Canada Pays More For Monarchy Than UK

gerryh

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Nov 21, 2004
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Yes it is that simple. The only problem is people like you with no ability to think for yourself and too lazy to try something new.
Over 300 years and still hanging on to the poodles apron strings. Haven't contributed much have you? Just keep the peons in the colonies down.


poodles apron strings...rofl..... I see you have managed to learn something from sjp.....lol.


My heritage has nothing to do with the british, and Canada hasn't been a "colony" for quite some time. If you are so insecure that you need to hang onto that "colony" crap, that is your problem. The GG and the Queen of Canada being our head of state has NOTHING to do with being a "colony". Canada is a completely independent Country, and changing from a parliamentary monarchy type of Government to a republic style will not make us any more "independent".
 

SirJosephPorter

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Nov 7, 2008
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My view and the view of many others who don't believe a role as fundamentally important as Head of State should be appointed by a system which relies on the reproductive capacities of a foreign family...


Most people just don't think that it is such an important issue. You are hardly likely to get much traction on this one.

My guess is that most people (including me) don't care one way or other. It is difficult to get people enthusiastic on such an issue.
 

s_lone

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Feb 16, 2005
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Most people just don't think that it is such an important issue. You are hardly likely to get much traction on this one.

My guess is that most people (including me) don't care one way or other. It is difficult to get people enthusiastic on such an issue.

I think most people don't actually realize that the Queen really is the Head of State... Most people figure she's only a symbolic figure... In the end that's pretty much what she is but from a technical point of view, she is the ultimate authority... it's pretty pathetic Canadians are being so complacent about their system...

Good for you if you don't give a hoot about it... but I am ashamed of it...
 

Unforgiven

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May 28, 2007
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The Queen should have to live here to become the Head of State. Maybe a nice 2 bed and 2 bath in Rosedale?
 

SirJosephPorter

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I think most people don't actually realize that the Queen really is the Head of State... Most people figure she's only a symbolic figure... In the end that's pretty much what she is but from a technical point of view, she is the ultimate authority... it's pretty pathetic Canadians are being so complacent about their system...

Good for you if you don't give a hoot about it... but I am ashamed of it...


You are right, technically Queen has the power. However, in Canada (unlike USA) we rely on tradition. Traditionally Queen acts as a figurehead, and it will continue that way.

Same as Senate acts pretty much as figurehead. Technically it has fully as many powers as the House, it can propose legislation, it can vote down the legislation passed by the House etc. But it rarely does so. The reason is that it is not elected and so by tradition, it chooses not to exercise its power.

Or the Notwithstanding clause of the Charter. It is there to be used (as Randy White said, to the detriment of his party). However, tradition is that it should be used only in an emergency and so far no Prime minister has ever used it. Even Harper had to promise not to use it to stop gay marriage before he could get elected.

In Canada we put a great emphasis on tradition. Queen being a figurehead is part of the tradition.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
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Re: The Queen and Governor General

Her Majesty The Queen of Canada, and the Governor General of Canada, are at the constitutional core of our nation and cannot be removed or deposed without irrepairable damage to our system of government. The prime minister is completely absorbed with the day-to-day operations of government—it’s important to have a head of State (de facto or de jure) with the resources and the time to dedicate to decorations, honours, awards, and the promotion and development of Canadian culture. This would not be possible were these responsibilities to be downloaded onto the head of Government (the prime minister).

I would think that our most recent constitutional crisis would have been a wake-up call for the anti-monarchists out there—the idea of an elected, partisan individual being the highest constitutional authority under such a situation is absolutely mad. The Queen has always cherished her role as the Canadian sovereign, and Her Majesty has articulated this on several occasions—we should be proud to have such a professional, wise and calm head of State. It worries me that there are Canadians who would seek to destroy the monarchy, only to replace it with a presidency that would cost as just as much funds as the Office of the Governor General.

We should be proud of the monarchy, and proud of this constitutional and historical bond that we hold with the 15 other Realms of the Commonwealth. The exciting term so far of Her Excellency The Right Honourable Michaëlle Jean C.C., C.M.M., C.O.M., C.D., the Governor General of Canada—including our recent constitutional crisis—should make it evident enough to Canadians of all partisan associations that the role of The Queen, the Governor General and the monarchy as an institution must be defended.

(Thanks, eh1eh! :smile:)
 
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gerryh

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Nov 21, 2004
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it's about time you got here.....jeesz.....I figured alarm bells would have been going all over the place.
 

Polygong

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I'm all for keeping the monarchy, but that may change with the coronation of King Charles III. I like Liz, she's more like a matriarch than a monarch. She has always been fond of Canada and visited here more than any other country outside of the UK.

Even if we got rid of the monarchy, we'd still need a head of state, and the Governor General should fill that role nicely.

And BTW, the Governor-General does not act as the ambassador from the UK, that job is filled by the British High Commissioner in Ottawa.
 

Cannuck

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Well holy crap!!!! Look what the cat dragged in. How ya been 5P?

We agree on just about everything except this and, quite frankly, I'm a little embarrassed for you. You of all people should be able to come up with better arguments than that. For starters, the alternative to the Queen and the GG does not have to be the PM nor does it have to be an elected position. It doesn't have to be anything. The real issue is whether or not birth rite has a place in the 21st century.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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It's quite simple really. Give the GG the exact same powers the Queen has and bingo! Things just keep on working like they do AND Canada finally grows up to be its own nation!

What need is there for a GG if there is no more monarch?

Well... Old or new formula... Coke remains crap and it's not good for you.
The analogy is that change for the sake of change, or perceived values when there is no real change or additional value is fruitless, and sometimes causes harm rather than improving things.

Monarchy may not be causing any problems... it may be working ''fine''... But the principles underlying monarchy are not worthy of the truly modern nation Canada ought to be.
We don't have a monarchy. We have a constitutional monarchy, and our governance is through the parliamentary system, which is completely consistent with modern times. It works just as well in Belgium, Denmark, Japan, Luxembourg, Malaysia, The Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Thailand, The United Kingdom...
 

Polygong

Electoral Member
May 18, 2009
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What need is there for a GG if there is no more monarch?

The role of GG has long been evolving from simply a Queen's Representative role into a role of a functional Head of State as the monarchy has evolved into more of a symbolic Head of State.

We need a Head of State, and the Prime Minister does not fill that role.
 

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
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What need is there for a GG if there is no more monarch?

Doesn't your question self-defeat itself? What need is there for a monarch in the first place?

I understand that the role of the monarch is to be a guardian of our democracy. But that role could very well be given to a Canadian governor general (call it whatever you want)... The point is that the functions of the Queen could very well be taken by the GG. It already pretty much works that way... The Queen having more of a symbolic function in our day to day lives...

Out of principle, it seems to me that Canada deserves its own Canadian Head of State.
 

gerryh

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Nov 21, 2004
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Doesn't your question self-defeat itself? What need is there for a monarch in the first place?

I understand that the role of the monarch is to be a guardian of our democracy. But that role could very well be given to a Canadian governor general (call it whatever you want)... The point is that the functions of the Queen could very well be taken by the GG.


Ya know...... if it wasn't sooooooooo sad, the lack of knowledge concerning the Queen, the GG, and Canada, it would be funny.
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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Doesn't your question self-defeat itself? What need is there for a monarch in the first place?

No, because originally I said it wouldn't be as simple just penciling in another title. The need currently is that we need a Head of State. When you suggest it is that simple, and we just replace the Monarch with the Monarch's representative, I don't think most people who would be favorable to replacing the Monarch would even go for that, without substantial changes to how the GG is selected, and this is where it is no longer simple.

Do you recall how the debate raged about our flag? How do you suppose Canadians would reach consensus now, on what our new Head of State would be, and what would be different from the status quo now?

I understand that the role of the monarch is to be a guardian of our democracy. But that role could very well be given to a Canadian governor general (call it whatever you want)

The role of the Head of State is much more than that. But sticking to your assertion, an office selected by a government could destroy our democracy if that was what they wished, under this new arrangement. The Monarch can to some degree prevent laws which rip the fabric apart.

Here's the rub, we've never needed the Monarch to intervene, because there hasn't really been a time that called for it. But our system works the way it does because of conventions, and other unwritten rules. Surely you can see the slippery slope with removing those traditions, giving power to a figure head, and not making necessary safeguards?

Just penciling in a new name would require Articles like those in the US constitution which places limits on power.

Out of principle, it seems to me that Canada deserves its own Canadian Head of State.

Honestly, I don't feel that it matters. Our Government is here, and they are elected regularly. It's pretty much an unwritten rule that the Prime Minister is the head of state.
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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Doesn't your question self-defeat itself? What need is there for a monarch in the first place?

I understand that the role of the monarch is to be a guardian of our democracy.
She's failing miserably then. We don't have a democracy. It's barely a democratic oligarchy (mostly oligarchy).
 

SirJosephPorter

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Honestly, I don't feel that it matters. Our Government is here, and they are elected regularly. It's pretty much an unwritten rule that the Prime Minister is the head of state.

I quite agree, Tonington. The issue just isn’t that important. In spite of the opinion polls, my prediction would be that if put to a referendum, anti-monarchists probably would lose. People don’t feel strongly about it, and they don’t want a change.

Even if in abstract people want to get rid of the monarchy (according to the poll put up by dumpthemonarchy), anti-monarchists will have to do a lot of work before they have a realistic chance of winning.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
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Re: Constitutional Changes to The Queen

I’m not too worried.

There are so many advantages to the constitutional monarchy system of government that a presidential system never has access to, that I am convinced that it would take a great upheaval to unseat the monarchy and the associated institutions in Canada. We have never been a nation of irrational or violent revolution, so I don’t see any reason for such a trend to start today. The constitutional functions of the Office of the Governor General, and the several Offices of the Lieutenant Governors, that it would be lunacy to do away with them—it would undoubtedly be more expensive, anyway, to move to presidents and governors. Our selected representatives of Her Majesty The Queen of Canada are able to properly perform the constitutional role of the head of State because they are appointed (rather than elected), and because they represent a non-partisan authority to which each and every Canadian can proudly owe loyalty and allegiance to, without having to compromise one’s partisan views of the day.

Not just that, of course, but to abolish the institution of monarchy, or even to change the Office of the Governor General, we would need the agreement of the Honourable the Senate of Canada, the House of Commons, and each of the ten governments of the provinces. I very sincerely doubt that the entire nation would so readily and quickly agree to do away with an institution that has served as considerably well—and the alternative, a presidential republic, leaves almost everything to be desired. The costs of a republic would be on par, if not greater, so why would we go on to change our constitutional when it functions completely appropriately and correctly? And why would we want to leave a shared Crown and abandon the other 15 Commonwealth Realms. I very much appreciate our historic and constitutional relationship—I would even venture to suggest that we should be promoting the growth, expansion and strenthening of the Commonwealth of Nations, and not its decommissioning.

God save The Queen.

(I missed these discussions! :lol:)
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
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Re: Advantages of Monarchy

First and foremost, there is the question of unity.

Under a system of monarchy, the entire population can be loyal and united under The Crown of Canada—there need not be a question of partisan association, or of the most recent budget, or of armed forces activities, or of the decisions of the government of the day. The entire nation can be united under The Crown—under a presidential republic, this is not the case. I’m sure this is obvious enough in discussions where, far too often, phrases such as “your president” are bandied about, to emphasize one’s distance from their own head of State. It’s a most unfortunate phenomenon that those under a system of constitutional monarchy are able to avoid. We can be loyal to The Queen and The Crown, whilst also opposing the prime minister and his Government, and it raises no questions of national pride or patriotism.

Secondly, there is the question of the very constitutional structure of Canada.

We are fortunate enough to have a system where the executive authority is not vested in an elected individual—in practical terms, of course executive decisions rest with the prime minister, but the fact that the authority of those decisions does not rest with him or her is of paramount importance. Since a prime minister is accountable to both the House of Commons and The Crown, we have a system of government where the prime minister—should he ignore the express wishes of the House of Commons—can be removed for abuse of his constitutional prerogatives. Such is not the case with presidential republics, and this feature comes for free. We have a guarantee of responsible government—a feature that by its very nature can only exist under constitutional monarchy.

We are blessed with a system where the Governor General or The Queen can exercise such a vast range of constitutional powers, under emergency or exigent circumstances, as the case requires. This gives us a very adaptive system of government that can also be responsive to the events of the day. A prime minister that abuses his constitutional powers (knock on wood) can be dismissed with the entire authority of The Crown, and a Government thrown out of power—a Government can be commissioned in a mere moment, and it would have the entire authority of The Crown, and the law. These powers do, of course, sound radical—and they are. This is why these powers are not used, but rather exist as a safeguard against threats to Canada’s democracy. Such emergency powers could not be used with any semblence of legitimacy by an elected representative.

And of course, there is the issue of honours, and of the command-in-chief of the Canadian Forces. It is inappropriate for the members of the Canadian armed forces to have to be united under the leader of a political party—it is far more appropriate, and practical, to be united and commissioned under The Queen and Her Majesty’s representatives. The same concept stands for honours and decorations—awards and such should be awarded by someone who is non-partisan, just as justice should be administered in the name of a non-partisan authority, again The Queen.

The background mechanics performed by constitutional monarchy, for our system, cannot be replicated by a president.

And once again, I’m not worried about the monarchy losing its status for Canadians—I cannot foresee the Senate, Commons and the ten provincial legislatures coming to an agreement to toss the Governor General and Her Majesty out. We are fortunate to be governed by a system of constitutional monarchy, and I very much hope that its key characteristics are maintained and strengthened in the years to come.
 
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