WTC Deaths Apparently justified according to Israeli Logic

[humanbeing]

Re: WTC Deaths Apparently justified according to Israeli Log

It's interesting to note that critics of Israel like me and Caleb-Dain Matton, are quickly compared to Nazi's.

I would suggest this has something to do with the media's constant references to the Holocaust, the message being: If you criticize Israel that makes you a Nazi.

Such nonsense. Indeed the critics of Israel - Zionism are many Jews themselves who have seen first hand the daily and provocative de-humanization of Pals at IDF hands.....

Indeed.

They seem to love trying to compare you or Palestinians to nazis, they love to throw mud on you and call you an anti-semite, or an idiot, or a nut, or some other name. But what they cannot seem to do is have a solid argument with you. This extends from many of the people on these forums up to guys like Alan Dershowitz. Or at least, this is the impression I am getting so far.

I believe your suggestion that the media is a major factor, is correct. Perhaps in this way as well as in many others. I'd argue this, for sure.

 

[humanbeing]

RE: WTC Deaths Apparently

I am sure the sonic booms caused lots of terror, just to name a few of the IDF's acts of aggression.

Yup, this, along with the whole suppression of Palestine, must mean something... but it doesn't seem to factor in for these guys.

 

[Lithp]

And so when Israeli soldiers steal some members of a Palestinian's family (children or what not), the Palestinians are justified in levelling entire Israeli neighbourhoods and everything in them until the family members were returned?

Israelis have even been warned by a certain few Palestinians. The mass media certainly runs enough footage of them making threats towards Israel... we've seen it on TV quite often - and usually the same couple of guys for several days straight. I've heard people here talking about it before... you seem them in their little masks, talking about avenging losses and what not.

So what gives? Does the logic only apply for you, or does it apply for all sides? Or did you make a mistake when you were typing?

I made no mistake. The logic applies to both sides. The difference is that the Israelis do not specifically target the civilian population in an attempt to wipe them off the map.(Although the attack on the UN staff has me wondering.... It would be a brutally effective way of dragging them into the conflict.)

Israel is surrounded by countries bent on its destruction. These countries don't try to hide the fact that they want another holocaust. If my country or people had already suffered one holocaust you could bet I would never let it happen again. Some of Israel's moves to capture and kill Hamas and Hezbolla militants were preventative measures. Yes, preventative measures.

But you have still missed the point. Lebanon has done nothing to stop the attacks on Israel. Syria and Iran still influence and control Lebanon. Iran give Hezbolla $100 000 000 per year in funding. Where do you think they get all of the rockets from?

If militant factions in southern Ontario started to attack northern states do you think the US would sit idly by? They would demand that Ontario (or Canada) control those factions or they will themselves. If Ontario did nothing then Ontario would be to blame. For Ontario allowed these factions to operate on their soil, knowing full well who and where they are. The same holds true for Lebanon.

 

[humanbeing]

Re: WTC Deaths Apparently justified according to Israeli Log

I made no mistake. The logic applies to both sides. The difference is that the Israelis do not specifically target the civilian population in an attempt to wipe them off the map.(Although the attack on the UN staff has me wondering.... It would be a brutally effective way of dragging them into the conflict.)

Wow... did you mean to say, they don't ALWAYS specifically target the civilian population, but often do?

http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/lbn-210706-action-eng

By the way, the UN cannot be dragged into the conflict because the US is blocking them from acting right now. Don't you know anything about the way the UN works? It can only say things like "we condemn the violent actions of both sides, blah blah blah" as long as they are blocked or vetoed. The US is blocking them, and with Israel's support.

Israel is surrounded by countries bent on its destruction. These countries don't try to hide the fact that they want another holocaust. If my country or people had already suffered one holocaust you could bet I would never let it happen again. Some of Israel's moves to capture and kill Hamas and Hezbolla militants were preventative measures. Yes, preventative measures.

If the countries were bent on its destruction, they (as in the nation-states themselves and their military forces) would be attacking it left, right, and center, much as Israel has done to countries surrounding it for many years. Does this mean that Israel is similarly bent on their destruction?

And preventive? Do you understand what is meant by "preventative measures"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preventive_war

"Whatever the justifications for pre-emptive war might be, they do not hold for preventive war, particularly as that concept is interpreted by its current enthusiasts: the use of military force to eliminate an invented or imagined threat, so that even the term “preventive” is too charitable. Preventive war is, very simply, the “supreme crime” condemned at Nuremberg."
-Noam Chomsky

But you have still missed the point. Lebanon has done nothing to stop the attacks on Israel. Syria and Iran still influence and control Lebanon. Iran give Hezbolla $100 000 000 per year in funding. Where do you think they get all of the rockets from?

And Israel does nothing to stop its own attacks on Lebanon and Palestine. The US influences Israel to a great extent-perhaps even more so than Syria and Iran influence and control Lebanon(and they also block any international attempts at a resolution to the ongoing conflicts). Then there is the question of where Israel got many of their weapons, among other things, from?

If militant factions in southern Ontario started to attack northern states do you think the US would sit idly by? They would demand that Ontario (or Canada) control those factions or they will themselves. If Ontario did nothing then Ontario would be to blame. For Ontario allowed these factions to operate on their soil, knowing full well who and where they are. The same holds true for Lebanon.

If the US was occupying and suppressing Canada, or making incursions into Canada and attacking Canada and its people, then you can bet that there will be militant factions, or elements, in southern Ontario (among other locations) attacking the US! That would be completely understandable given the circumstances (though they're not necassarily justified in killing American civilians)... it would be seen as people resisting something*, unless it was covered in this thick ideological fog like that which surrounds the issues over in the Middle East.

And this holds true for any other people, except I am not just talking about some elements within a country, I am talking about an identifiable military force (the IDF) of a nation (Israel), that is committing atrocities.

* edit: that something is territorial displacement

 

[Lithp]

Still don't get it. Unlike you I am capable of thinking within more than one vein. The fact that I merely questioned the attack on UN staff does not mean that I am making the statement you asserted. It merely means I am open minded and do not profess to be an Israeli or Arab politician or general. Are you an expert on Arab-Israeli realations? We are all arm chair quarterbacking here. Including you. And yes I am aware how the UN works. Am I an expert no. Are you? The attack on the UN staff did however put more pressure on the US and Israel. Which could in turn result in the UN acting with the approval of the Security Council.

The countries are bent on Israel's destruction. To say that they would be attacking it left right and centre is illogical. Even those countries are aware of that. They are out gunned and the US is on Israel's side. Apparently military tacticts is not your forté. The arab countries have vowed to drive Israel into the sea. Iran's president just said within the past 48 hours that the region would be better off if Israel did not exist. (That is not the first time he has said that either)

Is Israel completely blameless? No. Is Lebanon? No. Do we all want peace in the Middle East? Of course.

You can quote Chomsky or Mohammed or Abraham all you want. You can't reason with terrorists.Period.You either kill them or capture them before they strike. This Prevents them from attacking you....

Wasn't the US involvment in WWII preventative in nature? The German's didnt attack them specifically.The Germans did attack their allies though.Didn't the US come to the aid of GB and Western Europe to prevent the spread of the nazi regime across the region? Wasn't the Korean war preventative in nature?

All war is wrong.Terrorism is equally so.

 

[humanbeing]

Re: WTC Deaths Apparently justified according to Israeli Log

Still don't get it. Unlike you I am capable of thinking within more than one vein.

Throwing the mud around again, are we?

The fact that I merely questioned the attack on UN staff does not mean that I am making the statement you asserted.

Note what I actually said though. When you say 'It would be a brutally effective way of dragging them into the conflict.', I disagree because of the way the UN is designed, what with veto powers and all. I wanted to see if you knew this (an obvious thing that doesn't require being an expert).

How did I assert something differently from this?

It merely means I am open minded and do not profess to be an Israeli or Arab politician or general.

Okay, sure! Hey, I do not profess to be an Israeli or Arab politician or general either! I'm open-minded too!

Are you an expert on Arab-Israeli realations? We are all arm chair quarterbacking here. Including you. And yes I am aware how the UN works. Am I an expert no. Are you? The attack on the UN staff did however put more pressure on the US and Israel. Which could in turn result in the UN acting with the approval of the Security Council.

...unlikely. Again, take a look at the Security council and UN in general, and the way they are designed, what with veto powers and all. Remember that the US is blocking the UN from taking any real action at all.

The countries are bent on Israel's destruction. To say that they would be attacking it left right and centre is illogical. Even those countries are aware of that. They are out gunned and the US is on Israel's side. Apparently military tacticts is not your forté. The arab countries have vowed to drive Israel into the sea.

Military tactics has little to do with what we are talking about. It is more about trying to get you to judge one thing on the same grounds as you judge another thing. This is about us versus them, and trying to seperate yourself from that idea for a better look.

Israel and US are the obvious powerhouses in the region. If reality were different, and maybe Argentina (or any other country) was the world power sponsoring state terrorism and what not, then things would be different but should still be judged on similar grounds. Back to our talk about the US suppressing Canada and Canadian militants firing rockets at the States; maybe in this world imaginary world, Argentina is blocking the UN from taking action and trying to resolve the conflict between Canada and the US. My take is that we should treat such things as this, in a similar way as we treat other things, like the issues with Israel-Palestina and Lebanon. Wouldn't it be wrong for Argentina to do such a thing?

You can quote Chomsky or Mohammed or Abraham all you want. You can't reason with terrorists.Period.You either kill them or capture them before they strike. This Prevents them from attacking you....

Well, it did make a point about preventive war, or preventative measures, but anyhow...

When you kill others in the process, and suppress people, perhaps it creates even more terrorists in the process? Especially when you are blatantly bombing residential areas in your attempts at killing them..

Another quote: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

I might agree in ways about not being able to reason with terrorists. For example, it is often hard to reason with the US or Israel when they are doing things that could define them as terrorists. Don't believe me, look at the UN again. They have a tough time reasoning with the US unless the US gets its way. Still, I won't prescribe to killing them, or being killed yourself.

If a body like the UN was willing to act to stop this (but held back by a veto), then wouldn't you agree that was a good idea?

 

[SilentSwirl]

Re: WTC Deaths Apparently justified according to Israeli Log

So let me get this straight: Last week when Israel bombed a town and killed over 60 civilians, most of whom were children, they justified the deaths by saying that the civilians were warned ahead of time and that they shouldn't have been there???

Now lets take the same insensitive approach to the World Trade Center victims. In 1993, a bomb was set off at the base of one of the towers. The buildings have been the topic of proposed attacks ever since. The buildings were a symbol of U.S. economic might and were a very likely target. Therefore, it seems like the victims were warned -- they should have known better -- they should have found different jobs. Looks like their deaths are justified as well according to Israeli logic, eh?

The moronic premiss of this fallacious analogy would only work if, on 8/11, the WTC was being used as a missile launch-pad, from which the families of the terrorists flying the airliners were being attacked and killed.

 

[Caleb-Dain Matton]

Re: WTC Deaths Apparently justified according to Israeli Log

So let me get this straight: Last week when Israel bombed a town and killed over 60 civilians, most of whom were children, they justified the deaths by saying that the civilians were warned ahead of time and that they shouldn't have been there???

Now lets take the same insensitive approach to the World Trade Center victims. In 1993, a bomb was set off at the base of one of the towers. The buildings have been the topic of proposed attacks ever since. The buildings were a symbol of U.S. economic might and were a very likely target. Therefore, it seems like the victims were warned -- they should have known better -- they should have found different jobs. Looks like their deaths are justified as well according to Israeli logic, eh?

The moronic premiss of this fallacious analogy would only work if, on 8/11, the WTC was being used as a missile launch-pad, from which the families of the terrorists flying the airliners were being attacked and killed.

Naive. Obviously the Right can't look outside the box. Reason 2,392 why the Left are the creative humans. The Right wouldn't know logic unless it blew itself up in front of them.

 

[Colpy]

RE: WTC Deaths Apparently justified according to Israeli Log

Geez, ya know, we rightist might not all be up for some a' them prizes a' the No Bell or nutting, but ya know, we ain't found oil in Lebanon yet either.

Heh Heh

 

[thomaska]

Re: WTC Deaths Apparently justified according to Israeli Log

So let me get this straight: Last week when Israel bombed a town and killed over 60 civilians, most of whom were children, they justified the deaths by saying that the civilians were warned ahead of time and that they shouldn't have been there???

Now lets take the same insensitive approach to the World Trade Center victims. In 1993, a bomb was set off at the base of one of the towers. The buildings have been the topic of proposed attacks ever since. The buildings were a symbol of U.S. economic might and were a very likely target. Therefore, it seems like the victims were warned -- they should have known better -- they should have found different jobs. Looks like their deaths are justified as well according to Israeli logic, eh?

The moronic premiss of this fallacious analogy would only work if, on 8/11, the WTC was being used as a missile launch-pad, from which the families of the terrorists flying the airliners were being attacked and killed.

Naive. Obviously the Right can't look outside the box. Reason 2,392 why the Left are the creative humans. The Right wouldn't know logic unless it blew itself up in front of them.

Usually the only thing blowing up or trying to blow up in front of us is islamic extremists... 8) ...

I know you'll reply but you'll have to excuse my silence as I will be defending freedom for a few days, fighting the terrorists over there so we don't have to blow your backyard up over here...but I don't guess you'll ever understand that logic ...

 

[Caleb-Dain Matton]

Re: WTC Deaths Apparently justified according to Israeli Log

So let me get this straight: Last week when Israel bombed a town and killed over 60 civilians, most of whom were children, they justified the deaths by saying that the civilians were warned ahead of time and that they shouldn't have been there???

Now lets take the same insensitive approach to the World Trade Center victims. In 1993, a bomb was set off at the base of one of the towers. The buildings have been the topic of proposed attacks ever since. The buildings were a symbol of U.S. economic might and were a very likely target. Therefore, it seems like the victims were warned -- they should have known better -- they should have found different jobs. Looks like their deaths are justified as well according to Israeli logic, eh?

The moronic premiss of this fallacious analogy would only work if, on 8/11, the WTC was being used as a missile launch-pad, from which the families of the terrorists flying the airliners were being attacked and killed.

Naive. Obviously the Right can't look outside the box. Reason 2,392 why the Left are the creative humans. The Right wouldn't know logic unless it blew itself up in front of them.

Usually the only thing blowing up or trying to blow up in front of us is islamic extremists... 8) ...

I know you'll reply but you'll have to excuse my silence as I will be defending freedom for a few days, fighting the terrorists over there so we don't have to blow your backyard up over here...but I don't guess you'll ever understand that logic ...

Sure you will. Good luck with your losing fight! If you did do anything useful you would have to find new enemies. Remember Communism? Then you dabble with "terrorism". I imagine next it will be the Mexicans, right? Looooserrrs!

 

[Toro]

Re: WTC Deaths Apparently justified according to Israeli Log

Sure you will. Good luck with your losing fight! If you did do anything useful you would have to find new enemies. Remember Communism?

Sure do.

You lost!

 

[Caleb-Dain Matton]

Re: WTC Deaths Apparently justified according to Israeli Log

Sure you will. Good luck with your losing fight! If you did do anything useful you would have to find new enemies. Remember Communism?

Sure do.

You lost!

Didn't know it was a war -- it was an idea that the United States of Hypocrisy was adverse to. Remember, it's called freedom of ideas?

 

[Toro]

Re: WTC Deaths Apparently justified according to Israeli Log

Sure you will. Good luck with your losing fight! If you did do anything useful you would have to find new enemies. Remember Communism?

Sure do.

You lost!

Didn't know it was a war -- it was an idea that the United States of Hypocrisy was adverse to. Remember, it's called freedom of ideas?

Yeah, and you lost.

 

[Kreskin]

Re: WTC Deaths Apparently justified according to Israeli Log

Sure you will. Good luck with your losing fight! If you did do anything useful you would have to find new enemies. Remember Communism?

Sure do.

You lost!

Didn't know it was a war -- it was an idea that the United States of Hypocrisy was adverse to. Remember, it's called freedom of ideas?

Yeah, and you lost.

That war was more of a "Just Say No" program.

 

[Kreskin]

RE: WTC Deaths Apparently justified according to Israeli Log

Soviet communism was defeated without firing a single bullet. Reagan must've been a left wing pinko doing all that diplomacy stuff.

 

[Caleb-Dain Matton]

Re: WTC Deaths Apparently justified according to Israeli Log

Sure you will. Good luck with your losing fight! If you did do anything useful you would have to find new enemies. Remember Communism?

Sure do.

You lost!

Didn't know it was a war -- it was an idea that the United States of Hypocrisy was adverse to. Remember, it's called freedom of ideas?

Yeah, and you lost.

Glad you think that the shooting down of alternative econmic ideas is a good thing. It's kind of tyranical, no?

 

[Toro]

Re: WTC Deaths Apparently justified according to Israeli Log

Glad you think that the shooting down of alternative econmic ideas is a good thing. It's kind of tyranical, no?

No.

Remember, it's called freedom of ideas?

What is it? Freedom or ideas or "tyranny"?

 

[Caleb-Dain Matton]

Re: WTC Deaths Apparently justified according to Israeli Log

Glad you think that the shooting down of alternative econmic ideas is a good thing. It's kind of tyranical, no?

No.

Remember, it's called freedom of ideas?

What is it? Freedom or ideas or "tyanny"?

You are making less and less sense as you spin around, sorry.

 

[Toro]

Re: WTC Deaths Apparently justified according to Israeli Log

You are making less and less sense as you spin around, sorry.

Of course it doesn't make sense when you're on the losing side.