Why We should Say "No NDP".

[Snort It!]

Why We Should Say "No NDP" By: R. Rados

To the average liberal teen, fresh out of highschool; and to the average advocate of civil freedoms, the NDP seem like a fit choice. For those cynical and contemptuous towards capitalism, the NDP choice is likewise. The true ideology and stubborn misdirection that leads the NDP, is taken for granted far too often each time an 'X' is put beside an NDP candidate's name. That's not to say that everyone who votes NDP is ignorant; we can accept the fact that socialist ideals run rampant in Canada, but when people are given such little choice as they are when it comes to civil liberty, they tend to jump boat with little hesitation or thought.

Below is a list of reasons why all of us should say "No" to the NDP in every Federal and Provincial election to come. It is a reflection of why so many ignorant folk actually say "Yes". It's a list for everyone.....with no bias, and no plugs for any particular party; just simple reasons why any liberal or libertarian voter should stay away from the NDP.

1. Unionized workers have long supported the NDP, but with little regard for the amount of corruption within those unions. Capitalism is denounced in the socialist/labour community as a corrupt force in politics, and corporations are considered to be the puppet masters that pull our politician's strings. Little attention seems to be put on the fact that politicians and union leaders (like CEO's of corporations) are just as capable of the same levels of corruption, and crooked business dealing. Unions are just as much about advancing their own "special interests" as the corporations are. Let us not forget Manitoba's Crocus Fund.

2. Losing Canada's public healthcare frightens most Canadians, even the conservative voters. For the past few years, more people have been turning to the NDP to preserve a completely free Medicare system. The strict idea that healthcare must be free for all, without any cost, seems to supercede the rationale that has proven that a 100% public healthcare system, that is expected to run efficiently, cannot possibly sustain itself much longer. Canadians seem to be so frightened that they will lose their free coverage, that they seem to completely disregard the facts. The facts are simple: public healthcare, the way it is now, is not efficient. Billions of dollars worth of taxpayer's money is spent year after year trying to sustain a public sector that is failing its patients. The cost to support a 100% free healthcare plan for all Canadians is staggering. If the current system doesn't bankrupt our country, it will implode further, and face the potential of being lost entirely. A two tier system has proven to maintain levels of public healthcare, while still preserving astounding levels of healthcare for low income families. Furthermore, allowing those who can afford it, to pay private sectors for their own surgeries and treatments, would free space on public waiting lists for those who cannot afford their own treatment.

3. Many who advocate freedom and rights, don't seem to understand that private wealth and ownership are also fundamental rights that all people should share. With a stable government, led by ethics and good policy, capitalist corruption can be stopped without compromising the rights to property and free enterprise. If all of our politicians continue to advance the interests of the corporations, rather than the interests and freedoms of the people, then that is when capitalism will fail entirely. We can't blame capitalism and corporations; we can only blame the governments that are paid by them. A socialist government would act as one big corporation, with no competitive elements that would otherwise allow choice. The freedom to choose where to send your money, does not exist in a socialist or communist government. Within a free capitalist society, composed of hundreds of private companies, citizens are given a broad choice as to where they wish to invest their hard earned money. Citizens are encouraged to become entrepreneurs, to build their own wealth, and to deal with eachother in a civilized manner, as individual and sovereign business people. The government should only act to protect such rights, and the lives of its tax paying citizens, through a just system.

<Edited to remove website addy spam. Cosmo>

 

[Cosmo]

Snort It ... I removed the web addresses from your post. Canadian Content isn't just a place for you fly into at election time and promote your website. You were here last March as "PJ The Hedge Hog" offering up the same rhetoric in a single post then never posting again.

To be clear, this has nothing at all to do with your political opinions but with your usage of this forum as a way to get free advertising. I left the opinions intact so that the forum members can debate them if they so choose. I suspect you won't be around to participate, though.

Cosmo

 

[Reverend Blair]

I'll debate this infantile and shallow dross.

Unionized workers have long supported the NDP, but with little regard for the amount of corruption within those unions.

Not all unions are corrupt, very few union workers are corrupt, the unions do control the NDP, nor does the NDP control the unions. The entire premise put forth by R. Rados here is a misrepresentation of the facts based more on 1970's gangster movies and libelous rumours started by those who would take worker's rights than anything else.

The very idea of this point is corrupt because it is based in a lie and seeks to spread the misunderstanding caused by that lie.

Losing Canada's public healthcare frightens most Canadians, even the conservative voters.

There are so many untruths and misconceptions in this point that it's hard to know where to begin. I guess I'll start by trying to quit giggling at R. Rados' attempts at spin.

The truth is that there is no indication that a private system will reduce costs. In fact study after study has shown just the opposite. There will be more red-tape to deal with. More office workers and more paper pushers to pay. We will also have to provide a profit for private insurance companies and their investors. That's on top of all of the present costs.

Study after study has shown that private systems cost the users more.

There is also the myth that Canada can use countries other than the United States as a model. Our reality is that we once we head toward a private system, we will quickly be stuck in the same failed system that allows 40 million Americans to go without health care each year.

We signed a little deal with the United States called NAFTA a few years back, you see. Because of the terms of that agreement, if we turn health care into a commodity by allowing for-profit insurers into the country or allowing the expansion of private providers, we can be sued under Chapter 11.

This is the same provision that forced us to continue allowing MMT in gasoline and pay the Ethyl Corp a multi-million dollar settlement. It is also the same provision that UPS is suing Canada Post under. Don't think for a minute that the large US insurerers and providers won't sue to get control of a market of 30 million people.

Many who advocate freedom and rights, don't seem to understand that private wealth and ownership are also fundamental rights that all people should share.

This is just an outright lie...a scare tactic by a desperate and inept fool with no understanding of politics and the mental agility of a goldfish. It has the stench of McCarthyism about it.

The NDP promote social democracy. I live under an NDP government, yet I own my own house, my own car, and make my own living. We have corporations large and small operating in the province of Manitoba. The same goes for Saskatchewan. I know that because I grew up there and still have many friends and relatives in the province.

Oddly enough, if you look at Manitoba and Saskatchewan, you will see that not only are wealth and ownership not at risk under NDP governments, but they are better fiscal managers that their conservative counterparts and have made way for more wealth.

Tell me, R. Rados from Regina, are you old enough to remember the Devine government? They weren't just crooks, though several of them went to jail for their thievery, they were also terrible fiscal managers. They almost drove the province into bankruptcy. They took a province that was in the black and pushed it so far into the red that their inadequacies are still being paid for.

I remember the Saskatchewan that Mr. Devine and his friend in Ottawa, Mr. Mulroney, created all too well. There were no jobs. People, rural and urban, were forced into bankruptcy. Profitable crown corporations that the people of Saskatchewan had paid to create and were enjoying a return on were sold off at fire-sale prices to Devine's good buddies in big business while people with small businesses went broke. The roads fell apart, the infrastructure was dismantled, the province was nearly destroyed.

Now you could say that was just the Devine government. You'd be lying if you did though. The present day conservatives, both as the Saskatchewan Party and the Conservative Party of Canada, speak the same misbegotten rhetoric as Devine did and would follow the same path.

 

[MMMike]

There is also the myth that Canada can use countries other than the United States as a model. Our reality is that we once we head toward a private system, we will quickly be stuck in the same failed system that allows 40 million Americans to go without health care each year.

Instead we will stay stuck in our own failed system with runaway costs, inferior care, and people dying on waiting lists... all in the name of equality.

We signed a little deal with the United States called NAFTA a few years back, you see. Because of the terms of that agreement, if we turn health care into a commodity by allowing for-profit insurers into the country or allowing the expansion of private providers, we can be sued under Chapter 11.

Allowing private healthcare delivery while maintaining our public, single payer system is a necessary step in the right direction. No private insurance, no extra bureacracy. And if the US firms want to come up and compete for that business, let 'em come.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Instead we will stay stuck in our own failed system with runaway costs, inferior care, and people dying on waiting lists... all in the name of equality.

Our per capita costs are far lower than those in the United States and would remain so even if we increased spending dramatically. Increasing spending to increase the level of available care would not make our system more expensive than most European systems if done properly would actually reduce costs in many areas of healthcare.

The care we provide is not inferior. We have the latest technologies and our healthcare professionals use the latest techniques. In many areas, such as the over-prescription of medications and the performance of unnecessary procedures we are far ahead of the United States. We can solve the waiting list problem without having Canadians dying or being pushed into bankruptcy because of a loack of private insurance.

Allowing private healthcare delivery while maintaining our public, single payer system is a necessary step in the right direction.

We have that now...single payer health care. What has to be stopped is the practice of being paid privately. That includes extra billing and private clinics that also take funding from our current system.

You are arguing for the NDP platform, MMMikey.

 

[no1important]

RE: Why We should Say "No

1. Unionized workers have long supported the NDP, but with little regard for the amount of corruption within those unions.

Not all union members vote NDP. I am not sure what the number is but it varies from region to region. I know when I was plant chairman at the local mill in Fort ST. John Hardley anyone voted for anyone but the Reform/Alliance/Conservatives/Social credit. Those parties always got in Federally and Provincially in that area. Down here on the coast union members voting NDP is considerably higher.

But the BC NDP loosened ties with big labour.

B.C.'s NDP votes to loosen grip of labour unions

A teaser:

VANCOUVER — British Columbia's New Democrats voted Saturday to loosen ties with the labour movement, a move NDP Leader Carole James said will ultimately strengthen the party.

Labour will still align itself with the New Democratic Party in B.C., but unions can no longer bring bulk votes to party conventions, she said.

Delegates at the NDP's convention overwhelmingly supported a one-member, one-vote resolution that James said ensures every New Democrat has an equal say in the party's business. [/end of teaser]

The rest of your post (actually all of it) is pure garbage.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Why We should Say "No

He's spewing a lot of the same crap that Conservatives in Saskatchewan do, No1. The truth is that they did such a bad job provincially that they've been forced out of power for a very long time, even with a name change, and they are losing support for the federal Conservatives because their MPs have accomplished nothing for the people of Saskatchewan.

 

[Colpy]

Actually, I would agree that the NDP's attachment to Labour is not an issue. It is out in the wide open, so people know who they are voting for, so what?

I do agree the NDP has lost it over Health Care. As far as I have read, single-source health care is standard in three countries.....North Korea, Cuba, and Canada. North Korea is a mess. It may even work fairly well in Cuba, but here...........

Seven or 8 percent increases yearly in medicare are unsustainable. So let the rich pay. Use the closed operating rooms and MRIs. Shorten the waiting list for the rest of us. Let insurance pay.

Get more doctors out there (if you don't already have a GP in NB, Good Luck.....you'll need it)

I mean the vast majority of western developed nations have parallel systems. Why not us?

And one more thing.......want Medicare to be sustainable?.......Pay off the debt as fast as humanly possible. Screw tax relief.

Interest rates may not stay low forever, and we could easily wind up with 25 or 30 percent of gov't income going to pay the interest on debt. All those lovely new social programs? Bye-bye.

Time to pay it now, while times are good and interest rates low.

 

[Finder]

Thanks "Snort it" for slapping all the NDP members and supporters in the face and telling us what we are. Your ignorance truly must be bliss. Or at least you have been propagandized by the populist-right?

 

[Snort It!]

Healthcare is expensive, free healthcare is a fallacy and the only fools that stick to it, are idealogues like yourselves. TC Douglas is dead....and people are getting sicker on waiting lists.

Your moderator bashing as been deleted and posted in the moderator fourm.
Your advertising belongs in the advertising section of this forum, otherwise pay for your own advertising like other people do.
If you have a problems with the way cosmos approached you, than put in writing to the administrator of this site, either as snort it or hedgehog, whom ever you are at the time.

Feel free to PM me. Cosmo

 

[Calberty]

I won't vote NDP for a variety of reasons. One is that the NDPers are supporting a THIEF for election, Svend Robinson. This is a slap in the face to the millions of workers who put in an 'honest' day's work and refrain from STEALING.

A vote for the NDP is a support for THIEVERY.

 

[Karlin]

I posted a debate with an outline of reasons why not to voye NDP, and expected a resonable discussion. Instead I got name calling.
You can go ahead and delete my account.

Well too bad you are gone, you could read your hypocracy over "name-calling" here, with these name-callings as evidence:
1]Actually, a note to this board's infantile and bias administrator
2] free healthcare is a fallacy and only fools stick to it
3]your little Soviet Canookistan paradise

But to stick to important things,
a] the NDP has made moves to distance itself from Unions where corruption exists...

b]Healthcare costs have more to do with the dastrdly "PHARMACEUTICAL corporate medical practises" than whether or not it is paid for by public or private sources.

c]Private Wealth as an inherant RIGHT??? - above all rights to clean water and food, shelter, necessities of life? Does it include the RIGHT to cause GLOBAWL WARMING [for without that, if they "cleaned up their messes", they would not be as wealthy!!]
Is it also a RIGHT for the Elites to have 80+% of the worlds wealth tied up in the hands of just 5% of the people? If you can't see something wrong with that, considering that the money comes from the hard work and economic participation of the poor and middle class in the first place....

So its obvious you are an Elite NWO Globalist MINION - one who does their work for them but without being a part of their group per se...like the millions of brainwashed people who support the Elite's domination campaing by parroting their propaganda.

No, you didn't make a great impression here Snort.
And that NAME!! - is drug abuse a JOKE to you???

But stay - better here than where you might be taken seriously...
Karlin

 

[peapod]

Snort it/hedgehog,

Your moderator bashing as been deleted and posted in the moderator fourm.
Your advertising belongs in the advertising section of this forum, otherwise pay for your own advertising like other people do.
If you have a problems with the way cosmos approached you, than put in writing to the administrator of this site, either as snort it or hedgehog, whom ever you are at the time.

 

[Finder]

Re: RE: Why We should Say "No NDP".

I won't vote NDP for a variety of reasons. One is that the NDPers are supporting a THIEF for election, Svend Robinson. This is a slap in the face to the millions of workers who put in an 'honest' day's work and refrain from STEALING.

A vote for the NDP is a support for THIEVERY.

I won't even respond to "Snort it" remarks as he has an agenda of some sort.

True I think the NDP shouldn't had allowed him to run as I think the bigger problem is that he has a big problem. However, since then he has paid his due to society and has had an active roll in the community. However since the person you are talking about is not running in my riding I have no problem support my NDP canidate or the NDP. But I can see why you would have reservations voting for him as I would too. Election day will tell the tail in your riding if the people have forgiven him for what he has done or if he did and elect him or not give him a chance at all. It's your ridings dession to make and I do think the NDP made a mistake in allowing him to run, but everyone deserves a second chance I guess. *shrugs*

Second thought. I think if he was in my riding I wouldn't vote for him. But thats my opinion.

 

[peapod]

Calberty,
What is the purpose of posting the same thing over and over again, there are conservatives here that add and have something to say, like MMM mike and colpy. They are not trolling , but having debates. Your continue to post the same thing over and over again. Cut it out, your trolling, contribute to the thread or go away.


"I won't vote NDP for a variety of reasons. One is that the NDPers are supporting a THIEF for election, Svend Robinson. This is a slap in the face to the millions of workers who put in an 'honest' day's work and refrain from STEALING.

A vote for the NDP is a support for THIEVERY."

You have said this how many times???? Please contribute something other than the same 4 sentence mantra.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Calberty just got influenced by the yellow journalism in MacLean's, Peapod. It's too bd that the neo-cons decided to turn a once decent magazine into a print version of Fox News, but that's the way they do things.

I do agree the NDP has lost it over Health Care. As far as I have read, single-source health care is standard in three countries.....North Korea, Cuba, and Canada. North Korea is a mess. It may even work fairly well in Cuba, but here.

I suggest that you do some research, Colpy. Our system is not the same as North Kopea's or Cuba's. The NDP have no plans to make it the same either. I trust that now that you understand that, you will no longer continue to spread that particular misconception.

Seven or 8 percent increases yearly in medicare are unsustainable.

The present rate of increases is to catch up with the extreme underfunding that occurred in the past. Once the catching up is done, the rate of increases will decline.

So let the rich pay. Use the closed operating rooms and MRIs.

You bet. The rich should pay. Let's start by making the rich corporations pay, then move on to their millionaire and billionaire owners and CEOs. That will provide plenty of money for medicare.

Shorten the waiting list for the rest of us.

Maybe you haven't been paying attention...waiting lists are getting shorter.

Get more doctors out there

The doctor shortage is largely the result of conservative cuts to education. If we want more doctors, we'd best keep the Conservatives out of power.

I mean the vast majority of western developed nations have parallel systems. Why not us?

The USA and NAFTA. Plus, most of us don't want it.

 

[Hunter]

RE: Why We should Say "No

who cares about the NDP even the leader admits that he cant win the election. the NDP with small town roots has largely become an urban left extremist party. im young and supposed to be in my "liberal" stage but even i can see the party for who they are. NDP supporters are generally kids out of high school or in college, and older people who are failures in life and want the government to take care of them.

 

[zenfisher]

"Older people who are failures in life."
Not people who have spent all their lives supporting this system.The ones that allowed you to have the breaks that you have today. The Ones that built the infrastructure of Canada to allow you to have all the advantages a modern society brings.

 

[Hunter]

RE: Why We should Say "No

<snip>
i have respect for my elders more then you "gangster wannabees" in seattle. what i said was that NDP supporters are usually people who have failed in like and want the gov to take care of them. not they dont want lower taxes...because they dont pay taxes, they are more worried about gay people than the hardworking people who grow their food. sure there are probably a few respectable candidates when compared to liberals, but look at their leader.

Hunter ... don't be an ass. Debate with dignity and without insult or go away. You've only been here a short time and your attitude is already stinking up the place. If you don't like the opinions of the people here, either discuss them like a rational adult or go over to the joke section and work on your sense of humour.
Cosmo

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Why We should Say "No

You have a lot to learn about the NDP, Hunter. I suggest you leave Red Deer as soon as possible and spend some time in more enlightened parts of the country.