Why Catholic isn't Christian.
- Thread starter Graeme
- Start date
pastafarian said:
So you have read the Bible then?
would you not agree that the scriputres which I quoted are meant how I used them.
Matthew 6:7,8 “When ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him”
Don't pray repetitively (ie the rosary)
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1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”
Don't pray to anyone but God through Jesus
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Matthew 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
Ephesians 2:8,9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Matthew 4:16 “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
Matthew 10:28 “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
Salvation is accepting Jesus as your savior, he is the only way to heaven, getting to heaven has nothing to do with "being good", and once you are saved you can never lose your salvation.
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Considering these were the passages I was referring to when I said that I KNOW I am not wrong, I wouldn't say I was not being extreme or somehow big headed, these are not hard scriptures to understand.
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Seeing as you presume that I am an uneducated bible thumper who might as well had run in to a book about the flying spegetti monster and decided to believe it is true, I doubt you will listen to much of what I have to say anyway, at least not on this subject.
Speaking of presumptions Barbara Thierings "Jesus the Man" is a very presumptuous book, Many of her assertions are completely blind. I will give her this though she did a better job than "the davinci code" on the other hand she was trying to write it as if it was true and neither Dan Brown nor Michael, Richard, or Henry (The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail authors) were really trying to do the same.
One of the most notable assertions that Barbara makes in Jesus the Man is that scrolls mentioning the Teacher of Righteousness were written in the first century, Most scholars believe it was a much earlier date.
Not to metion the assertions that Jesus was married twice (Mary Magdalene first who he divorced (despite his beliefs) then I can't remember the second woman’s name, She also says he had 3 kids.
The reason you would have trouble following that book is because it has no continuity. Not because of a lack of knowledge.
I find it funny that you bring up Tom Harpur with Barbara because they write nearly polar opposite when it comes to Jesus.
Tom Harpur writes (and I am not sure but I think believes) that Jesus never existed, and that Jesus was just a way of saying that god is in every person.
-- One thing's for certain, Tom and Barbara can't both be right.
.
Graeme said:
You might note that there are contradictions in scripture about the value of faith versus works. No doubt with your knowledge of scripture you can readily locate them, but I'll give you a hint. In Romans, Paul cites the example of Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son Isaac and concludes that Abraham's faith makes him righteous in the eyes of god. The Epistle of James cites exactly the same story and comes to the opposite conclusion, that it was what Abraham did that justifies his righteousness.
Here's another one: Romans 2 says that those who obey the law (meaning the Jewish law in this context) will be declared righteous, Romans 3 says that no one who obeys the Jewish law will be declared righteous, what you need is faith, and you can have that without obeying the law.
There's one more too, in Matthew, in which Jesus apparently endorses works over faith, and a very odd situation in Mark involving Jesus and a bottle of perfume in which he appears to be saying "do as I say, not as I do." No doubt you're familiar with it.
Nobody can win a game of swapping biblical citations in support of a point of view. As I said off the top, the Bible is a sufficiently large and complex document that you can find support in it for almost any position you'd care to take.
Dexter Sinister said:
Umm, The passages don't contradict, I don't even think you have read them if you think they are talking about salvation through works. Therefore I don't think you even found them yourself, I would bet you found them on some anti-christian website.
I will just post them here as it is pretty obvious.
It is Romans 4 you were first talking about, so you can read it for yourself (although I am sure you already knew that.)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." ((Ref Gen. 15:6 for where the scripture says that))
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (If you work, you are owed what you recieve it is not a gift)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(if you don't work, but trust (believe) God - who decides what is wrong - than your faith is counted as your righteousness.
So yet again it says you have to believe in what God says to be righteous.
Romans 2 is that if one were to follow the law perfectly than they would be judged accordingly, even if they never knew the law (God's Law)
Romans 3 NO one is perfect and therefore the only way to be saved is through faith
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
So thanks for finding some more scripture to back up
Ephesians 2:8,9
Next time would you just look up the passages yourself, as to not waste my time.
You're not worth the trouble of knocking down anymore Graeme. You don't even know when you've been knocked down.
I will give you this, as Romans 1 says if you are PERFECT and commit no sins, you can go to heaven. But that is not Salvation as you would have nothing to be saved from. That is perfect righteousness in the eyes of God.
But no one is perfect (except Jesus)
But no one is perfect (except Jesus)
Graeme said:
just a little correction- there are lots of different types of christianity, and catholicism IS one of them. the differences you state are not between the catholic beliefs and christianity, but rather the differences between catholicism and orthodoxy groups of Christianity, and the Protestant groups of Christianity. all of which, however different from one another, and however "wrong" you think of some of their beliefs, are still Christian.
Re: RE: Why Catholic isn't Christian.
You're accusing me of incoherence? You're so sure you're right you won't even consider the possibility that you might be wrong, and that's the great failure of religious faith. You think you have absolute knowledge, with no test in reality; you can't even perceive that the Christian scriptures are internally inconsistent. You're pathetic, and I'm through talking with you.
Graeme said:
You're accusing me of incoherence? You're so sure you're right you won't even consider the possibility that you might be wrong, and that's the great failure of religious faith. You think you have absolute knowledge, with no test in reality; you can't even perceive that the Christian scriptures are internally inconsistent. You're pathetic, and I'm through talking with you.
OK Graeme, I'll throw in my $0.02. Yes I have read the Bible in several translations and have studied some parts more than others. I am in no way an expert on it, or even a particularly knowledgeable amateur.
Just so my point of view is clear, I'll say off the bat that I take Tom Harpur's view of the exsitence of Christ as a historical figure, which is that their is nowhere near enough evidence to support that assertion, and even if it were partly true, the figure has been mythologized to the point where historical speculation is pointless.
The Bible in general, and the New Testament in particular, represents the endpoint of a 1200 year (give or take) process of selection, editing, censorship and ascribing of authorship that has been, by turns, politically motivated, arbitrary and dictatorial.
The translations, while generally apparently consistent, are still very contentious with respect to many critical points, making much interpretation highly suspect. For example, your assertion:
No, I would not agree with your interpretation at all.The emphasis is typically placed on the word "vain", rather than on "repetition". The Catholic Church enjoins people to pray each prayer of the rosary as a new interaction with God, the spirit fresh and completely open in communion with God, each time, with each word of the prayer being said as if for the first time. that people don't pray this way...well, if Christianity were easy, Christians would be a force for good in the world.
"Deulling Bible quotes" is a child's game. The people who think "works" are important like to quote James:
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?” -James 2:14
So I've neutralised your quote and we're no further ahead. If you want to know what makes a Christian, go to the source. (It's not that misogynist, prudish nutbar Paul, either).
You have to look at the words of Jesus, who devotes a whole chapter to works, because, if you had read AND understood the words of Jesus, you would know that words and faith are not separate,. Works are the manifestaions of the Word (Logos) through the Holy Spirit:
Being a Christian has nothing to do with what opinions a person happens to hold.
" For every tree is known by his own fruit."
As CS Lewis has said going inside a church no more makes a man a Christian than going into a garage would make him an automobile.
Graeme your smugness in the superiority of the simplistic view of christianity you espouse reminds me of a scene in the movie "A Fish Called Wanda":
Just so my point of view is clear, I'll say off the bat that I take Tom Harpur's view of the exsitence of Christ as a historical figure, which is that their is nowhere near enough evidence to support that assertion, and even if it were partly true, the figure has been mythologized to the point where historical speculation is pointless.
The Bible in general, and the New Testament in particular, represents the endpoint of a 1200 year (give or take) process of selection, editing, censorship and ascribing of authorship that has been, by turns, politically motivated, arbitrary and dictatorial.
The translations, while generally apparently consistent, are still very contentious with respect to many critical points, making much interpretation highly suspect. For example, your assertion:
No, I would not agree with your interpretation at all.The emphasis is typically placed on the word "vain", rather than on "repetition". The Catholic Church enjoins people to pray each prayer of the rosary as a new interaction with God, the spirit fresh and completely open in communion with God, each time, with each word of the prayer being said as if for the first time. that people don't pray this way...well, if Christianity were easy, Christians would be a force for good in the world.
"Deulling Bible quotes" is a child's game. The people who think "works" are important like to quote James:
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?” -James 2:14
So I've neutralised your quote and we're no further ahead. If you want to know what makes a Christian, go to the source. (It's not that misogynist, prudish nutbar Paul, either).
You have to look at the words of Jesus, who devotes a whole chapter to works, because, if you had read AND understood the words of Jesus, you would know that words and faith are not separate,. Works are the manifestaions of the Word (Logos) through the Holy Spirit:
- Luke 6
Being a Christian has nothing to do with what opinions a person happens to hold.
" For every tree is known by his own fruit."
As CS Lewis has said going inside a church no more makes a man a Christian than going into a garage would make him an automobile.
Graeme your smugness in the superiority of the simplistic view of christianity you espouse reminds me of a scene in the movie "A Fish Called Wanda":
pastafarian said:
First thank you for the sensible reply.
I was actually expecting this argument as the very first thing that would be said on the subject.
Most people misunderstand the word vain they think it somehow means "self-righteousness" or "pride", when in this context it most certainly means usless or having no real value. We can look at other translations to see this: NIV: 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
In Catholicism it is believed that you must say a number of hail Marys and Our Fathers, to be forgiven for something. Which makes it obvious they are expecting to be heard for "their many words" (KJV) more over, the rosary came straight from the heathen religions they are talking about in the verse.
then -> 8 do not be like them... (KJV)
and why is it vain (useless or with no real value).. because : ...For your Father knows the things you have need before you ask Him.
many Catholic Priests will not deny this scripture either. One has told me that it doesn't matter what is in the bible, because the bible is not enough. (I showed him some passages that said otherwise, and he promptly left the conversation) other than him the rest are pretty receptive. Some I have spoken with don't touch rosaries due to these scriptures (they knew long before I brought it up to them).
pastafarian said:
this one I am kind of supprised you would quote, because no where does it talk about salvation, instead it talks about faith.
it does say "can faith alone save him?", but that isn't salvation, that is saying if you are in the middle of a lake and you are going to drown, will faith alone save you from drowning, the answer is no you must do what you can to save yourself. The context is after. More over you may be saved, and your faith may die, they are two different things.
The example given is 21"Was not Abraham our father justified by works." and the answer is yes, but did not have salvation because of his works, for that he had to believe what God told him (Romans 4).
and then if we go down to 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Justified is obviously not salvation. Faith is not salvation. You can have little faith and still have salvation. In fact the Bible talks about this sort of thing.
pastafarian said:
I never said it isn't good to be as good a person as you can, and to follow in "Jesus' footsteps" what I said is, that doesn't give you salvation.
I am sorry you wrote all that without the understanding that faith and salvation are two different things.
But thank you for the serious attempt.
You really need not try to insult me though. I am very far from a "blind" follower. In fact I get slack from those who think I am sometimes too liberal with some things.
Re: RE: Why Catholic isn't Christian.
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Clearly you chose to leave part of my post out, by doing so you have changed the meaning of my post, as many people do when they are quoting the bible. Leave out a sentence and it changes the whole meaning.
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Exactly![/quote]Calliope said:
Graeme said:
Clearly you chose to leave part of my post out, by doing so you have changed the meaning of my post, as many people do when they are quoting the bible. Leave out a sentence and it changes the whole meaning.
Why does it change the meaning?
You had that in quotes. I agree with the rest of your post as well that they are all christian based religions.
but a CHRISTIAN is a follower of Jesus Christ, Believing him to be the Son of God and the savior of human souls form sin and death.
I didn't change the meaning of your post at all.
You had that in quotes. I agree with the rest of your post as well that they are all christian based religions.
but a CHRISTIAN is a follower of Jesus Christ, Believing him to be the Son of God and the savior of human souls form sin and death.
I didn't change the meaning of your post at all.
Vannie said:
Well I think it is fair to say that a CHRISTIAN religion must follow the bible, especially for the most important aspect - salvation. There may be differing interpretations, but on doctrines which the Bible does not leave much room for discussion a denomination should not contradict its source for truth. If a denomination does this, it ceases to be a religion in the same category as denominations which hold true to the Bible. While it may be BASED on the Bible it is no more correct than a movie "based" on real life events.
Obviously this is not black and white, but in the case of Roman Catholicism it has most certainly crossed any gray line there may be.
I would not consider Jehovah’s witness to be Christian, nor Mormon, but they are both, BASED on Christianity.
Graeme, the fact is if anyone isn't following Chrsitian doctrine it is you. Jesus himself said "Judge not that ye be not judged" yet you believe yourself to be the judge of who and who is not Christian.