism and the exclusive devotion to God alone, and this believer should also do the righteous work for God's sake alone, so this righteous one will be happy in Paradise or Heaven.
The wrongdoers are punished before the new one starts so everybody starts that era off with a clean slate, the perfected earth is also a sinless and death-free place for as long as it exists. Should it end the people would follow where the holy angels went when they ascended to their new heaven.

So according to such belief, no one will blame man who believes in this 'exclusive devotion to God alone', and even the Christ and other prophets will be glad with this.
By the time the Great White Throne event is a past reality there will be proof enough that blind faith is not what binds people to God.
 

Motar

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What you have to do with real christians is not apparent to me since you have idolized the alleged meaty Jesus you have actually created and worship a false idol, the meat/material resurrected Lord of this World.

By your estimation, DB, Christians who point to the Lord Jesus Christ are idolatrous meat-worshippers ...

"The summits of secondary natures are most proximate to the bases of superior orders." This means plainly enough that if the two natures in man, animal and infant divine, are brought into juxtaposition in the same human organism, the point of contact between the two would normally be where the top or head of the lower self touches the feet or heel of the upper man. The picture is symbolical, to be sure. Atlas holding up the heavens on his shoulders is another portrayal of it. If a higher and a lower nature in man are in conflict, the abrasion, the friction,

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the reciprocal "bruising" must be at the point where the head of the lower touches the heel of the higher. And the Egyptian scripts state that the aeonial battle of Armageddon is fought on this dividing line between the beast and the god in man. The more we permit the Christly power in us to rule, the more completely are the six elemental energies, blind and unconscious, brought into the service of their Lord, the seventh. They are figuratively trampled under his feet. This is the meaning of the Christ’s power to tread on serpents and scorpions, the inferior six powers being typed as the serpent.

New Lectures on the Ancient Wisdom--No 7.

... but Gnostics who venerate A. B. Kuhn by way of consistent citation are not?
 

AnnaG

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Funny how the proponents of the aggressive religions quote their respective holy books as if those were definitive proof of anything. They are not. If they were proof of gods and their accomplishments, then faith would be useless. Yet, they will almost turn themselves inside out trying to convince others of the accuracy of their books.
 

selfsame

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As far as I can tell an 'infidel' in a person who does not believe in God at all rather than it including Jews and Christian even if their version has some small or large flaws in it.
I tend to cover broad areas rather than doing a small part in greater detail. Picking a single point out of the broad posts should clear it up but it might have to be one or two points at a time as some are rather involved.

The prophets invited people to God's worship.
Jesus invited people to magnify God That sent him.
Mohammed invited people to glorify God alone.

I asked Abu Abdallah once: Was Budda a prophet or a messenger sent by God, then his teachings were distorted into idolatry?
He said: "I don't know; but if he invites to God alone, then he is a messenger; and if not, then he is not any messenger."

And if you study the Quran as a whole, you will find it invites people to God alone in every aya and every soora.

That is because those who do not pertain to God, will not invite to God alone, but to the association and enthusiasm.
 
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MHz

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Funny how the proponents of the aggressive religions quote their respective holy books as if those were definitive proof of anything. They are not. If they were proof of gods and their accomplishments, then faith would be useless. Yet, they will almost turn themselves inside out trying to convince others of the accuracy of their books.
Who's presenting it as anything but what the words actually mean when taken in the contest that is only established once the whole of said book is considered. I'm the guy saying you won't find any proof that God exists, that is how it works when He has his back turned on 'events'.

Eze:39:23:
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.
Eze:39:24:
According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them,
and hid my face from them.
 

selfsame

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Funny how the proponents of the aggressive religions quote their respective holy books as if those were definitive proof of anything. They are not. If they were proof of gods and their accomplishments, then faith would be useless. Yet, they will almost turn themselves inside out trying to convince others of the accuracy of their books.

The Quran includes a large number of the ayat or verses: which points to the glorification of God Most Gracious, and that man should contemplate the marvels of heaven and the earth and about himself in order to glorify God Almighty: the Creator.

Of course the Torah and the Gospel were also books revealed by God and included the marvelous Ten Commandments which are light to all humanity.

These commandments include:
God is One and He should exclusively be worshiped alone, and the idols discarded.
Obey the parents
Don't murder
Don't steal
Don't give false witness
Don't commit adultery.

The Disagreement of the

The Disagreement of the
 

AnnaG

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Who's presenting it as anything but what the words actually mean when taken in the contest that is only established once the whole of said book is considered. I'm the guy saying you won't find any proof that God exists, that is how it works when He has his back turned on 'events'.

Eze:39:23:
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.
Eze:39:24:
According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them,
and hid my face from them.
I did not suggest they were proofs of gods, I said they are not proofs of anything. I was being general. I can qualify things to be more specific if necessary.

The Quran includes a large number of the ayat or verses: which points to the glorification of God Most Gracious, and that man should contemplate the marvels of heaven and the earth and about himself in order to glorify God Almighty: the Creator.

Of course the Torah and the Gospel were also books revealed by God and included the marvelous Ten Commandments which are light to all humanity.

These commandments include:
God is One and He should exclusively be worshiped alone, and the idols discarded.
Obey the parents
Don't murder
Don't steal
Don't give false witness
Don't commit adultery.

The Disagreement of the

The Disagreement of the
So what? The Quran and the Bible are no more proofs of anything except possibly that humans like to write things in books.
 

selfsame

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So what? The Quran and the Bible are no more proofs of anything except possibly that humans like to write things in books.

So all of it to you is "so what"?
Give us any book from God that is better than the Torah, the Gospel and the Quran.
 

MHz

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The prophets invited people to God's worship.
Jesus invited people to magnify God That sent him.
Mohammed invited people to glorify God alone.

I asked Abu Abdallah once: Was Budda a prophet or a messenger sent by God, then his teachings were distorted into idolatry?
He said: "I don't know; but if he invited to God alone, then he is a messenger; and if not, then he is not any messenger."

And if you study the Quran as a whole, you will find it invites people to God alone in every aya and every soora.

That is because those who do not pertain to God, will not invite to God alone, but to the association and enthusiasm.
Which realm would this fall under?

I started of with the Lord's Prayer and just as I was about to start my plea I got a vision that I was outside my body and saw myself, from the back and above, in a kneeling position with a mist a very short distance in front of me that obscured any further view.
I heard myself say "Master, I don't feel so good." A large hand came out of the mist and completely enclosed my body. This happened in a 'twinkling of an eye', I found myself enclosed in this hand and it scared me to no end because I struggled to be free of it's grasp but found I could move not even one little bit. This feeling of being scared lasted only for the briefest of moments.
What replaced it was the most peaceful feeling I have ever experienced, bar none, and to be quite truthful have not experienced that 'level' of peace since.
As soon as this wave of peace (meaning I was in the company of someone who cared for me much more than my words will ever be able to describe) overcame me the hand loosed it 'grip' on me and it opened and I found myself sitting on this palm facing the ends of the fingers and seeing further forward than that.
In front was a hallway, very tall and the walls were black. The walls were not smooth, but rather, had many indentations and sharp corners at these indentations. There was a faint light at each of these 'corners' and that was the only way I could tell the walls were not smooth, the rest was pitch black, I could see neither floor nor ceiling, only these faint corners.
We were moving down this hallway at a leisurely rate and as I was feeling very 'relaxed' I was going to change my sitting position so I had my hands behind my back and then I could lean back and rest on them. As I was leaning back one hand seemed to miss the expected surface that would support it and I ended up rolling to one side. I looked back to see what had 'gone wrong' and I observed a great hole in the palm of this hand. I immediately burst into tears and said with alarm "You've been hurt!"
I heard not a word but my tears left me and I spent the next few moments crawling around the hand, much like I did on the school-ground equipment when I was a small child.
This hallway had corners in addition to the indentations in that it was not straight as we have halls. We came around one corner and off to the right I could see a faint glow of light some distance down this other smaller hallway.
I asked "What's down there?" A voice (rather deep but very 'soothing') answered "You're not ready for this, but I will show you."
Off we went down this other hallway going around gently curving corners and the light got brighter with each corner we passed. In very short order we came out on a dusty,earthen path and I could see a sky. This path was rather narrow and had grass growing on either edge.
On the grass to the left there were several rabbits hopping around, a few bounds then they would stop and nibble the grass, a few more bounds, another nibble. Our presence did not disturb them in the least.
Just behind the rabbits, only a few yards from the path, was what I would best describe would be a three-wire barbed fence, not in the best of repair as the wire sagged a bit between the posts and none of the posts stood up properly but were tilted a bit at various angles.
A bit of distance from this was another fence made of planking, much like you would find around any farm that kept horses or cows, and behind were some farm buildings, house and small barn made of the same wood as the plank fence.
All the wood was very weathered but the condition of the buildings and fence would not warrant paint as this would be a waste because of their condition.
As I looked over at this scene I noticed several dogs in the yard. There was much running and yelping and much dust from all this activity. I could not determine if this activity was caused by our presence or not and if, in fact, the dogs were playing or it was a somewhat more serious matter they were involved in. The circles they made were small and done in quick fashion so in the short time I observed them they completed many circles.
The path we were on also had the gentle twists and turns like the hallways we had just came from did. We continued down this dusty path and came around another corner and came to a stop. The path ended here and was replaced by a large open space covered in lush grass, a short distance from us I could see gently rolling hill. I could see far enough to see three or four 'rows' of these hills, one behind the other. Very beautiful and serene but what was most astounding about these hills was that they were completely covered by people, standing so closely together that not one more person could have stood with them. There was a small open space between where the path ended and this large crowd stood, which is how I knew the grass was so lush.
On this grass, about midway between the end of the path and where the crowd started stood two people, one man, one woman. As remarkable as this whole scene was I was still even more astounded to see not one strand of hair on any of their heads, not one anywhere.
The two in front spoke no words but it was quite plain they were pleased to see 'Him'. No words were spoken to any from 'Him' either.
We turned and went back from where we had come from. Back into the little hallway till we turned left at the larger one.
We continued down this for some distance until we came to a doorway that was on our left.
I heard a voice say "This is a safe place for you."
The door opened and I went inside to a circular room about 50 steps in width. The room was decorated in many shades of brown and the 'outer wall' had shelves that went way round all filled with books. The middle had furnishings that matched the colors of the bookcases.
The door closed and I was alone.
I stood for a moment and went to the door and opened it just a crack. What I felt was sheer terror, and quickly re-closed the door and felt the terror was gone, as long as the door remained closed.
What was outside was not only terror but evil in that it had nothing good planned for me should I be foolish enough to open my door and go into the passage on my own.
I stood up at point.

I did not suggest they were proofs of gods, I said they are not proofs of anything. I was being general. I can qualify things to be more specific if necessary.
That sounds like fun.
 

AnnaG

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So all of it to you is "so what"?
All that is written in the books, yes.
Give us any book from God that is better than the Torah, the Gospel and the Quran.
As far as I know, all religious texts in Christianity are derived from the Bible, all religious texts in Islam are derived from the Quran, and so on, so there is not much point in showing any other books.
Anyone can say whatever they wish and then write it down. Just because they write it dowen does not mean there is any reality or fact involved with what they said and wrote.
 

MHz

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What about a confession from Daniel that states he was writing as dictated to and he didn't understand what he was writing about?
 

darkbeaver

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Motar;2165370]By your estimation, DB, Christians who point to the Lord Jesus Christ are idolatrous meat-worshippers ...

The bodily risen from the dead after three days in a tomb refreshed perfectly so Lord Jesus Christ. That's meat/flesh/matter and you think worshiping stones is odd. You a proud christian pointing to a mythical type epic that occurs to various dozens of peoples from remote antiquity same character same powers, so the worship of the Christ does not belong to the modern christian church, Egypt worshipped the same power and prospered because of thier knowlege of the subject.
... but Gnostics who venerate A. B. Kuhn by way of consistent citation are not?

I have never knelt before a statue of AB Kuhn impaled with iron nails to a wooden cross but I do enjoy his revelations as well as the other excellent studies of the subject. Incidently A B Kuhn hoped and worked hard for the salvation of the Christian Church. You don't really want to talk about Christ you want to talk about christianity, two different subjects.

That pyramid of imposture reared by Rome,
All of cement, for an eternal home,
Must crumble back to earth; and every gust
Shall revel in the desert of its dust;
And when the prison of the Immortal, Mind,
Hath fallen to set free the bound and blind,
No more shall life be one long dread of death,
Humanity shall breathe with fuller breath;
Expand in spirit and in stature rise,
To match its birth-place of the earth and skies.
 

darkbeaver

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This home of safety in the Next Life is also mentioned in another aya of the Quran, which means:
{ Quran 10: 25. God does invite [you] to the abode of peace i, and does guide whom He will j to a 'standard and straight' way k [of monotheism and exclusive devotion to God alone.]}
........................................................
i It means: The World is a home of distresses, afflictions and diseases, while the Next Life is a home of rest, prosperity and safety of diseases and afflictions; therefore, God invites you the home of safety in order to repose in it and be happy with its life and prosperity.
j i.e. the one who is worthy of the guidance.
k Which is the way of the truth.

The interpretation is by Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly.

This life on earth, in constant battle with matter and it's temptations, is the only hell we can know. Our souls are dead here trapped in flesh untill mind releases them from material entombment and they regain thier spiritual bodies. The little spark goes home.
 

MHz

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Da:7:15:
I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body,
and the visions of my head troubled me.

Da:7:27:
And the kingdom and dominion,
and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven,
shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High,
whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Da:7:28:
Hitherto is the end of the matter.
As for me Daniel,
my cogitations much troubled me,
and my countenance changed in me:
but I kept the matter in my heart.

Da:12:4:
But thou,
O Daniel,
shut up the words,
and seal the book,
even to the time of the end:
many shall run to and fro,
and knowledge shall be increased.
 

darkbeaver

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The Gnostic Horus says the same things in the same character, and these sayings, by whomsoever uttered, carry the mythical character with them. The sayings of Krishna as well as those of the Buddha are frequently identical with those of the Christ. I am the letter A, cries the one. I am the Alpha and Omega (or the A.O.), exclaims the other. I am the beginning, the middle, and the end, says Krishna--"I am the Light, I am the Life, I am the Sacrifice." Speaking of his disciples, he affirms that they dwell in him and he dwells in them. The attitude of the Sayer as the personal revealer, the veritable and visible image of the hidden God in the Gospels, is that of the mythical Horus, the representative of Osiris--of Iu as manifestor of Atum, and of Khunsu as the son of Amen-Ra, who was the hidden God by name. The status had been attained, and the stand was occupied by the mythical divinity, and no room was left for a human Claimant many centuries later. If we take the transfiguration on the Mount, Buddha ascended the mountain in Ceylon called Pandava or Yellow-White. There the heaven opened, and a great light was in full flood around him, and the glory of his person shone forth with "double power." He "shone as the brightness of Sun and Moon." This was the transfiguration of Buddha, identical with that of the Christ, and both are the same as that of Osiris in his ascent of the Mount of the Moon. The same scene of the temptation on the Mount was previously pourtrayed in the Persian account of the Devil tempting Zarathustra, and inviting him to curse the Good Belief. But these several forms of the one character do not meet, and did not originate in any human history--lived either in Egypt, India, Persia, or Judea. They only meet in the Mythos, which may be traced to a common origin in Egypt, where we can delve down to the real root of the matter. Astronomical mythology claims, and Egypt can account for, at least 30,000 years of time; and that alone will explain these relationships and likenesses found on the surface by an original identity at root. The myths of Christianity and Buddhism had a common origin, and branched from the same root in the soil of Egypt, whence emanated several dogmas,
57​
like that of the Immaculate virgin motherhood, and the divine child who is the ancestral soul self-reproduced. And in company with the doctrines we naturally find a few of the sayings of the Buddha, which have often been paralleled with some of those assigned to the Christ.


Gerald Massey's Lectures
Originally published in a private edition c. 1900

The nature of the "Sayings" is acknowledged by Irenæus when he says, "According to no one Saying of the heretics is the word of God made flesh." That is the Sayings which were current among the Gnostics as Knowers. Marcion knew and quoted the Gnostic saying which was afterwards amplified and quoted in John's Gospel--"No one knew the father save the son, nor the son save the father, and he to whom he will reveal him." This is a Gnostic saying, and it involves the Gnostic doctrine which cannot be understood independently of the Gnosis. It is quoted as one of the sayings before it was reproduced in the Gospel according to John.
 

Motar

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...you think worshiping stones is odd.

You a proud christian pointing to...

You don't really want to talk about Christ...

...you want to talk about christianity...

So much of your discussion is about me, DB - my thoughts, beliefs, character, desires and motives. These are things that only God can know and judge justly. So I am at a loss as to how to respond. Let's talk about Christ : )
 

darkbeaver

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Confused about Christ?

I have been adressing the confusion about Christ. Any bearing on you personally is coincidental, if I'm to be labled judgemental it may be seen plainly that I judge the modern christian church and not any particular member of that faith. I think that's plausable. Anyway thankyou for the interesting discussion.
That you should feel persecuted is however in keeping with biblical parrables.

"Be of them that are persecuted, not of them that persecute."
 

Motar

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Confused about Christ?

I have been adressing the confusion about Christ. Any bearing on you personally is coincidental, if I'm to be labled judgemental it may be seen plainly that I judge the modern christian church and not any particular member of that faith. I think that's plausable. Anyway thankyou for the interesting discussion.
That you should feel persecuted is however in keeping with biblical parrables.


We differ in our understanding of "Christian" and "church", DB, but your participation in and contribution to the discussion is always a blessing to me. Thank you.

"A person's a person no matter how small."

Dr. Seuss sounds "pro-life", doesn't he?