Why Conservatives Should Thank Chuck Cadman

[bluealberta]

DM says:

Blue, in reference to Brian and Scandals. Canada has been up for sale since 1988 and the Liberals join in on that and went even further. I hate the both for what they have done. As far as I am concerned the whole lot should be dragged out into the street shot and pissed on and not necessarily in that order. Harper is very much Mulroney spawn and you could be the pope himself you still wouldn't be able to convince me of the 'good deeds' that he will do, I will never give scum like that the benefit of the doubt. Canada needs leaders with vision, not someone who will gladly sell this country out from under us.Don't believe he will do it? Read this article. Then tell me thatthe CFR task force, that has Harpers ear, will not be implemented. There are allies and then there are collaborators, fortress America will destroy what we have as a country.

You call it selling out, I call it getting into the world market instead of being isolationist. Virtually every economic study done on free trade, other than those with a left leaning bent, have said that free trade has been a huge benefit to Canada. And you just confirmed all my previous allegations against you in that you are totally inflexible and intolerant in your views. If you think that these people are honestly out to destroy the country, then I feel sorry for you. And as far as I am concerned, the left wing and Liberals in this country have systematically destroyed this country and its international reputation over the last 25 years, starting with Trudeau.

 

[Derry McKinney]

RE: Why Conservatives Sho

I never said that, BA. Scape said that. I agree with him, but I never said it.

Your assertion that we were isolationist before, or that we would become isolationist without NAFTA is ridiculous. If anything, concetrating our trade with one or two countries makes us more isolationist, not less.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Just because the Liberals didn't step down doesn't mean they were not guilty. It just meant they have no integrity or ethics.

Nor does stepping down make you any less guilty...

Why step down if there was no wrong-doing...that they were exonerated means nothing to me other than that they were wiggly worms that shook the hook...

The same will happen with the Liberals...no matter how guilty they are...

 

[bluealberta]

Just because the Liberals didn't step down doesn't mean they were not guilty. It just meant they have no integrity or ethics.

Nor does stepping down make you any less guilty...

Why step down if there was no wrong-doing...that they were exonerated means nothing to me other than that they were wiggly worms that shook the hook...

The same will happen with the Liberals...no matter how guilty they are...

They stepped down in order to let the process run its course, as ethical and moral individuals do. That of course lets the Liberals off the hook, I guess.

So by your wiggly hook logic, if the Gomery inquiry and the forensic audit provide proof that the LIBs are corrupt, lie, and steal, did the conservatives wiggle that hook too?

 

[Vanni Fucci]

So by your wiggly hook logic, if the Gomery inquiry and the forensic audit provide proof that the LIBs are corrupt, lie, and steal, did the conservatives wiggle that hook too?

WTF are you talking about blue???

I believe that no upper echelon Liberal will see the inside of a cell over Sponsorship...the evidence will just not be there...

What hook the Cons would have shook in that event, I have no idea...

 

[Derry McKinney]

RE: Why Conservatives Sho

The conservatives were clearly implicated by Guite. Harper was part of that conservative machine...there is no escaping that.

Every time you point at the Liberals, you are pointing at yourselves, Blue. You are oppositie sides of the same coin. You are the two halves of The Corporate Party of Canada. The corruption is deep and widespread and the Harperites wallow in it just as much as the Martinites.

 

[bluealberta]

So by your wiggly hook logic, if the Gomery inquiry and the forensic audit provide proof that the LIBs are corrupt, lie, and steal, did the conservatives wiggle that hook too?

WTF are you talking about blue???

I believe that no upper echelon Liberal will see the inside of a cell over Sponsorship...the evidence will just not be there...

What hook the Cons would have shook in that event, I have no idea...

You insinuated in a previous post that the charges against Mulroney ministers that were dropped were somehow due to influences, or 'wiggly hook (your words). I was just wondering how you were going to blame the conservatives if the liberals are found to be guilty of thieving and corruption in the Gomery inquiry? After all, that seems to be the sport of the left, blame the conservatives for anything the left perceives to be wrong, with or without facts of justification. :twisted:

 

[Vanni Fucci]

So by your wiggly hook logic, if the Gomery inquiry and the forensic audit provide proof that the LIBs are corrupt, lie, and steal, did the conservatives wiggle that hook too?

WTF are you talking about blue???

I believe that no upper echelon Liberal will see the inside of a cell over Sponsorship...the evidence will just not be there...

What hook the Cons would have shook in that event, I have no idea...

You insinuated in a previous post that the charges against Mulroney ministers that were dropped were somehow due to influences, or 'wiggly hook (your words). I was just wondering how you were going to blame the conservatives if the liberals are found to be guilty of thieving and corruption in the Gomery inquiry? After all, that seems to be the sport of the left, blame the conservatives for anything the left perceives to be wrong, with or without facts of justification. :twisted:

If any Liberal is brought up on charges relating to the Sponsorship scandal, they will shake the hook...just like their Conservative counterparts were able to...

There is no hook to shake for the Conservatives as a result of any Gomery testimony...yet...

 

[bluealberta]

So by your wiggly hook logic, if the Gomery inquiry and the forensic audit provide proof that the LIBs are corrupt, lie, and steal, did the conservatives wiggle that hook too?

WTF are you talking about blue???

I believe that no upper echelon Liberal will see the inside of a cell over Sponsorship...the evidence will just not be there...

What hook the Cons would have shook in that event, I have no idea...

You insinuated in a previous post that the charges against Mulroney ministers that were dropped were somehow due to influences, or 'wiggly hook (your words). I was just wondering how you were going to blame the conservatives if the liberals are found to be guilty of thieving and corruption in the Gomery inquiry? After all, that seems to be the sport of the left, blame the conservatives for anything the left perceives to be wrong, with or without facts of justification. :twisted:

If any Liberal is brought up on charges relating to the Sponsorship scandal, they will shake the hook...just like their Conservative counterparts were able to...

There is no hook to shake for the Conservatives as a result of any Gomery testimony...yet...

Uh oh. The world is coming to an end. VANNI AND I AGREE ON SOMETHING!!! 8O :twisted:

 

[Walrus]

AH!!

The political machinations of minority government remind me of 1974 when the Conservatives were prevented from defeating the Liberals by NDP support. What was the result in that election? Oh yes, David Lewis saw his party reduced from 31 to 16 seats as voters saw no diference between the Liberals and the NDP and returned Trudeau to a majority government. Maybe the Conservative really should thank Cadman for preventing an election now, especially if it means the NDP continue to go to bed with the corrupt Liberals and ensure their future banishment to the political wilderness. The only unfortunate thing is that the Liberals will probably get another majority and Canadians will suffer through another 4 years of Liberal porkbarrelling.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: Why Conservatives Sho

The conservatives were clearly implicated by Guite. Harper was part of that conservative machine...there is no escaping that.

Every time you point at the Liberals, you are pointing at yourselves, Blue. You are oppositie sides of the same coin. You are the two halves of The Corporate Party of Canada. The corruption is deep and widespread and the Harperites wallow in it just as much as the Martinites.

How can they wallow in it when they have not been in power for over 12 years? Let's talk present okay? The CPC has been in existence for a little over a year. Yes, they are right wing, and yes, they have parts of the old Reform and parts of the old Conservatives. The Martin/Chretien Family has been in power for over 12 years, and yes, they wallow in it, but to accuse a party that has not been in power of corruption is ludicrous, and puts a really remarkable spin on things: "The Libs ain't so bad, the Conservatives are just as corrupt" which is totally untrue, and with no recent facts to present to back it up.

 

[bluealberta]

AH!!

The political machinations of minority government remind me of 1974 when the Conservatives were prevented from defeating the Liberals by NDP support. What was the result in that election? Oh yes, David Lewis saw his party reduced from 31 to 16 seats as voters saw no diference between the Liberals and the NDP and returned Trudeau to a majority government. Maybe the Conservative really should thank Cadman for preventing an election now, especially if it means the NDP continue to go to bed with the corrupt Liberals and ensure their future banishment to the political wilderness. The only unfortunate thing is that the Liberals will probably get another majority and Canadians will suffer through another 4 years of Liberal porkbarrelling.

Walrus, you make an excellent point. There was a stat in the paper the other day that showed that everytime an NDP party supported a minority government, the next election they lost seats due to the reasons you give. I think part of this is because Canadians get scared to death when they think of the cost of an NDP platform, something that I think is starting to show now.

I find it interesting too that although most of the people on this forum despise the US, their leaders, and their political system, we in Canada are now in the midst of an American style election campaign for the next 10 months or so, as opposed to the usual five or six weeks. Ironic, I suppose that the NDP has put us in this position by propping up the Liberals, yet the NDP is extremely anti-US.

Personally, I hope that the upcoming forensic audit shows that the LIberal party received kickbacks, and that both Chretien and Martin were involved. This, followed by the Gomery report to confirm all the sworn testimony should put the LIberals out of our misery for some time to come. If this happens, and the Liberals still get re-elected, then I fear the future of Canada is doomed. :twisted:

 

[Scape]

You call it selling out, I call it getting into the world market instead of being isolationist. Virtually every economic study done on free trade, other than those with a left leaning bent, have said that free trade has been a huge benefit to Canada.

Its impact on workers in all three nations

The authors, Dungan and Murphy (1999), found that, while business sector exports grew quickly, import growth also kept pace. At the same time, the import content per unit of exports also grew markedly, while the domestic content per unit of exports fell.

What did this mean for jobs? Employment (direct and indirect) in export industries rose from 19.6% of total business sector employment in 1989 to 28.3% in 1997. However, the rapid rise in imports displaced (or destroyed) even more employment. The job-displacing effect of imports rose steadily from an equivalent of 21.1% of total business employment in 1989 to 32.7% in 1997. The authors conclude: "imports are displacing 'relatively' more jobs than exports are adding" (Dungan and Murphy 1999).

What did this mean in terms of actual jobs created and destroyed? It is a simple matter to derive these numbers from Dungan and Murphy's data (see Figure 3-B). The result is striking. Between 1989 and 1997, 870,700 export jobs were created, but during the same period 1,147,100 jobs were destroyed by imports. Thus, Canada's trade boom resulted in a net destruction of 276,000 jobs.

And you just confirmed all my previous allegations against you in that you are totally inflexible and intolerant in your views. If you think that these people are honestly out to destroy the country, then I feel sorry for you. And as far as I am concerned, the left wing and Liberals in this country have systematically destroyed this country and its international reputation over the last 25 years, starting with Trudeau.

Explain to me how having over half of our remaining manufacturing base now foreign owned give us an 'edge'. Explain to me how it is getting into the world market by signing on to terms that we MUST provide 2/3rd of our oil and gas production exclusively to the US irregardless if we can or can not meet our own domestic market 1st. Explain how from June 30, 1985 to June 30, 2001 over 13,000 Canadian companies have been sold to foreigners and the dollar figure of companies sold from 1999 was DOUBLE of 1998, itself a record. Explain how it is an advantage that US shareholders can sue any and all government jurisdictions from municipal all the way up to federal if they pass any law that interferes with their profits such as trying to secure our water, communications or transportation makes Canada an investment choice and not a takeover target.

Are you completely out of your mind Blue? Are you not concerned with the loss of our destiny? It is only a matter of time before companies like Shaw and Rodgers are taken over by conglomerates.

How about the CNR, majority US owned? CP has been split into 5 companies to 'maximize the profits of stakeholder' well there is no stake holders only shareholders and under 'National treatment clause' US shareholders have the same rights as a Canadian born citizen. Where does THAT fit in to be compete globally? THIS IS A HOSTILE TAKEOVER. You are either blind and ignorant or your collaborating with it. Which is it?

 

[bluealberta]

You call it selling out, I call it getting into the world market instead of being isolationist. Virtually every economic study done on free trade, other than those with a left leaning bent, have said that free trade has been a huge benefit to Canada.

Its impact on workers in all three nations

The authors, Dungan and Murphy (1999), found that, while business sector exports grew quickly, import growth also kept pace. At the same time, the import content per unit of exports also grew markedly, while the domestic content per unit of exports fell.

What did this mean for jobs? Employment (direct and indirect) in export industries rose from 19.6% of total business sector employment in 1989 to 28.3% in 1997. However, the rapid rise in imports displaced (or destroyed) even more employment. The job-displacing effect of imports rose steadily from an equivalent of 21.1% of total business employment in 1989 to 32.7% in 1997. The authors conclude: "imports are displacing 'relatively' more jobs than exports are adding" (Dungan and Murphy 1999).

What did this mean in terms of actual jobs created and destroyed? It is a simple matter to derive these numbers from Dungan and Murphy's data (see Figure 3-B). The result is striking. Between 1989 and 1997, 870,700 export jobs were created, but during the same period 1,147,100 jobs were destroyed by imports. Thus, Canada's trade boom resulted in a net destruction of 276,000 jobs.

And you just confirmed all my previous allegations against you in that you are totally inflexible and intolerant in your views. If you think that these people are honestly out to destroy the country, then I feel sorry for you. And as far as I am concerned, the left wing and Liberals in this country have systematically destroyed this country and its international reputation over the last 25 years, starting with Trudeau.

Explain to me how having over half of our remaining manufacturing base now foreign owned give us an 'edge'. Explain to me how it is getting into the world market by signing on to terms that we MUST provide 2/3rd of our oil and gas production exclusively to the US irregardless if we can or can not meet our own domestic market 1st. Explain how from June 30, 1985 to June 30, 2001 over 13,000 Canadian companies have been sold to foreigners and the dollar figure of companies sold from 1999 was DOUBLE of 1998, itself a record. Explain how it is an advantage that US shareholders can sue any and all government jurisdictions from municipal all the way up to federal if they pass any law that interferes with their profits such as trying to secure our water, communications or transportation makes Canada an investment choice and not a takeover target.

Are you completely out of your mind Blue? Are you not concerned with the loss of our destiny? It is only a matter of time before companies like Shaw and Rodgers are taken over by conglomerates.

How about the CNR, majority US owned? CP has been split into 5 companies to 'maximize the profits of stakeholder' well there is no stake holders only shareholders and under 'National treatment clause' US shareholders have the same rights as a Canadian born citizen. Where does THAT fit in to be compete globally? THIS IS A HOSTILE TAKEOVER. You are either blind and ignorant or your collaborating with it. Which is it?

Unlike you, not afraid of the world and its markets. Are you telling me that Candian companies cannot compete globally? Part of the problem has been, and continues to be, high tax rates on corporations which encourages/forces them to move to other less taxing markets. Yet, all I hear from the left is the continual chatter about how corporations should not have lower tax rates, blah blah blah. If we have corps in Canada who are attractive to not only Canadian but international investors, that is beneficial to Canada. When we have corps who produec overpriced commodities with limited markets, then there is no incentive to invest in these companies, the investment dollars and resulting jobs created from this investment goes elsewhere, and we lose jobs. There is no doubt that Free Trade has forced us to become more competitive, but I believe we can compete on the world market.

If Free Trade was so bad, and seeing has how Chretien campaigned against it, and seeing as how the Liberals have been in power since 1993, then why in the hell have they not cancelled the agreement? Could it be that they campaigned against something that they agreed with? Keep in mind that the 1998 election was about free trade, and the conservatives won handily. The 1993 election was about other issues, but the Liberals still campaigned against it. :twisted:

 

[Scape]

RE: Why Conservatives Sho

Harper on the USA

 

[Scape]

Unlike you, not afraid of the world and its markets. Are you telling me that Candian companies cannot compete globally?

Did you see me say that? I SAID CANADA IS UP FOR SALE. Clearly you do not want to understand that or your not capable of understanding. So I will ask again which is it?

Yet, all I hear from the left is the continual chatter about how corporations should not have lower tax rates, blah blah blah.

What the hell are you talking about? Is this a dodge? Every time you run into an idea they you don't like/understand it is 'left'? Smarten up, take accountability! Did you check in to any of the facts presented and come up with at least a scrap of evidence to support your ludicrous claims?

If we have corps in Canada who are attractive to not only Canadian but international investors, that is beneficial to Canada.

Oh really then! How many markets in the US are majority foreign owned? ZIP! Your logic is worthless.

When we have corps who produec overpriced commodities with limited markets, then there is no incentive to invest in these companies, the investment dollars and resulting jobs created from this investment goes elsewhere, and we lose jobs.

We lost over 276,000 how many more to we need to lose? Nneed I remind you that the lions share of losses were in the manufacturing base. You know, the high paying jobs with benefits. And that job growth we did get, well have you noticed a lot of Tim Horten's around?

There is no doubt that Free Trade has forced us to become more competitive, but I believe we can compete on the world market.

vs who, Botswana? How can we compete when our manufacturing base is outsourced to US who then sell it to China?

If Free Trade was so bad, and seeing has how Chretien campaigned against it, and seeing as how the Liberals have been in power since 1993, then why in the hell have they not cancelled the agreement?

Good question WHY DIDN'T YOU DEMAND ANSWERS FROM THEM?

 

[bluealberta]

There is no getting anwers from Liberals, Scape. You ought to know that.

One of the things that separates Eastern Canada from Western Canada is that free trade has been very good for us, as we have over the years shifted our trade patterns from east/west to north/south. The west, and Alberta, has benefitted from free trade. Why the east hasn't, well you can answer that. Maybe it is just because we in the west recognise opportunity when it is there and go for it, instead of wating for government to do it for us. And yes, I will include BC and Sask in this statement, all three provinces have benefited. And I think that scares the hell out of eastern canada, seeing the fiscal power shift from Ontario to the west.

 

[Scape]

Excuse me? The west BENEFITED? Oh, so the closing of the American border to Canadian beef—costing the Canadian industry $7 billion—and the imposition of $4 billion in U.S. softwood-lumber duties was a good thing!!

The east has done better than that, like Nova Scotia off shore oil going strait to US markets and exploration being abandoned. Talk about being ridden like a horse and put away wet! Yeah, we won big didn't we under Chapter 11 didn't we? National treatment was a real winner for us to allowing US stockholders the same rights and freedoms as Canadian citizens, I mean why invade when you can just buy the country?

 

[bluealberta]

Excuse me? The west BENEFITED? Oh, so the closing of the American border to Canadian beef—costing the Canadian industry $7 billion—and the imposition of $4 billion in U.S. softwood-lumber duties was a good thing!!

The east has done better than that, like Nova Scotia off shore oil going strait to US markets and exploration being abandoned. Talk about being ridden like a horse and put away wet! Yeah, we won big didn't we under Chapter 11 didn't we? National treatment was a real winner for us to allowing US stockholders the same rights and freedoms as Canadian citizens, I mean why invade when you can just buy the country?

Perhaps if the Liberals had not been so stupid and big mouthed in their hatred of the US, then the BSE and lumber disputes would not have been so bad. Remember that old saying, don't take a knife to a gun fight, and whether we like it or not, the US has a gun, they are that big. The BSE crisis has also made Canada, and in particular Alberta realize there are other options, such as having Alberta owned packing plants to process Alberta beef for export to the rest of the world. The last report on this indicated that once these get on stream, even if the border does not reopen, the Alberta market will be healthy again. And keep in mind, their judicial system is a lot different than our politically appointed system, and that one judge has effectively delayed the opening of the border. But the real point is, what have the Liberals and the government done to make our case? Alberta politicians have made more presentations to the US than have our federal politicians.

And hey, you want to think that Alberta lost in Free Trade, go ahead, it just keeps idiots like you out of our way when we actually do business. Do you not understand that Alberta has one of, if not the best, economies in North America? How on earth do you think we keep providing up to $12 billion per year in transfer payments to the rest of Canada? Because we don't know what we are doing? Why are people flocking to Alberta? It must be because we have no idea of what we're doing, right? We make deals with the US all the time. Maybe Canada should take a hint. Learn from best practices, learn from those who actually have no debt, no sales tax, and the lowest income tax rates in the country. But then, that must really piss everyone in the east off too, I suppose. Good. :twisted:

 

[zenfisher]

Now wait am minute Blue...wasn't it you who brought up the fact that the Liberals did not do away with the GST and NAFTA after they had promised to do so at the beginning of their reign. Now your singing the praises of Free Trade...Wouldn't that be a ... contridiction in your political philosophy.