Your thoughts on official unilingualism?

Official Constitutional and federal unilingualism in each province and territory?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 56.3%
  • No.

    Votes: 6 37.5%
  • Other answers.

    Votes: 1 6.3%

  • Total voters
    16

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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I don't remember all the exceptions offhand, but the vast majority of products must be labeled bilingually.

Of course even if it weren't legally binding, some would package and label bilingually none the less. Kellogg packaged bilingually long before it was legally obligated to do so.
It just made good business sense given that company's particular circumstances.

But as I'd pointed out in the BC example, it making it legally binding does have a negative impact none the less.

Can you read bar code codes without the laser scanner and the computer?

... and are they Anglo at their heart?

Just curious ....

Bar codes are bar codes.

Honestly, I could almost support either English or French on packaging Canada wide. Even if a business in Quebec City could legally sell a product packaged in English only, he wouldn't do it because it would make no business sense.

However, I know sivereignists would never go for that, so I figure English in the RIC and French in Quebec as the only obligatory languages on any packaging could open international markets on both sides.
 

Queb

Electoral Member
Jun 23, 2013
293
0
16
There is no law against having packaging with no English on it, I don't believe ... maybe, foodstuffs where you have to show ingredients. I'm sure that I've seen all sorts of goods with Chinese only on them in Chinese stores and malls. Anglophones don't generally feel as threatened (as much, anyway) by "others".
You should speak with anglo in Montreal :)
 

Queb

Electoral Member
Jun 23, 2013
293
0
16
I was an Anglo in Montreal for 29 years. Whatever the Pur Laine fascists think that they can do to that populstion, they can't. They will be crushed.
Exactly what I had in head :)

Pure Laine fachistes....

Seems like a lot of English speakers are racist to the people of Quebecers and did not realize it. It's like that, if it's Quebecers, it's ok to do it. That reflects what is being said in the media of the ROC.
 

Curious Cdn

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 22, 2015
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Exactly what I had in head :)

Pure Laine fachistes....

Seems like a lot of English speakers are racist to the people of Quebecers and did not realize it. It's like that, if it's Quebecers, it's ok to do it. That reflects what is being said in the media of the ROC.

This is also true. They are dying off (the Quebec ons, anyway).

I love it in Quebec and I took a job in Montreal a decade ago, bringing my family along. The children were young and didn't notice much. I had been gone since the mid 1980s and I was amazed that the place was in a time warp/bubble, stuck in 1976 forever. We did not stay long, though. My wife experienced a lot of racism. She is of Flemish/Polish/Scottish extraction, so it is not because of how she looks. It really bothered her. I think that I was so used to it, I don't even notice, anymore.

That edgy dynamic of two cultures rubbing up together against each other was very creative, as it is everywhere else in the world where it occurs. Quebec is poorer for its destruction.
 

Queb

Electoral Member
Jun 23, 2013
293
0
16
This is also true. They are dying off (the Quebec ons, anyway).

I love it in Quebec and I took a job in Montreal a decade ago, bringing my family along. The children were young and didn't notice much. I had been gone since the mid 1980s and I was amazed that the place was in a time warp/bubble, stuck in 1976 forever. We did not stay long, though. My wife experienced a lot of racism. She is of Flemish/Polish/Scottish extraction, so it is not because of how she looks. It really bothered her. I think that I was so used to it, I don't even notice, anymore.

That edgy dynamic of two cultures rubbing up together against each other was very creative, as it is everywhere else in the world where it occurs. Quebec is poorer for its destruction.
The supposed poverty of Quebec is a old Canadian fantasm. Quebec certainly has challenges ahead but is far from being the ****hole that you try to describe. It is certain that it is easy for people who have the *** soaked in oil to make the braggarts and others who took advantage of the auto pact for years and using the federal whenever it was necessary to be dismissive.

I do not know what you call the "racism" towards your wife. It's not impossible. We have our big con in Quebec also.

I know that in Montreal the Anglo do as if they were in the ROC. They live in their cultural bubble. They expect to live, play, work and study in English at all times. They cater to everyone in English. They act as if it was going to be all people talk to them in English.

When I reply in French to English he looks at me with disdainful manner. It made me understand that I am rude to him.

The other day I was in a Subway's restaurant in Boucherville. A guy come in and order his sandwinch in English. I said, you're lucky to be served in English here isn't ? He then had an aggressive attitude tellingme that we were still in Canada. That's the attitude I'm used to see from anglo in Montreal.
 

Queb

Electoral Member
Jun 23, 2013
293
0
16
That edgy dynamic of two cultures rubbing up together against each other was very creative, as it is everywhere else in the world where it occurs.

Why should Quebec be a nation where two different cultures exist side by side?

Why is it that Quebec should agree to share his space with another culture while the rest of Canada has always refused?

Let fall a little while hypocrisy and say things as they are. It is impossible for Quebecers to ignore the culture and language of Canada in the ROC. It is impossible to live there, entertain there, work there and study in French. The disappearance of French in the ROC is not a coincidence. Canada has done everything since the beginning of Confederation to ensure an overwhelming preponderance of English everywhere. Why today blandly ask that Quebecers do not do the same to their own culture on their own national territory? By what principle?
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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I think one difference is in linguistic political culture. When it comes to language policy, English-speakers are at least comparatively far more liberal-minded than French-speakers, probably due to a combination of nostalgia for the past greatness of French and the threatened dominant status of French today which has resulted in a heavy-handed reaction against the decline of its dominance.

Though I'm a native French-speaker myself, I've been strongly influenced by the relatively more linguistically libéral English culture.

That said, that culture is under attack too with English-speakers in Richmond trying to impose English onto shops in Richmond.

Part of the problem on both sides (especially the English one) is a sence of entitlement to be served in my language, something that is far less prevalent in the allophone cultures.

Compare Indonesian culture for example with over 100 languages and the Malay representing over 40% of the population. Instead of imposing their own language they went with Bahasa Indonesia, spoken by less than 10% of the population as a mother tongue and 1% as an only language. Why? Because it was an easier language to learn.

In other words, the Malay willingly abandoned their right to their language in favour of an obligation to learn a second.

In some respects, I do find the English insistence that they need not learn a second language and the world should bowbto English to be a major part of the problem, but Quebec's reaction to it in trying to impose French on everyone in Quebec is equally wrong.

Why couldn't the English meet Québec half way? While their could be many ways of doing so, here's one possible hypothetical scenario:

The ministries of education of the majority English-speaking provinces allow Esperanto (which is from five to ten times easier to learn than English or French) to fulfil the second-language requirement for highschool graduation. Because Esperanto is so easy to learn, a dull student could master it by the end of high school after taking core Esperanto with no need for immersion but maybe intensive Esperanto for the absolute weakest students with learning disabilities.

Ministries of Education could then negotiate with their counterparts in Quebec, Nunavut, reserves, and US border states to allow Esperanto to fulfil the second-language requirement in their schools too to allow their populations to communicate with each other. Canada could even include the allowance for Esperanto to fulfil the second-language requirement for highschool graduation a part of any future trade deal.

In more bilingual areas such as Moncton or Richmond, local government could require local businesses to use either the dominant local language or Esperanto if they insist on imposing any language law on the private sector.

Since everyone would know Esperanto, no one would feel left out.

In agreement with interested provinces, Federal Government could gradually replace English and French by the dominant local language and Esperanto.

Such a policy could alleviate French feats for their language at least somewhat and so possibly reduce the intolerance they often express against non-French-speaking Anglos, indigenous Quebecers, etc.

But we can't blame it all on Québec. Anglo unilingualism and a certain sence of Anglo entitlement contributes greatly to the French sence of entitlementand authoritarianism in Quebec.

They feed off of one another.

Canadian government promotion of English language instruction abroad through CIDA and Canadian heritage doesn't help either.

Also if you want to promote national unity, Esperanto could help there too.

Québec can't separate without splitting it's borders without gaining the support of its indigenous peoples.

Why should Quebec be a nation where two different cultures exist side by side?

Why is it that Quebec should agree to share his space with another culture while the rest of Canada has always refused?

Let fall a little while hypocrisy and say things as they are. It is impossible for Quebecers to ignore the culture and language of Canada in the ROC. It is impossible to live there, entertain there, work there and study in French. The disappearance of French in the ROC is not a coincidence. Canada has done everything since the beginning of Confederation to ensure an overwhelming preponderance of English everywhere. Why today blandly ask that Quebecers do not do the same to their own culture on their own national territory? By what principle?

To clarify, even Japan is not totally homogeneous. It has the Aunu to the North and Koreans on the East Coast. And Japan is not a good model since it generally ignores their rights.

Then we have Indonesia with over 100 languages. The Makay represent over 40% yet chose Bahasa Indonesia which is spoken by few as a mother tongue because it was an easier common language to learn.

Now that's magnanimity and kindness on the part if the dominant culture. That's a model from which Canadians can learn.

The Hungarian Constitution is another model. Hungarian sign language is an official language of the vonstitution and Hungary's almost non-existent minorities also enjoy significant rights considering their representation.In second language learning too it is a model.

So why would Québec want to stoop do low as to outdo English Canadian bigotry? Why not look for a better model elsewhere?
 

Queb

Electoral Member
Jun 23, 2013
293
0
16
I think one difference is in linguistic political culture. When it comes to language policy, English-speakers are at least comparatively far more liberal-minded than French-speakers, probably due to a combination of nostalgia for the past greatness of French and the threatened dominant status of French today which has resulted in a heavy-handed reaction against the decline of its dominance.

Come on

English people did everything to make sure that english will be predominant everywhere in the ROC. They hang one to make sure that Manitoba will never be a french province. It's not exactly what I am calling "liberal". In fact, the action of Quebec to promote french in Quebec is recent and the measures taken to reach this point are far smoother than what Anglo could do in the ROC and a lot more respectful of the constitution and the principle of the founding Nation of the confederation.

Now that they won everywhere, they ask us to be "smooth" on the french predominance in Quebec. In fact, they ask us to resign to it. It should be fun that we can discuss without trying to rewrite the history.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Let's not forget that French Quebecers are just as colonialist as their English counterparts. And while you might treat your indigenous peoples better, it's purely for political showmanship. Treat them just a little better than in English Canada and then brag about it while still not treating them nearly well enough.

An Algonquin entrepreneur who puts up a business sign in Algonquin and another language both in the same size would face a fine from the OLF and would-be required to take the sign down.

I hate to say it, but both sides are just as bad.
 

Queb

Electoral Member
Jun 23, 2013
293
0
16
Let's not forget that French Quebecers are just as colonialist as their English counterparts. And while you might treat your indigenous peoples better, it's purely for political showmanship. Treat them just a little better than in English Canada and then brag about it while still not treating them nearly well enough.

An Algonquin entrepreneur who puts up a business sign in Algonquin and another language both in the same size would face a fine from the OLF and would-be required to take the sign down.

I hate to say it, but both sides are just as bad.
As any laws, bill 101 have his bad side sometime. But aborigene sign should be an easy fix.

Compare bill 101 to the denial of french institution and services in the ROC is hypocritical.
 

Danbones

Hall of Fame Member
Sep 23, 2015
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Being bilingual myself, I think both languages and cultures should have equal rights
however here in frenglish land in the roc:
The bilingual population here all speak anglais when there is a buck to be had
but when the government made money available
well blow me down
suddenly it became a big issue

and we were completely HAPPILY INTEGRATED up till then and it worked just fine
and we are one of the (if not the) oldest white settled communities in upper Canada
first catholic mass in upper canada etc
champlain, brule... then the british navy...
all that
oldest winter carnival...
our french irish indian heritage
we know how to throw a party
 
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Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
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Come on

English people did everything to make sure that english will be predominant everywhere in the ROC. They hang one to make sure that Manitoba will never be a french province. It's not exactly what I am calling "liberal". In fact, the action of Quebec to promote french in Quebec is recent and the measures taken to reach this point are far smoother than what Anglo could do in the ROC and a lot more respectful of the constitution and the principle of the founding Nation of the confederation.

Now that they won everywhere, they ask us to be "smooth" on the french predominance in Quebec. In fact, they ask us to resign to it. It should be fun that we can discuss without trying to rewrite the history.

I wasn't rewriting history. I wasn't even discussing history. I agree with everything you just said on the historical front.

I was talking about today. Today, Québec language laws are far stricter than the English ones.

I'm not denying either that the present dominance of English is due to English oppression in the past.

Let's imagine the following. I become rich by robbing my neighbours. When I die, I give all of my wealth to my child but my neighbours have nothing to give their children and their children become poor. My child then learns where his inheritance came from. This forces him to make one of two difficult choices. He can either share his wealth with his neighbours or keep the money.

If he says that he is not responsible for my thefts, he is correct. He had no part in it. But he can't deny that he benefitted unjustly from the spoils that he inherited from me. By refusing to share the spoils, he tacitly approves of the thefts and so accepts at least a degree of moral responsibility for my actions.

English Canadians who reclaim the right to personal unilingualism tacitly refuse to share the spoils that they have inherited from their ancestors through the British Empire.

However, the same holds true of the world's French speakers inheriting from the linguistic spoils of the French Empire.

We are not responsible for the spoils we inherit from our ancestors, but we are responsible for what we do with these spoils. To my mind, the act of learning Esperanto was my way of sharing the linguistic spoils that I had inherited from the linguistic pillage of the past.

Of course that is not the only way to do so. Learning a sign language or the local indigenous language is a way to do so too.

Learning English as a second language doesn't count since that just rewards the English for having hung on to their spoils.

Nothing wrong with learning English per se, but it still does not contribute to a sharing of the inherited spoils.
 

Queb

Electoral Member
Jun 23, 2013
293
0
16
I hate to say it, but both sides are just as bad.


À l'instar des autres provinces, le gouvernement du Québec ne s'est intéressé que tardivement à la question des droits des autochtones. Toutefois, depuis 1975, le Québec a adopté plusieurs mesures dans les domaines de sa compétence, y compris dans celui de la langue. Le Québec est la seule de toutes les provinces canadiennes à avoir reconnu explicitement des droits à ses autochtones. Voici à ce sujet ce qu'on lit dans le préambule de la Charte de la langue française:

L'Assemblée nationale reconnaît aux Amérindiens et aux Inuit du Québec, descendants des premiers habitants du pays, le droit qu'ils ont de maintenir et de développer leur langue et leur culture d'origine.

Ces principes s'inscrivent dans le mouvement universel de revalorisation des cultures nationales qui confère à chaque peuple l'obligation d'apporter une contribution particulière à la communauté internationale. [....]

[....¸] L'affichage émanant d'un conseil municipal amérindien ou d'un conseil de bande peut se faire en langue autochtone. Malgré les dispositions de la loi 178 (désuète), l'affichage commercial est permis en algonkin, en attikamek, en cri, en inuktitut, en naspaki, en montagnais, etc.

https://salic.uottawa.ca/?q=autochtones_juridique
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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As any laws, bill 101 have his bad side sometime. But aborigene sign should be an easy fix.

Compare bill 101 to the denial of french institution and services in the ROC is hypocritical.

Bill 101 is today.

The ROC does respect the Constitution today. The reason French speakers assimilate more in the ROC is this. In Quebec, Anglos are very geographically concentrated. In the ROC, French speakers are thinly spread.

While English-speaker in Montreal are slowly losing their English due to exogamy to French speakers, the rate if exogamy is less than for French in the RIC due to the English in Montreal being geographically so concentrated.

The rate if exogamy among French speakers in the RIC is sky high due to its dispersal.

That has nothing to do with disrespecting the Constitution. Economies of scale are not present when we are all dispersed.

But if you look at where we are concentrated (south East Ontario and New Brunswick), we are just as well treated as Anglilos in Montreal.

Can we say Anglos Québec City are mistreated? Of course not. It's just that with their being drowned in a French environment, high rates of exogamy are inevitable.

The Constitution can't help high rates of exogamy, emigration, etc.

Same with birth rates. The Constitution helps, but it can't solve everything. Life, marriages, exogamy, emigration, the Constitution cannot control these.
 

Queb

Electoral Member
Jun 23, 2013
293
0
16
I was talking about today. Today, Québec language laws are far stricter than the English ones.

Today, french people are still fighting to get basic services in french in ROC. Just to have the same quality of services in the EXISTING french school as the english school have, it is a battle that must go up to supreme court. Quebec spend more money in the actual english educational system than the proportion of the english population deserve but in the ROC the french education school are under financed, lower than the proportion of french people are in the ROC.

The fight against Bill 101 is full of hypocrisies. Event with this laws, english sign and presence in the commercial life is more present in Quebec than french can be in the ROC. Anybody that have an once of honesty will recognize this fact.

Bill 101 is today.

The denial of francophones rights in the ROC also is "today"
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
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As any laws, bill 101 have his bad side sometime. But aborigene sign should be an easy fix.

Compare bill 101 to the denial of french institution and services in the ROC is hypocritical.

But priorities say something. Why has no one noticed it in the government? Because things like the Charter of Québec 'Values' took precedence.

I remember a story. An Indian and his friend are walking in New York. The Indian stops to listen to a cricket. His friend can't hear it, so the Indian explains that it has to do with what we consider important. To prove it, he takes a coin and purposely drops it on the ground for his friend to observe how while passers by will fail to hear the cricket, they'll hear the coin and look to make it's not theirs.

That is why it is still in Bill 101.

Why does the Hungarian Constitution includeba sign language but our doesn't? Again, it reflects our values, our priorities. We have had plenty of opportunities do do do just like gearing a cricket in NYC if we wanted to.
 

Queb

Electoral Member
Jun 23, 2013
293
0
16
The ROC does respect the Constitution today.

NO

And the " symbolic compromise" to french rights is recent. They did it for 2 main reasons:

1- the raise of nationalism in Quebec.

2- Their is no more "competition" for english predominance in the ROC. French and french community are virtually death in the ROC. French in the ROC is folkloric thing... just good for tourism. All people in the ROC including french people have to work, communicate with governments, study, go at the hospital etc. in english.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
À l'instar des autres provinces, le gouvernement du Québec ne s'est intéressé que tardivement à la question des droits des autochtones. Toutefois, depuis 1975, le Québec a adopté plusieurs mesures dans les domaines de sa compétence, y compris dans celui de la langue. Le Québec est la seule de toutes les provinces canadiennes à avoir reconnu explicitement des droits à ses autochtones. Voici à ce sujet ce qu'on lit dans le préambule de la Charte de la langue française:

L'Assemblée nationale reconnaît aux Amérindiens et aux Inuit du Québec, descendants des premiers habitants du pays, le droit qu'ils ont de maintenir et de développer leur langue et leur culture d'origine.

Ces principes s'inscrivent dans le mouvement universel de revalorisation des cultures nationales qui confère à chaque peuple l'obligation d'apporter une contribution particulière à la communauté internationale. [....]

[....¸] L'affichage émanant d'un conseil municipal amérindien ou d'un conseil de bande peut se faire en langue autochtone. Malgré les dispositions de la loi 178 (désuète), l'affichage commercial est permis en algonkin, en attikamek, en cri, en inuktitut, en naspaki, en montagnais, etc.

https://salic.uottawa.ca/?q=autochtones_juridique

I'd read Bill 101 a while back, so I know that. But like I said above, Québec still treats its indigenous peoples better than the ROC does motivated in part by political motives, to try to win indigenous support for sovereignty. Maybe it's a good outcome, but not as sincere as doing it for its own sake. The proof is that Québec still does not do enough. It satisfies itself with treating them better than the ROC does do it can pay itself on the back.

I'm not defending the ROC here.

The ROC is often blind to its shortcomings and do are Quebecers to theirs.

Instead of eachsid denigrating the other, why not loo at ourselves.d