Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert
Who are you to tell me what I assume? Isn't that an assumption of itself?
I said that because you were talking about "attracting people," as if the general strategy of evangelism is the same as marketing for a Tupperware party. The strategy demonstrated by Christ is to share the word -- the law and the gospel --
this word repulses more people than it attracts. It's a beautiful message for those whom the Father gives to the Son, but is an aroma of judgment and death to those who are perishing.
Just because some fairytale Christians have decided to "fix" the offense of the Gospel by watering down the message doesn't mean that's what Christ did, or intended us to do.
Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert Funny, I thought this numbskull loved everyone and all things. Ya know, like it says in the Bible? Um "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son ...." etc. Jesus, whose alterego is this god, according to the Bible, said "hate not the sinner". You can't have it both ways. It's extremely illogical and downright irrational.
Don't call him a numbskull. Try to maintain a basic level of respect. You'd consider it quite rude if I talked about
your father like that. It's difficult for people to take you seriously if you resort to language that invokes memories from our years at elementary school.
If you read the Bible, you realize that he does not "love everyone and all things." As for "hate not the sinner," I've got a newsflash for you. Regardless of what washed-out Osteen Christians have told you, God Hates Sinners. It's not even logical to "hate sin" but not the sinner. Who gets punished for sin?
Sinners! That's why we're in hot soup unless another is punished in our place, as if He were the sinner.
As for how Christians are commanded to live, we aren't God, which means we don't presume to do all the same things God does. For example, it's not my place or business or right to hate a sinner, because, in the first place,
I myself am a sinner! The holy and righteous God, however, is perfectly justified to hate sinners. If this were not so, then hell would not be a viable doctrine, and perhaps this explains why some are removing this doctrine, though Christ preached it clearly.
As for John 3:16, "the world" is used to indicated that Christ's saving work is not limited to one time or place but applies to the elect from all over the world. This verse must be embraced along with all Bible verses, which clearly show that there is a such thing as "reprobates," who are not receiving the remedy that God has provided, and will perish. If he loved them, this would not be happening. He does not love them -- he hates them.
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyLike I said, you know nothing of the history of the bible or Christianity. Jesus was not deified until 300 years after his death. It was then that MEN wrote in the stuff about "the only begotten Son" stuff. Before that he was just a highly esteemed rabbi. Jesus never claimed to be the Son of god.
The bible is a guide book that was written for ignorant goat herders and people who were tearing Constantine's empire apart over conflicting ideologies. The bible was put together to create the one official religion of Rome in an attempt to end that conflict. Thus began one of the worst periods in history where millions, possibly billions, of people were slaughtered over a false doctrine. The authors had no way of knowing the outcome of their folly, which was they took encoded writings and made them gospel. Their ignorance created a debacle of biblical proportions. The only reason the bible has survived to this day is than anyone who did not toe the accepted doctrinal line met with a horrible death. The self-fulfilling prophesies of the NT have already been fulfilled. The slaughter began 1700 years ago.
What are your sources for this revised historical account?
Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy I guaranty that should Jesus return tomorrow, Christians, particularly the born again evangelicals would be the first to declare him a charlatan and demand his head on a pike.
For the record, I'm not somebody who would be generally identified as an "evangelical," as that word has come to be used.
Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35..................
Oh, so the "Lord's Prayer" taught by Jesus means nothing??? Remember the first words........Our Father who art in heaven. For Pete's sake who the heck have humans been praying to all these years??
What did I say that contradicted the Lord's Prayer?
Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35 As to believing that a dead body can be reanimated after 3 days in a hot climate, come now, just imagine the shape it would have been in. This is not the way of reasonable being. If we were meant to believe something along those lines, then any good God would have made sure proof was offered to all re his existence.
This underlines one of my points -- we are those who believe that a dead man came back to life in a glorious body, so it should be evident that we're not going to have a difficult time believing in 6 day creation, the sun stopping in the sky, and the donkey rebuking Balaam.
Fact is, the message of "
Christ crucified [is] a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."
I cannot undo this prophecy, that to the uncalled, this message of Christ is foolishness. All I can do is identify myself with it and be ridiculed along with it -- such is my privilege.
Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35 Since God, according to Jesus said we were all His children, then Jesus was no more unique than any other portion of existence.
In a general creative sense, all men and women are children of God. However, the Bible is clear that in the strict sense of this phrase, only
believers are the children of God. (John 1:12; Romans 9:8; 1 John 3:10.)
Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35 If, in the beginning there was only Spirit, then it stands to reason all that exists is part and parcel of that Spirit. Now that makes me as well as you God.
This sounds like Buddhism. I'm not a philosopher, but I think by confessing that God transcends the physical universe he created, this implies that the creatures are not, therefore, automatically "part of [Him]." On the other hand, our Lord speaks of a coming perfect oneness with him (see John 17:21-23). The "oneness" language used here is the same as the oneness language Christ uses about His relationship with the Father, from which the church historically articulated the Trinity doctrine.
Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35 Has God always existed?? Is He the one and only God ? Highly unlikely considering the contrariness of creation and the circumstances of our existence. Why did He create Evil?? Why did He create homosexuals, bisexuals, hermaphrodites etc?? He obviously did as, they have always existed. Why create these flaws and then punish us for following the natures given us?? Certainly an all knowing, perfect creator, would know we were not perfect. Ergo, either God does not exist, or the Bible and what it teaches is a fairy tale.
People often assume that it's Christians who've got this difficult "problem of evil" to explain. I suggest that it's the atheists who can't satisfactorily answer it.
“My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?” -- C.S. Lewis
Evil is part of God's sovereignty, through which He works all things for the good of those who love Him -- "
those who are called according to his purpose." (See Romans 8:28.)
A comprehensive answer to this question, from a theologian, is over at
John Piper's website (click).
If you don't believe in God, why do you even identify something as "evil"? If all things evolved, according to the laws of evolution, then why should one behavior be called "evil" and another "good"? (Or, according to what arbitrary standard, and who has authority to decide?)
Furthermore, there are certain behaviors, such as homosexuality, that can't be satisfactorily explained by evolution theory. The Biblical view doesn't have a hard time with that at all -- for if men are fallen, then their hearts are inclined toward all that opposes the nature of God. That's why I'm tempted to hate, tempted to covet, tempted to sexual immorality. I see the problem, I see why it's happening, and I see the Solution.
P.S. you're right that he "knows we're not perfect." That's why He provided the "good news," savvy? This is the Gospel that people keep ignoring.
It's not rational for you to complain to God about the bad news while you insist on ignoring the good news.
Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35As to believing that a dead body can be reanimated after 3 days in a hot climate, come now, just imagine the shape it would have been in. This is not the way of reasonable being. If we were meant to believe something along those lines, then any good God would have made sure proof was offered to all re his existence.
I forgot to answer that one... "proof was offered." Over 500 people witnessed the risen Christ. You can't say that about most historical events that you aren't busy questioning. Oh, the 500 witnesses died and we can't talk to them? Correct, that's what happens to witnesses. As it turns out, apostle Paul wrote a letter identifying the existence of these witnesses during the time when they were still alive. The recipients of the letter could verify what he said by talking to the witnesses. If they found his claim to be false, they would have tossed his letter into the garbage. As it turns out, they instead stuck it into the canon of holy scripture, the most published book in the world. You wanted more "proof" from God? There's a neat story in the Bible about people wanting more proof:
"The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. [...] And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father [Abraham], to send [Lazarus] to my father's house— for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’” (From Luke 16.)
